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The reason why people hate DA2 discovered! - Not Rant


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#51
Jackitsu

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morgueanna wrote...

Again and again, Bioware reps have stated they did extensive research into the first game and discovered that some people bought the game and only got a few hours in. They've overwhelmingly used this as an excuse for the changes they've made.


Another one is how you have to play a human now.  MOST people played humans in DA:O, but really so many people were trying to be king/queen that you sometimes had to play through more than once to get it right.

Because Origins was a game WORTH replaying so many times.  I played mostly elves, but I played through every storyline, every race.  There was a point to it.  Here there is no point.

I don't know why they do so much research when they can just look at these forums and know exactly what's what, or matecritic.  This made me lol.

HOW IS THIS EVEN POSSIBLE?  Look at the differences not only in the actual rating score but also the poitive/neutral/negatives at the bottom?  This is basically an ad that says "We're EA/Bioware and we bribe critics."

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#52
brp1410

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This may sounds like a bit of a rant but it saddens me to say that after ME2 and DA2 bioware is no longer the king of rpgs in my opinion. :crying:  sorry about the repost below dont know if i can delete or not.

Modifié par brp1410, 11 mars 2011 - 05:38 .


#53
brp1410

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 This may sounds like a bit of a rant but it saddens me to say that after ME2 and DA2 bioware is no longer the king of rpgs in my opinion. :crying:

#54
pallascedar

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vhatever wrote...
Characters - yes, there are certain games with pre-set characters, but its not what Old School RPG as trademark represents. So I got this right.


In Baldur's Gate you were always a Bhaal Spawn raised by Gorion who grew up in Candlekeep and were childhood friends with Imoen. Your mother was always a crazy priestess who Gorion killed and rescued her child. I'd argue that defines the character as much as Hawke is defined.

The only additional character customization Baldur's Gate had was class (which is a function of Baldur's Gate being based off AD&D, not it's old-school RPGness) and race (which didn't really play a big effect on the story line.) In the DA world, race matters, so they didn't let you pick in order to tell a better story.

I don't really know what everyone's talking about, but BG's character customization, at least as far as the character goes (not basing this off abilities or stats or anything...) is, I would argue, not that much stronger than DA2's.

Modifié par pallascedar, 11 mars 2011 - 05:38 .


#55
CloudOfShadows

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Stalky24 wrote...


Combat&Builds
Old school combat was slow, tactical, you have to know your characters, your abilities,
you had to tinker your party and your character the way they would cooperate
as good as possible. (this actually wasnt delivered as much as it is in other,
older RPGs, rogue and warrior could be built 2-4 different ways, still there was
some tinkering involved... but I remember playing Neverwinter Nights and
spending great amount of time to get best of my build for my playstyle). 
DA2 combat is modern, fast paced, attack animations have speed and style of anime characters,
where they are just "cool" to watch, rather then ressambling something human could do. You
cant issue and manage every action since they happen so fast. And you dont really have to, 
except reassuring everyone attacks same target. You can focus on character you want to play 
and just play it, have fun with it, run around, kite, get emeny towards wall, use your spells etc...
Builds are adjusted to that, they needed to be. You want to use meele combat? Pick those talents.
You want to use crossbow? Those. Again, tinkering took step back, but still there is some process
involved with taking upgrades (this doesnt count for mage, that can be built tons of ways) etc.
It was necessary step to keep game the way it is, yet, it is not old school style anymore.


You definitely haven't tried DA2 on nightmare ^^

I would even argue that with the changed handling of 2h weapons and the cross-class combos and of courseless abilities to super-heal (by drinking potions of different strength), DA2 is a lot more tactical than Origins. At least that's how combat feels to me (on Hard). More about combining stuff smartly, and less about waiting for the battle to be over.

#56
shihuandgi

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17thknight wrote...

Warlokki wrote...

Old School RPGs time is over... at least for now. Maybe they'll be fashionable laterm but ATM, they're not. Get over it.


And yet DA:O was one of their best-selling games of all time and was specifically built around the concept of being an old-school RPG.

Not only are they not dead, they're what RPG gamers WANT.


there is still something like drakensang, but everyone keeps ignoring it it seems...

#57
TwistedComplex

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Stalky24 wrote...

Story was epic adventure to save world from a dragon (and zombies).


I'm pretty sure that was one of the weaker parts of DA:O

#58
brownxiii

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Jackitsu wrote...

morgueanna wrote...

Again and again, Bioware reps have stated they did extensive research into the first game and discovered that some people bought the game and only got a few hours in. They've overwhelmingly used this as an excuse for the changes they've made.


Another one is how you have to play a human now.  MOST people played humans in DA:O, but really so many people were trying to be king/queen that you sometimes had to play through more than once to get it right.

Because Origins was a game WORTH replaying so many times.  I played mostly elves, but I played through every storyline, every race.  There was a point to it.  Here there is no point.

I don't know why they do so much research when they can just look at these forums and know exactly what's what, or matecritic.  This made me lol.

HOW IS THIS EVEN POSSIBLE?  Look at the differences not only in the actual rating score but also the poitive/neutral/negatives at the bottom?  This is basically an ad that says "We're EA/Bioware and we bribe critics."


Even now, I am planning on how to play the game 2nd and 3rd time around. What different choices I would try.. I think replayibility is much better than DAO.

In DAO, you play it for an hour for different 6 origins, then the remaining 59 hours of the game is exactly the same all throughout, except for minor things (like going back to where you came from, later in the game). You could choose to help Zathrian or Werewolves, but only the last fight changes in that quest because of that. There is no use trying to make it seem like DAO was an epic game or something. First time I played, it was awesome, but when I started again, it was so boring, but I played again for creating a nice saved game, and tried to see what different playthroughs would give me as a result. I was dissappointed with the "not much different" results I got.

If they had let people choose other races in DA2, and if they were not Bioware, the story would stay the same, and everyone would be happy about choosing other races (this it what pisses me off). But they are Bioware, and they would have to create different stories as well (to do a job complete), when they let different races play as the character. Since they are so detail-oriented, they opted not to add 2 times the story writing time to the whole game, so they made the race fixed. They have a very valid reason to do that.

The critics are able to see why this game is a great game, and I am happy that at least someone is giving Bioware the credit they deserve.

#59
Lord Coake

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Nightnight wrote...


DA2 story is just plain boring. The pace is kind of hard to follow at times. Regarding the combat, DA2 combat is more difficult because of the clumsy fixed camera on characters. DAO has a free panning camera that allows me to plan my tactics. I want to hit that archer a screen and a half away. Woops, can't do that. Cause I cant' see him.


Careful.  Posts like that makes the Woobie show up with a padlock.

#60
aionis

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i have Beaten DAO 4 times have gotten all but ten of the achievements without going for them, have spent 200-300 hours on the game, and allways knew the combat was crap, when DA2 came out the combat is a pause and play wow clone. which honestly is perfect for endless play. the story to DA2 is great, it's simple, a family trying to survive after the events at lothering with the add on of a friend that you met on the way out. i love how you rise up and get stuck in between political views from like the mages and templar and the viscount and the Qun. it's great. i have beaten both games and was about to play another DAO play through... i can't do it. after DA2 the combat is that much better, i just hope they make a website like mass 1 got. "we play mass effect so you don't have to" becuaes i'm through with DAO and DAOA and i want to play DA3. normally users are right and critics are wrong but this game is definately a 8.5 because there are flaws but not enough to drop it to what users have given it, cept the console version because lets face it that is not what anyone wants.

#61
ExiledMimic

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Lord Cheetah wrote...

I imagine people not finishing the story, the combat is really boring in the beginning, i almost quitted the game after the origin story although the good story kept me going (Ostagar fight was epic). The origins combat system is very outdated, only the mages are not so boring in combat. Luckily Dragon Age II combat is more exciting while still being RPG stylish, can't believe people are missing the origins combat although i agree that origins story telling was more fun than that of DA II   (crowning a King or queen makes more sense and is cooler then just help the local mages/templars and because of a weird chain reaction, change the whole worldImage IPB, for example).


I think there needs to be a blend somewhere.  I liked the majority of Origins' combat system, but hated that you had to line up to the pixel to do certain moves.  I also hated that you could sometimes spend whole fights running from target to target and never hitting anything.  Once those two issues were fixed the combat system would have improved by leaps and bounds all on it's own.

A more responsive combat system with less downtime would have made more tactical choices easier to execute without the wind blowing in your direction.  DA2 was a good step forward in several aspects, but the fact that the consoles were so considered for the second one sort of killed tactics some.  And in harder modes the tactical system was VERY welcome (even on the X-Box).

Perhaps there should also be some sense in the splatter-kills.  Virulent Walking Bomb?  BOOM!  Arrows?  Not... so much.  Just saying.

#62
Cobrawar

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Warlokki wrote...

Old School RPGs time is over... at least for now. Maybe they'll be fashionable laterm but ATM, they're not. Get over it.


myth . There is still an audience for old school RPG's. They should be trying to build upon old school rpg's to make them more modern, that is true evolution my friend not this DA2 stuff.

#63
_Nova

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tl;dr

#64
NetBeansAndJava

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I have to agree that there is a massive disconnect with how DAO plays and DA2 plays.

Changing a large portion of your target audience for a sequel sounds like a bad idea to me.  I can understand their need to move in the direction of making the game more accessible to console players, but surely there's a better way than removing much of the tactical options found in the original, such as gear usable by all characters, a good overview camera, and spell combos. 

While I feel this game in general wasn't as good as DAO, I haven't lost faith in the DA franchise.  There's still lots of middle ground between this "modern" style and the classic style that could be exploited in a sequel.  I'm no fan of the new "button masher" style, but there are people who prefer it... so they could find a compromise by having skills that encourage that sort of behavior as well as more tactical skills.  Then players could build their character as tactical or as "mashable" as they so desired.

#65
The Gaming Fiend

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vhatever wrote...

Charater creation-- even old school RPGs most times forced you to play a specfici character, not make up your own race/etc. Mostlyjust picked class-- or didn't pick anything.

Story -- yes, the story does seem much less epic and more clumsy in DA2. Things just kinda happen and you are piecing together as to why.

combat-- other than matric move attacks, the actual combat is far more difficult than DAO on DA2. Most of what you say here is completely debunked if you play on nightmare-- you will be forced to cookie cutter with certain skills, you will have to have a dedicated healer, a tank, and then DPS/utility.

Conversation -- although in most cases you cant directly start conversation with your companions in DA2, I see very little different in the interraction/conversation.

So you got 1 out 4.

Well, I'll give ya 2/4 cause I'm feeling generous. and you got 2 of them "partially" right.



Character creation - They still let you pick your race, class or even subrace and stats, stop kidding yourself, There is no character creation with DA2, there is only picking your haircut and your class.

Story - of course it feels clunky, it doesn't fit together half the time.

combat - Dragon Age 2 has to be on the Max difficulty before actual tactics come into play? Is there only two difficulties or something?

conversation - I know in many older RPGs you could have a bluff option based off a stat, kinda like whats in Oblivion and Fallout, that adds another level of depth to a conversation besides "Good,Silly,****" reactons.

I'll give you a 0/4 because you just glanced at some of his points are tried to brush them off with some half hazard remarks and claim he's a troll, he makes sense, I bought DA:O because it was a more classical RPG, I didn't buy DA2 because it wasn't.

#66
The Gaming Fiend

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Cobrawar wrote...

Warlokki wrote...

Old School RPGs time is over... at least for now. Maybe they'll be fashionable laterm but ATM, they're not. Get over it.


myth . There is still an audience for old school RPG's. They should be trying to build upon old school rpg's to make them more modern, that is true evolution my friend not this DA2 stuff.


It is indeed a huge myth, those people out there who loved classical RPGs have not suddenly vanished, they are there. And the generations who enjoy MMORPGs, they enjoy the classical elements too, the market is there, and it should be tapped.

But someone in the company didn't THINK they were there, I think Bioware didn't do ANY market research into this.

#67
The Gaming Fiend

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A more responsive combat system with less downtime would have made more tactical choices easier to execute without the wind blowing in your direction.  DA2 was a good step forward in several aspects, but the fact that the consoles were so considered for the second one sort of killed tactics some.  And in harder modes the tactical system was VERY welcome (even on the X-Box).

Perhaps there should also be some sense in the splatter-kills.  Virulent Walking Bomb?  BOOM!  Arrows?  Not... so much.  Just saying.


If they seriously just smashed both of them together, it would have been a great combat system.

#68
Vollkeule

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the complexity of DA2 is pretty low. i find this boring. and yes, the mechanics of the game do not improve if you just increase difficulty. DA:O had more in store I think.

That is the reason why i am disapointed. i do not need "old school". I need a complex, interessting gameplay system. But i do not hate DA2, I just wait for other games.

Modifié par Vollkeule, 15 mars 2011 - 11:29 .


#69
Edli

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TwistedComplex wrote...

Stalky24 wrote...

Story was epic adventure to save world from a dragon (and zombies).


I'm pretty sure that was one of the weaker parts of DA:O


I'm pretty sure your wrong. Better kill a dragon and save the world than babysitting a family. It was a big adventure in a world with variety. The underground city of Dwarfs, the tower of mages and the forest of elfs. Cliche? Yes but who cares. It was an epic adventure and a real D&D rpg. The point tc is trying to make.

Modifié par Edli, 15 mars 2011 - 11:32 .


#70
Zanderat

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17thknight wrote...

Warlokki wrote...

Old School RPGs time is over... at least for now. Maybe they'll be fashionable laterm but ATM, they're not. Get over it.


And yet DA:O was one of their best-selling games of all time and was specifically built around the concept of being an old-school RPG.

Not only are they not dead, they're what RPG gamers WANT.

QTF!

#71
Ylvena

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17thknight wrote...

It's possible that's why people HATE it. The emotional reaction from a lot of people (including me) is, in part, because they completely snubbed what was the original core idea of Dragon Age: Origins. Hell, the descriptions on this very website still say "The Spiritual Successor to Baldur's Gate".

But, still, there are core problems with the game that go beyond that. So don't dismiss criticism as gut-reaction hate, because that certainly has nothing to do with problems like the hideous elf designs or the re-use of dungeons/caves.


This.

#72
Nick Fox

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Personally I cant stand words like "streamline", "modern" etc. To me that only says one thing and one thing only, namely destroying/take out anything that is rpg at its finest. To respond to people who say overcomplicating games isnt a good thing, of course not. But OVERSIMPLYFING isnt the answer you're looking for either.
If a company is known for beeing more traditional then of course people expect a sequal to be played out in the same manner with some things added and/or things that wasnt great to be updated to a more functionally level.
Nobody expects or want a dried down version of Diablo or whatever. If that was the case then they'd probably would buy such a game becouse there are no shortage of these around, or at least thats what I would do.
Now when you ****** on your fanbase and certainly know what they expect due to the fact that yoiur eyes are on the dollars and nothing else, then there will be an outcry, wich we now see on a grand scale.
Deserving too, nobody wants "their game" gengre to be taken over by a compleatly diferent one!
If thats so hard to understand then I suggest you go to yourself.

There are those that love's both games, I do however firmly belive there are more that dont.
Either way its clearly a misstake to change a direction without telling your long time fans/consumers before you do.  If the casual player is BW goals by all means go ahead, just show me the courtesy before you do!


For those who say old school rpg is dead, nothing could be further from the truth. The sales from DA shows that and probably is the one thing that keeps DA 2 from beeing a failure in the long run. That said, you cant draw the conclution of those people liking this game however. This is most certainly going to show in the next installment (if there is one) of this franchise. There wont be as many pr oders beforehand is my bet.
Of course this game can be hit among a new fanbase however wich I kind of doubt. Casual players generally isnt all that patcient and loyal and will move on to the next "hot" thing out there in a blink of an eye, much like in politics.
Nothing ever stands and nothing really matters but the money, BW DA O sold and sold extremly well, just dont stare at the dollars becouse in the end, the one who wants it all will be the one without nothing in most cases.

Cant say I hate DA 2 but its far from the title i was expecting and has to many flaws that points to beeing rushed and/or lack of passion for the game. Its an ok game on its own merits nothing more, compared to its preedessor however it is extremly weak in most ares imo.

BW have an identity crisses and doesnt even now it wich is so very sad. stand for something in an era where very few can and will, that will get you money  and respect. You may not be as rich as some others but still far far away from poor!

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#73
The Gaming Fiend

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A good point Nick Fox.

Bioware seems to be tilting on edge exactly what they want to be doing,

RPGs built around game mechanics, with weaving an interesting story through them.

Or going the more Mass Effect big budget hollywood style games.

#74
kongenial

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Well I just played the DA2 demo so I can't comment on the whole story or characters.

But I did play DA:O three times and don't get it why people love this so much. I mean sure, it's a good game with some great moments. But then again there were many flaws. By the time it got tedious for me, not the conversations but the combat. For example I disliked the fact that you were forced to take Alistair with you if you were not to be a tank (when playing without mods). And why did I have to taunt enemies? - Some people said that was streamlined because it's like in WOW and WOW is popular.

The conversations, while mostly really good written and voiced, did not made always sense. Sometimes I did not get it why Sten for example did not like a forceful answer while other times he did. And why didn't it matter in the end if I poisoned the Arl Eamon and was a human hating Dalish?

Origins was far from perfect but I liked it. Baldurs Gate 2 was also far from perfect but I liked it nevertheless. And I hope I'll like DA2 also, despite it being far from perfect.

@shihuandgi

You're right, but Drakensang is pretty "german". I played it as well and found it very relaxing but not thrilling. More something to chill than to actually play around but still interesting.

Modifié par kongenial, 15 mars 2011 - 12:19 .


#75
Cody2Go

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It blows my mind the number of people who've been absolutely trashing this game. Can you imagine if it was actually not incredible. I loved DAO, it was great, they've changed it, they said they were going to. The only reason people are complaining is because DA2 is DAO with better graphics. Bioware, you've done a good thing here. Well done.