203 réponses à ce sujet

[Stalky24]

 Ive been wondering. Its great game, it really is. 
I am enjoying it a lot and I dont regret purchasing it.
So why do people hate this game so much?

DISCLAIMER!
I am not stating ANY opinions about quality of any part of game
discussed in this text (even if it sounds like that). This isnt supposed to start war about
if you like VO or not or anything else. Also, im not native english speaker, so bare with me

MINOR SPOILERS WARNING

I finally came to conclusion why.

DRAGON AGE 2 abandoned the trademark idea
DRAGON AGE series are Old School RPG

Thats it.
Dragon Age was modern, but old school RPG,
DA2 dropped the old school part, lets see...

Character creation
You created and developed your unique, silent character,
so he could have almost any personality or history RP players wanted.
DA2 has set race and origin, your character has a voice.
It allows much more personal and developed story, where 
your character is real and part of society, rather then avatar of the outsider.
It has its huge advantages and I love listening to the dialogues and when
you tune them right, you can have a lot of fun with them. But it sets away
the player... not knowing what my character is actually going to say is
taking me from the perfect merge of him and me. 

Story
Story was epic adventure to save world from a dragon (and zombies).
Dragon Age was adult fairy tale, fightning unknown and great evil from hell.
It was epic quest for huge, epic game, where plot was old school, but world modern. 
DA2's story is more modern and personal. You dont have set objective, 
you are just trying to survive. To escape blight, to survive between refugees
and beggars, your first great expedition is basicly robing graves, not
searching for the sacred artifact that could cure lord of the land. 
You just see what outcomes your actions have and act based on that,
nothing drives you forward as trying to get your revenge/kill boss/save princess.

Combat&Builds
Old school combat was slow, tactical, you have to know your characters, your abilities,
you had to tinker your party and your character the way they would cooperate
as good as possible. (this actually wasnt delivered as much as it is in other,
older RPGs, rogue and warrior could be built 2-4 different ways, still there was
some tinkering involved... but I remember playing Neverwinter Nights and
spending great amount of time to get best of my build for my playstyle). 
DA2 combat is modern, fast paced, attack animations have speed and style of anime characters,
where they are just "cool" to watch, rather then ressambling something human could do. You
cant issue and manage every action since they happen so fast. And you dont really have to, 
except reassuring everyone attacks same target. You can focus on character you want to play 
and just play it, have fun with it, run around, kite, get emeny towards wall, use your spells etc...
Builds are adjusted to that, they needed to be. You want to use meele combat? Pick those talents.
You want to use crossbow? Those. Again, tinkering took step back, but still there is some process
involved with taking upgrades (this doesnt count for mage, that can be built tons of ways) etc.
It was necessary step to keep game the way it is, yet, it is not old school style anymore.

Conversation
Conversation system has evolved from old times quite a lot too. 
Now, its focused on information you want to deliver, rahter then on what youre actually saying. 
You know when you are stating opinion, you know when youre investigating, you know what
tone your answer has. It is, again, necessary change for fast gameplay of DA2. You cant permit
wasting time on thinking about multiple answers and their possible outcome, you need information,
you clearly see how you can get it.
Oldschool system showed you options. You just decided what you want to say, not knowing how 
people are going to respond, or better, if they are going to respond. You try to investigate, they say
its none of my business and leave. You had to drive the way of conversation and understand each
way or you get lost. It is why people spent so much time in conversation trees. 

Conclusion
Bioware has created great, but modern, RPG with modern combat, modern storyline, modern converastion system, modern character and its developement, all adjusted for style of todays games, leaving old school behind
for good. And thats what pisses off so many people.

[Nightnight]

cool story bro!

[Riloux]

By George, I think he's onto something!

[Warlokki]

Old School RPGs time is over... at least for now. Maybe they'll be fashionable laterm but ATM, they're not. Get over it.

[17thknight]

It's possible that's why people HATE it. The emotional reaction from a lot of people (including me) is, in part, because they completely snubbed what was the original core idea of Dragon Age: Origins. Hell, the descriptions on this very website still say "The Spiritual Successor to Baldur's Gate".

But, still, there are core problems with the game that go beyond that. So don't dismiss criticism as gut-reaction hate, because that certainly has nothing to do with problems like the hideous elf designs or the re-use of dungeons/caves.

[17thknight]

Warlokki wrote...

Old School RPGs time is over... at least for now. Maybe they'll be fashionable laterm but ATM, they're not. Get over it.

And yet DA:O was one of their best-selling games of all time and was specifically built around the concept of being an old-school RPG.

Not only are they not dead, they're what RPG gamers WANT.

[vhatever]

Charater creation-- even old school RPGs most times forced you to play a specfici character, not make up your own race/etc. Mostlyjust picked class-- or didn't pick anything.

Story -- yes, the story does seem much less epic and more clumsy in DA2. Things just kinda happen and you are piecing together as to why.

combat-- other than matric move attacks, the actual combat is far more difficult than DAO on DA2. Most of what you say here is completely debunked if you play on nightmare-- you will be forced to cookie cutter with certain skills, you will have to have a dedicated healer, a tank, and then DPS/utility.

Conversation -- although in most cases you cant directly start conversation with your companions in DA2, I see very little different in the interraction/conversation.

So you got 1 out 4.

Well, I'll give ya 2/4 cause I'm feeling generous. and you got 2 of them "partially" right.

Modifié par vhatever, 11 mars 2011 - 12:48 .

[Nightnight]

vhatever wrote...

Charater creation-- even old school RPGs most times forced you to play a specfici character, not make up your own race/etc. Mostlyjust picked class-- or didn't pick anything.

Story -- yes, the story does seem much less epic and more clumsy in DA2. Things just kinda happen and you are piecing together as to why.

combat-- other than matric move attacks, the actual combat is far more difficult than DAO on DA2. Most of what you say here is completely debunked if you play on nightmare-- you will be forced to cookie cutter with certain skills, you will have to have a dedicated healer, a tank, and then DPS/utility.

Conversation -- although in most cases you cant directly start conversation with your companions in DA2, I see very little different in the interraction/conversation.

So you got 1 out 4.

Well, I'll give ya 2/4 cause I'm feeling generous. and you got 2 of them "partially" right.

DA2 story is just plain boring. The pace is kind of hard to follow at times. Regarding the combat, DA2 combat is more difficult because of the clumsy fixed camera on characters. DAO has a free panning camera that allows me to plan my tactics. I want to hit that archer a screen and a half away. Woops, can't do that. Cause I cant' see him.

[Stalky24]

vhatever wrote...

Charater creation-- even old school RPGs most times forced you to play a specfici character, not make up your own race/etc. Mostlyjust picked class-- or didn't pick anything.

Story -- yes, the story does seem much less epic and more clumsy in DA2. Things just kinda happen and you are piecing together as to why.

combat-- other than matric move attacks, the actual combat is far more difficult than DAO on DA2. Most of what you say here is completely debunked if you play on nightmare-- you will be forced to cookie cutter with certain skills, you will have to have a dedicated healer, a tank, and then DPS/utility.

Conversation -- although in most cases you cant directly start conversation with your companions in DA2, I see very little different in the interraction/conversation.

So you got 1 out 4.

Well, I'll give ya 1.5/4 cause I'm feeling generous.

Characters - yes, there are certain games with pre-set characters, but its not what Old School RPG as trademark represents. So I got this right.

Combat - its true I play on hard and not on nightmare. Also, I never stated its easier, I just said its different and less tactical for the gamer, who can just play as character and manage party minimaly. So I think I got this one too.

Conversation - I wasnt talking entirely about companion conversation, even though its also one of the points. I was talking about what conversation is about. So I got another one too. 

Modifié par Stalky24, 11 mars 2011 - 12:53 .

[Warlokki]

17thknight wrote...

Warlokki wrote...

Old School RPGs time is over... at least for now. Maybe they'll be fashionable laterm but ATM, they're not. Get over it.

And yet DA:O was one of their best-selling games of all time and was specifically built around the concept of being an old-school RPG.

Not only are they not dead, they're what RPG gamers WANT.

Not dead? How many old school RPGs there are ATM? How many are coming this or next year? With higher profile than some small niche.
And are they want RPG gamers want? I don't. I doubt all want them. Me, i'd like something new, combine elements from old school with new stuff or style (like DA2, though it has a bunch of flaws)
And yes, i've played old school RPGs, i own some (Fallouts, Baldur's Gates, KOTOR, DAO if you count that, others).

[17thknight]

vhatever wrote...

Charater creation-- even old school RPGs most times forced you to play a specfici character, not make up your own race/etc. Mostlyjust picked class-- or didn't pick anything.

That's not true, games that let you make your own character:
Baldur's Gate, Baldur's Gate 2, Icewinde Dale, Icewind Dale 2, the entire Might and Magic series, Fallout, Fallout 2, Temple of Elemental Evil, Aracanum, the entire D&D Gold and Silver series (I forget how many games there were), etc.

Yeah, on consoles you're forced to play one guy, but the greatest PC RPG's always had a wide-array of choices for characters.

[lzb2811]

vhatever wrote...

Charater creation-- even old school RPGs most times forced you to play a specfici character, not make up your own race/etc. Mostlyjust picked class-- or didn't pick anything.

Story -- yes, the story does seem much less epic and more clumsy in DA2. Things just kinda happen and you are piecing together as to why.

combat-- other than matric move attacks, the actual combat is far more difficult than DAO on DA2. Most of what you say here is completely debunked if you play on nightmare-- you will be forced to cookie cutter with certain skills, you will have to have a dedicated healer, a tank, and then DPS/utility.

Conversation -- although in most cases you cant directly start conversation with your companions in DA2, I see very little different in the interraction/conversation.

So you got 1 out 4.

Well, I'll give ya 2/4 cause I'm feeling generous. and you got 2 of them "partially" right.

He means bioware D&D RPG, not diablo series, so your first statement is absolutely wrong

No comment on the story.

Have you play BG, BG2, NWN, NWN2 in the highest difficulty? Then you can made the comparison

As for the conversation, there're good and bad. I like the way you know which dialog is good and which is bad. But I hate they way they simplified it that much. Clicking "****** off, Get out of my face" and having Hawk saying:" I don't agree with you, no deal" makes no sense.

[silver-crescent]

The way I see it, DA2 hate on the forums can probably be divided into:
60% - people pissed it's not a DA:O clone (a lot of which could probably have been avoided if they'd just called the game Dragon Age: something, instead of making it sound like it's an actual direct sequel)
20% - PC gamers annoyed it is too much console-y (DA:O sold more on consoles so it's not exactly surprising they'd do this)
20% - valid, unbiased complaints about its quality as a game (recycled environments, etc)

[17thknight]

simfamSP wrote...

Oh c'mon EA rushed Bioware into doing DA2. You have to give Bioware ALOT of merit, and credit for creating a great game under EA's pressure. You can't blame Bioware for rushing, or for 'spoiling the game.' EA did that in hopes for TOR to get a good audience.

They created a sub-par game that looks exactly like what you agree it was: Rushed. They never should have sold to EA *sigh* we all knew this would happen.

[Lotion Soronarr]

I don't mind the story or character creation of DA2...

I mind the gameplay - combat, interface, dialogue wheel, inventory...

[Lord_Darkmoon]

Why does everything have to be simplified? Don't people want to think anymore while playing or invest time in something?
Somehow this alle reminds of the movie Idiocracy... We are all cheeringly running into degeneration instead of evolution...

[silver-crescent]

Lord_Darkmoon wrote...

Why does everything have to be simplified? Don't people want to think anymore while playing or invest time in something?
Somehow this alle reminds of the movie Idiocracy... We are all cheeringly running into degeneration instead of evolution...

That's a matter of perspective. Games don't need to be over-complicated, and being over-complicated doesn't make them better.

I'm sure a lot of people didn't like the tiring inventory managment DA:O had, or that you had to pick like ten different pieces of equipment for each companion, or that there were tens of attributes, some of which barely mattered for anything, or that despite the huge number of skills/spells, the vast majority of them were pretty damn useless.

[keyip]

17thknight wrote...
And yet DA:O was one of their best-selling games of all time and was specifically built around the concept of being an old-school RPG.

Great selling game but a lot of the people I talked to got bored and never finished it.

[Lumikki]

To OP, Yeah that's the reason why some people are mad, because abandon of old school RPG.

Of course that is not reason to say that game is failure. Because it could even be excelent game without the Old school RPG. So, been mad doesn't justify bad behavior.

Complexity sake of complexity isn't any better than simplifying sake of simplifying. Every feature should exist for purpose, not just fill empty space, so that it gives illusion of complexity. To really have a choise, the choises has to be about equal ways wanted and have meaning.

Modifié par Lumikki, 11 mars 2011 - 01:38 .

[DarkAngel1979]

Every time I see 'old school', my mind automatically translates it to 'obsolete'. Which is what it is. People need to stop wanting to replay the same game over and over with just a cosmetic change on the companions and locations.

[gecos]

Lumikki wrote...

To OP, Yeah that's the reason why some people are mad, because abandon of old school RPG.

Of course that is not reason to say that game is failure. Because it could even be excelent game without the Old school RPG. So, been mad doesn't justify bad behavior.

Complexity sake of complexity isn't any better than simplifying sake of simplifying. Every feature should exist for purpose, not just fill empty space, so that it gives illusion of complexity. To really have a choise, the choises has to be about equal ways wanted and have meaning.

Let's have just one example, the inventory system. According to you, it was so complex, so bad looking and so ankward that it had to be dropped for this modern, even futuristic new one which also happens to be very simple. Of course, it had nothing to do with saving time and consequently money, it's just that those "old timers" that enjoy cRPGs don't get it that it's now 2011.

Modifié par gecos, 11 mars 2011 - 01:46 .

[Lord Cheetah]

keyip wrote...

17thknight wrote...
And yet DA:O was one of their best-selling games of all time and was specifically built around the concept of being an old-school RPG.

Great selling game but a lot of the people I talked to got bored and never finished it.

I imagine people not finishing the story, the combat is really boring in the beginning, i almost quitted the game after the origin story although the good story kept me going (Ostagar fight was epic). The origins combat system is very outdated, only the mages are not so boring in combat. Luckily Dragon Age II combat is more exciting while still being RPG stylish, can't believe people are missing the origins combat although i agree that origins story telling was more fun than that of DA II   (crowning a King or queen makes more sense and is cooler then just help the local mages/templars and because of a weird chain reaction, change the whole world, for example).

[keyip]

DarkAngel1979 wrote...

Every time I see 'old school', my mind automatically translates it to 'obsolete'. Which is what it is. People need to stop wanting to replay the same game over and over with just a cosmetic change on the companions and locations.

True, old school rpgs needed a great investment in time. The older I get the more I appreciate games you can just pick up and play. 4 years ago I never thought I'd say such a thing, but there you go.

[Darji]

vhatever wrote...

Charater creation-- even old school RPGs most times forced you to play a specfici character, not make up your own race/etc. Mostlyjust picked class-- or didn't pick anything.

Story -- yes, the story does seem much less epic and more clumsy in DA2. Things just kinda happen and you are piecing together as to why.

combat-- other than matric move attacks, the actual combat is far more difficult than DAO on DA2. Most of what you say here is completely debunked if you play on nightmare-- you will be forced to cookie cutter with certain skills, you will have to have a dedicated healer, a tank, and then DPS/utility.

Conversation -- although in most cases you cant directly start conversation with your companions in DA2, I see very little different in the interraction/conversation.

So you got 1 out 4.

Well, I'll give ya 2/4 cause I'm feeling generous. and you got 2 of them "partially" right.

The combat on nightmare in DA2 is much harder because its just cheap with these spwns. Its no sign of tactical "greatness" if you only can raise the difficultty because of cheap spwns.  Origins on the other hand was way more tactical because the combat was not cheap but tactical. Yes it was slower but because of the slower pace you also could play it more tactical. And yes it was easier because you actually could play again tactical.

In DA2 you die alot because each first envcounter is just a guessing game. It all depends on how the new spawn set and not how well you play. Also the lack of first surprise attacks is again less tactical than it was in origins.

Also kiteing enemies has nothig to do with tactical combat or have you ever seen people kiteing enemies in real life or battles? No you havent. because it would be stupid as hell to do so XD

Modifié par Darji, 11 mars 2011 - 01:56 .