203 réponses à ce sujet

[aox_general]

ENAKTSB wrote...

17thknight wrote...

Warlokki wrote...

Old School RPGs time is over... at least for now. Maybe they'll be fashionable laterm but ATM, they're not. Get over it.

And yet DA:O was one of their best-selling games of all time and was specifically built around the concept of being an old-school RPG.

Um... but... If we talk about how big sales make a great game... then this will be just as good I guess. I think that many DAO players pre-ordered DA2 and the rest got it as soon as it was released just because... hey... it's Dragon Age. So if we look at "units sold" in a year or two - it should be roughly the same. What will you say then? "DA2 was one of the best-selling RPGs because it abandoned the archaic style of play and instead went for the more modern approach"?

no, he will say "DA2 was one of the best-selling RPGs because it cashed in on existing DAO fanbase."

[Caralampio]

I think the main problem for us haters is that we loved DAO. It's my favorite game 4-ever! I stopped playing it (for a while) after my son pointed out that I was just zipping through conversations in the game using Esc and keyboard numbers, *while speaking with my wife*. I was hardly paying attention to the game conversations, because I know them all by heart! Esc- conversation choice 4. - Esc- conversation choice 1. Esc- conversation choice 2... And, I think I just can't go through Redcliffe again. For a while.

So, we haters, call us old timers, wanted more DAO. Can't have enough DAO. I need DAO DAO DAO. I don't want more Mass Effect, or more mass-attacking zombie-killer games, or a new anime style game. I want a whole new epic world, but that still plays just like the DAO I love. That is what one should expect of a game called DA2 right? Some new ideas sure but basically the same thing.

However, DA2 although it feels like it is loosely based on DAO, it also feels intrinsically changed, in a manner quite well explained by the OP, although there are additional greivances not mentioned by him.

So in an ideal world, we haters should have had our "DAO revisited" game, and those who like anime, killing zombie hordes, etc. would have another game designed for them that could even be loosely based on DAO "Dreams of Ferelden" or something like that. But of course that is asking too much isn't it.

Unfortunately for us "old timers", I don't think we'll ever see a DA3 (or 4, or 5) game that is a return to DAO roots. Game designers hate to backtrack even when many people point out that their "big idea" wasn't cool.

Redcliffe, here I come!!!

[cljqnsnyc]

cephasjames wrote...

cljqnsnyc wrote...

Art can never be created using flow charts and statistics. You can poll as many focus groups as you want. They don't always tell the whole story. If that is the new way of making games at Bioware then people who have been buying their games long before there was a "Mass Effect 2," will exercise their right to pass...and they'll see if the grand experiment to cultivate a new fanbase really worked. Your opinion of "the Witcher" is just that, your opinion.  I disagree. As with other mediums, games can take stories previously written and transform them into high quality games, which in my opinion is what "the Witcher" was.


cephasjames wrote......

Art can never be created using flow charts and statistics... unless the artist wants to sell to a bigger audience.  If someone wants to be "true to themselves" and make the art they want to make regardless of how much they sell, that's great. But if someone wants to make art that they like and have it sell well then they need to understand what their potential audience wants (common business sense). And that is also great. Both choices will alienate people from buying that art. BioWare (or any artist) has to chose which alienation they think fits them best. Sometimes they chose "poorly" (a subjective word) or go too far (again, subjective) in one direction. It happens. But artists, at least the ones that actually want to sell their art, usual learn from what happens and then adapt.

Art and commerce can sometimes form a perfct union. Again, it's all about the execution. Flow charts, focus groups, and statistics don't always equal success. You have to actually connect with people if you want them to support you.  That's a fact. Will some poeple buy because they are told what they should like? Sure. I'm just not one of those people.

Modifié par cljqnsnyc, 15 mars 2011 - 02:02 .

[cephasjames]

cljqnsnyc wrote...

Then they should have called it something different, not DA2. Yes DAO had flaws but it stands head and shoulders of above this "sequel." I cared! That's the problem. The story was engaging as were the characters. There are some positives about DA2, but the name is killing it! Bringing people into the fold as you put it is the goal of any smart business. The problem is excecution.  You might go see a sequel to a film you never saw the original too, but you can bet your money that the majority of the people in that theater saw the first film. That's just an undeniable fact!

I can see your point about the name, though I don't agree.
As for the bold, was the sequel only intended for people who saw the first movie? Or was it also intended to bring in more people to the franchise? Any sequel (and DA2 is a sequel because the common theme is the Dragon Age, not the warden. YMMV, obviously) is intended to appeal to those that saw the first and those that did not, especially if the first one didn't deliver in a way the creators had hoped.

[brownxiii]

cljqnsnyc wrote...

It's really funny how some people keep saying the time of old school rpgs is over...deal with it! Really? Why then create a DA2? Wasn't it the success of DAO...an old school rpg, that forced EA to rush Bioware into making a sequel? Well, it really isn't a sequel. I don't think Bethesda or CD Project Red would agree that it's a dying format, not in the least!

The gaming industry is SUPPOSED to have variety! There is a need...and an audience for old school rpgs. Bioware never had any trouble selling them in the past. If I'm not mistaken, "Fallout: New Vegas" sold rather well and there's this other little "niche" rpg coming later this year called "Skyrim," which I'm sure Bethesda won't have any trouble selling either. Not to mention "The Wither 2," which is receiving a very high amount of buzz.

Should every game be transformed into shooters and action games or be "effected?"  No. Books still sell and people still go to the movies. There is choice, variety. Bioware cultivated an audience that enjoys quality storytelling mixed with combat, exploration, and customization. If you lower the quality of the product that gave you your name and fans, you must expect there to be complaints. Gutting and streamlining isn't going to play to the majority of the fans that have been buying your games for years. Always keep your core audience satisfied. After all, they're the ones that made you. Smart business! Reaching higher is also smart, if not risky. But there are degrees to risktaking. How much is too much? Bioware will have to decide that for themselves.

I have no criticism towards the people that really love DA2. That's excellent! But those very same people are screaming bloody murder and making excuses because there are a large number of people who disagree with them. People have the right to disagree and demand higher standards if they are expected to reach into their pockets and purses to spend money. You cannot expect people who love rpgs to settle for a "streamlined" version of an rpg...which really isn't an rpg at all. Everyone doesn't have the same tastes. If you really wanted to target the COD/Halo/GOW crowd, why not just make an fps or an action game? Trying to do that with DA2 was bound to cause the reaction we're seeing now.

This all could have been avoided if DA2 was called anything other than DA2. How can you sell a sequel that isn't a sequel to the fans who loved the original? By calling it what it is: a story set in the DA universe that involves some elements of what we learned about Thedas from Origins. That way the game would be allowed to stand on it's own merits for better or worse. People wouldn't have gone in expecting a sequel. But hey, maybe this "beefier" dlc that has been talked about will fill in the blanks and cover up the holes. A toolset would also please the pc crowd.  Well see...

Ok, wait a second, are you saying that Skyrim and Fallout are old school RPG's? They are more FPS than they are RPG. Just because you level up, and receive "quests" does not make them RPG's. Call of Duty has a quest, too. You also kinda level up in hardcore FPS games by getting better guns etc.

How is Witcher considered an RPG, but not DA2, I have no idea. You cannot choose class, gender, race; you don't have companions to travel everywhere; all you do is time your clicks at certain instances. Bioware did not promise an "old school RPG" anyways.. They said "we'll try something new" and "bring something new to gaming", and that is what they did, and personally I love it.

[cljqnsnyc]

 You can play them that way...if you so choose. But that's your option. I never play using that perspective. But I'm not going to argue wether or not those games are fps or rpg. That would be a pointless arguement. Sequels are only made because people bought the first game. Of course they want to attract a larger audience, but it's the fans who gave Bioware the right to even make a sequel. And NO......DA2 is NOT a sequel! I don't recall Hawke in my Warden story. Do you? Taking place in the same universe doesn't make it a sequel. Sequel: A literary, dramatic, or cinematic work whose narrative continues that of a preexisting work. How much of DA2 existed in DAO? Less than 10%. Throwing a few bones like Alistair and Flemeth doesn't equate to a sequel. At least not to me.

Modifié par cljqnsnyc, 15 mars 2011 - 02:18 .

[brownxiii]

Caralampio wrote...

I think the main problem for us haters is that we loved DAO. It's my favorite game 4-ever! I stopped playing it (for a while) after my son pointed out that I was just zipping through conversations in the game using Esc and keyboard numbers, *while speaking with my wife*. I was hardly paying attention to the game conversations, because I know them all by heart! Esc- conversation choice 4. - Esc- conversation choice 1. Esc- conversation choice 2... And, I think I just can't go through Redcliffe again. For a while.

So, we haters, call us old timers, wanted more DAO. Can't have enough DAO. I need DAO DAO DAO. I don't want more Mass Effect, or more mass-attacking zombie-killer games, or a new anime style game. I want a whole new epic world, but that still plays just like the DAO I love. That is what one should expect of a game called DA2 right? Some new ideas sure but basically the same thing.

However, DA2 although it feels like it is loosely based on DAO, it also feels intrinsically changed, in a manner quite well explained by the OP, although there are additional greivances not mentioned by him.

So in an ideal world, we haters should have had our "DAO revisited" game, and those who like anime, killing zombie hordes, etc. would have another game designed for them that could even be loosely based on DAO "Dreams of Ferelden" or something like that. But of course that is asking too much isn't it.

Unfortunately for us "old timers", I don't think we'll ever see a DA3 (or 4, or 5) game that is a return to DAO roots. Game designers hate to backtrack even when many people point out that their "big idea" wasn't cool.

Redcliffe, here I come!!!

I think killing zombie hordes is very similar to killina horde of darkspawn. "ooh there is a big dragon coming with millions of zombies, someone should save us! Hey there, you, player, why don't you save us?" This "epic-ness" is, in my opinion, getting old. We love to think we are superman, some kind of hero, but we are just people trying to get by in our lives. Everything we do sends ripples throughout the universe and maybe we affect some people's lives more than we imagined. But that is all about it. And this game perfectly grasps the reality.

[cephasjames]

cljqnsnyc wrote...

cephasjames wrote...

cljqnsnyc wrote...

Art can never be created using flow charts and statistics. You can poll as many focus groups as you want. They don't always tell the whole story. If that is the new way of making games at Bioware then people who have been buying their games long before there was a "Mass Effect 2," will exercise their right to pass...and they'll see if the grand experiment to cultivate a new fanbase really worked. Your opinion of "the Witcher" is just that, your opinion.  I disagree. As with other mediums, games can take stories previously written and transform them into high quality games, which in my opinion is what "the Witcher" was.

Art can never be created using flow charts and statistics... unless the artist wants to sell to a bigger audience.  If someone wants to be "true to themselves" and make the art they want to make regardless of how much they sell, that's great. But if someone wants to make art that they like and have it sell well then they need to understand what their potential audience wants (common business sense). And that is also great. Both choices will alienate people from buying that art. BioWare (or any artist) has to chose which alienation they think fits them best. Sometimes they chose "poorly" (a subjective word) or go too far (again, subjective) in one direction. It happens. But artists, at least the ones that actually want to sell their art, usual learn from what happens and then adapt.

Art and commerce can sometimes form a perfct union. Again, it's all about the execution. Flow charts, focus groups, and statistics don't always equal success. You have to actually connect with people if you want them to support you.  That's a fact. Will some poeple buy because they are told what they should like? Sure. I'm just not one of those people.

I agree that flow charts, focus groups, and statistics don't always equal success. That wasn't my point. But to connect with people, as you say, you need to know what will connect with them. And as I said, an artists will alienate people when they chose which connects to go with (I think the current state of these forums show that  ). Like any artist who tries to connect to the most people, BioWare made a choice. Only time will tell how that choice plays out.

From what I understand the classic, old school rpg crowd is not a big enough crowd to support the art BioWare is making (regardless of how old school the games are) so they need to find a way to connect to more people so they can continue to make any form of rpg.

I'm a big fan of Out of the Park Baseball, a text-based baseball simulation game produced by a very small independent company. They make the same choices. They have to balance between the "hardcore" gamer and a new audience that might not be into the hardcore stuff as much as some. This year they chose to reach out more to new customers rather than old because 1) their hardcore customer base is not soley big enough to support them and 2) they want new customers to buy their game so they can continue making more games. This has alienated some of the hardcore crowd. But when art and business are intertwined those kind of choices need to be made. The developer will discover, through "flow charts, focus groups, and statistics", after the game is released whether this was a good choice or not. As will BioWare. And smart artists/business will learn and grow from that. I believe both gaming companies are smart. And both will adjust their next games based off of what the flow charts, focus groups, and statistics show.

[Aesieru]

Gosh I hate the Witcher, stop talking about it.

[cljqnsnyc]

Well if those flow charts, focus groups, and statistics bare fruit, fantastic! I'm in! If not. I'll take my business elsewhere.

Modifié par cljqnsnyc, 15 mars 2011 - 02:22 .

[xenn]

To many extreme changes from what made the original so loved. A refinement is good, a complete change is not. It's just not the same game. It was a mistake calling it Dragon Age 2.

Modifié par xenn, 15 mars 2011 - 02:21 .

[cephasjames]

cljqnsnyc wrote...

Sequels are only made because people bought the first game. Of course they want to attract a larger audience, but it's the fans who gave Bioware the right to even make a sequel.

Yes, sequels are only made because people bought the first game. And, because of that success, that's why they make a sequel that tries to appeal to a greater audience. No sequel, ever, has been create just for the people who bought the first.

[Cobrawar]

xenn wrote...

To many extreme changes from what made the original so loved. A refinement is good, a complete change is not. It's just not the same game. It was a mistake calling it Dragon Age 2.

I agree they should of never said the game was dragon age 2 that was their first mistake. They should of called it Dragon Tales: hawke's kirkwall adventure or something of that nature.

[ENAKTSB]

The ultimate problem with this whole s...t storm about DA2 is what I call "The Vocal Minority". It's that bunch of people who bother to go the forums and smear crap all over whatever comes out and is different from what they expected. I would say it's something like 1-2% of the whole community... however - they'll go to great lengths... post tons of... posts. Go on and on and on about how crappy the game is... they'll even create fake accounts without any games on them and answer their own posts just to make it look like there's more of them...

And I think the most crucial thing about this whole phenomenon is... that no care must be given to such people by the developer. We can bicker here on the forums for days on... but Bioware - please don't pay any attention... Want a survey about "what to change/what was good/what sucked"? Send a survey to 10000 registered users asking for feedback... DO NOT READ THESE FORUMS, PLEASE!

[cephasjames]

cljqnsnyc wrote...

Well if those flow charts, focus groups, and statistics bare fruit, fantastic! I'm in! If not. I'll take my business elsewhere.

Yep, you are proof of choices artists need to make. And an artist's hope is that for every person like you that they lose a connection with they gain at least one more. That's risky, but its the way the game is played.

[Cobrawar]

ENAKTSB wrote...

The ultimate problem with this whole s...t storm about DA2 is what I call "The Vocal Minority". It's that bunch of people who bother to go the forums and smear crap all over whatever comes out and is different from what they expected. I would say it's something like 1-2% of the whole community... however - they'll go to great lengths... post tons of... posts. Go on and on and on about how crappy the game is... they'll even create fake accounts without any games on them and answer their own posts just to make it look like there's more of them...

And I think the most crucial thing about this whole phenomenon is... that no care must be given to such people by the developer. We can bicker here on the forums for days on... but Bioware - please don't pay any attention... Want a survey about "what to change/what was good/what sucked"? Send a survey to 10000 registered users asking for feedback... DO NOT READ THESE FORUMS, PLEASE!

 total myth. go look at metacritic and see how many people bought the actual game that are disappointed.  The minority is in the people who actually like the game and Da3 will suffer because of Da2.

Modifié par Cobrawar, 15 mars 2011 - 02:32 .

[azarhal]

xenn wrote...

To many extreme changes from what made the original so loved. A refinement is good, a complete change is not. It's just not the same game. It was a mistake calling it Dragon Age 2.

It's perfectly fine to call the game Dragon Age 2, when it's the second game in the Dragon Age era of Thedas. They probably should have given a subtitle though.

[cljqnsnyc]

I'm not "proof" of anything other than the fact that I have a different view of things than you. Period!  Why must people always revert to attack mode when they cannot convince you to see things their way? I am secure enough in my own beliefs to allow you to have yours. Furthermore, I have not said anything about YOU personally...but since you can't change my opionion......I am reduced to "proof" of why companies make the choices they do. Whatever you say....

Modifié par cljqnsnyc, 15 mars 2011 - 02:43 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

brownxiii wrote...
I think killing zombie hordes is very similar to killina horde of darkspawn. "ooh there is a big dragon coming with millions of zombies, someone should save us! Hey there, you, player, why don't you save us?" This "epic-ness" is, in my opinion, getting old. We love to think we are superman, some kind of hero, but we are just people trying to get by in our lives. Everything we do sends ripples throughout the universe and maybe we affect some people's lives more than we imagined. But that is all about it. And this game perfectly grasps the reality.

Given that Hawke comes off as way more of a over-the-top superhero than the Warden, this is a funny statement.

I mena, you kill opponents by the hunderds..abominations, darkspawn, demons..enemies exploding in giblets...you are involved in starting a TheDAs spannign war.

How is saving Ferleden grader than that?

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 15 mars 2011 - 02:33 .

[cephasjames]

ENAKTSB wrote...

The ultimate problem with this whole s...t storm about DA2 is what I call "The Vocal Minority". It's that bunch of people who bother to go the forums and smear crap all over whatever comes out and is different from what they expected. I would say it's something like 1-2% of the whole community... however - they'll go to great lengths... post tons of... posts. Go on and on and on about how crappy the game is... they'll even create fake accounts without any games on them and answer their own posts just to make it look like there's more of them...

And I think the most crucial thing about this whole phenomenon is... that no care must be given to such people by the developer. We can bicker here on the forums for days on... but Bioware - please don't pay any attention... Want a survey about "what to change/what was good/what sucked"? Send a survey to 10000 registered users asking for feedback... DO NOT READ THESE FORUMS, PLEASE!

While I might disagree with the percentage of those that don't like the game I would agree that many who do like the game don't post much. I have wanted to post positive things about the game but I haven't because 1) I knew my thread would disappear really fast because of the large amount of negative threads, 2) I knew my positive thread would be filled full of negative nancys (which has happened a lot) and 3) because I'd rather be playing a game I enjoy .

People having negative feelings about the game are not bad. Negative threads are not bad (though the amount of them is a bit silly, imo ). I think BioWare will be able to sift through them and find legitimate complaints... and then address them in some way (whether now or down the road). They understand that their games are not perfect and they probably expect negative repsonses. And i bet they're also smart people, just like the people on these boards, and they will do what they believe to be best.

[Nick Fox]

ENAKTSB wrote...

The ultimate problem with this whole s...t storm about DA2 is what I call "The Vocal Minority". It's that bunch of people who bother to go the forums and smear crap all over whatever comes out and is different from what they expected. I would say it's something like 1-2% of the whole community... however - they'll go to great lengths... post tons of... posts. Go on and on and on about how crappy the game is... they'll even create fake accounts without any games on them and answer their own posts just to make it look like there's more of them...

And I think the most crucial thing about this whole phenomenon is... that no care must be given to such people by the developer. We can bicker here on the forums for days on... but Bioware - please don't pay any attention... Want a survey about "what to change/what was good/what sucked"? Send a survey to 10000 registered users asking for feedback... DO NOT READ THESE FORUMS, PLEASE!

Afraid BW actully would make an old school rpg that doesnt suit you ? They used to be known to make old school rpgs you know (wich obviously is holding up sales for this ..."hybrid").  Its all fine for you to voice your opinin but nobody else ? Hypocrith, besides DA O was an old school rpg and many want that back, they have the right to say so whatever you like that fact or not!

Modifié par Nick Fox, 15 mars 2011 - 02:43 .

[cephasjames]

cljqnsnyc wrote...

I'm not "proof" of anything other than the fact that I have a different view of things than you. Period!  Why must people always revert to attack mode when they cannot convince you to see things their way? I have not said anything about YOU personally...but you can't change my opionion so I am reduced to "proof" of why copmpanies make the choices they do. Whatever you say....

How did I attack you? All I said was that you are proof of the point you made: artists need to connect to people in order for people to want to buy their art. You, obviously, don't feel a connection to DA2. Thus your frustration.

[cljqnsnyc]

Keep it coming buddy..... If you want the final say, take it, it's yours. Enjoy!

Modifié par cljqnsnyc, 15 mars 2011 - 02:46 .

[cephasjames]

Hmmm. All I wanted to know was how I attacked you. But since you won't answer I will let it go too.

[ENAKTSB]

Cobrawar wrote...

 total myth. go look at metacritic and see how many people bought the actual game that are disappointed.  The minority is in the people who actually like the game and Da3 will suffer because of Da2.

Do you know what the reviews on that site are? They are a result of 2 forums creating a sort of a boycot of a game. People went there, voted 1/10... There you go. Right now - that is less than 1000 people. Let's say 1.000.000 people bought DA2... that's 0.1% from that million... I assumed 1% which seemed to have been generous. This is "The Vocal Minority" - and they went through the trouble of posting in metacritic. 

A statistical score (that's what the metacritic's meta-score is supposed to be BTW) is correct, as long as you DO NOT INFLUENCE THE STATISTIC. When you tell people - hey, if you hate the game - go there, post a 1/10 review... - That's when you invalidate the whole "User Score".