203 réponses à ce sujet

[royceclemens]

cephasjames wrote...

cljqnsnyc wrote...

Sequels are only made because people bought the first game. Of course they want to attract a larger audience, but it's the fans who gave Bioware the right to even make a sequel.

Yes, sequels are only made because people bought the first game. And, because of that success, that's why they make a sequel that tries to appeal to a greater audience. No sequel, ever, has been create just for the people who bought the first.

Indeed.  Feature that not everyone DAO was aimed at liked it.  If they catered to the die-hard fanbase, they'd have sold a copy of DAII to everyone within that fanbase except for those who didn't like it and thus, fewer copies sold.  Keep pandering to the base and fewer and fewer copies move until BioWare either bankrupts itself or EA sells it Activision.  And no one wants that!

I read elsewhere that this is the same kind of uproar that greeted Bob Dyan when he went electric.  Instead of folkies, it's 4chan and RPGCodex and instead of The Voice of a Generation, it's a damned game developer.

I think we can factor in what I like to call White Flight Gaming, named after the real estate phenomenon where when a black family moves into a white neighborhood, white families start moving out.  The same rules apply here (and no, I'm not calling anyone racist, so let's nip that in the bud right now)...

You have an RPG that sells well and it's an RPG fan's wet dream: Customization and micromanaging out the yin-yang. Sequel rolls around where, as all sequels will, changes are made to appeal to a broader audience maybe, in hopes, of using the sequel as a gateway drug for someone who's never played an RPG before.  But doing that means trying to put up a bigger tent and inviting in people who aren't in the pathetically small RPG gaming pool.

Well, we can't have that, now can we?  Those who view RPG gaming as a class status (as I've noticed most of the folks on this board do) will cry "bloody murder!" "Consolization!"  "Streamlined!"  "Dumbed down!"  If anyone who's ever picked up a controller, played a Halo or CoD game and said they liked it, while also saying they liked an RPG, then said RPG must be terrible.  The question of whether or not they enjoy a game is moot.  It's that the wrong kind of gamer can't enjoy it, and that's what makes something a good RPG, apparently.

Cool kids move in?  Nerds move out.  It's that simple.

[ENAKTSB]

Nick Fox wrote...
Afraid BW actully would make an old school rpg that doesnt suit you ? They used to be known to make old school rpgs you know.

Yeah... I know... I played BG from BlackIsle back then, BG2 and other games like that when they came out. They were awesome back then. But it's 11 (I think) years later now... Things change... And it's good that they do. I tried replaying BG2 recently... I'm sorry - can't be done... at least not by me. The newer way of playing is just so much better and more captivating then this older stuff.

Nick Fox wrote...
 Its all fine for you to voice your opinin but nobody else ?

It's all fine to voice opinions, but it's not fine when you try to create an image of a majority holding an opinion, when in fact it is a minor amount of people sharing it - but being vocal about it. And that was done when you guys went to a meta-rating site and skewed the result by creating a ton of 1/10 posts. I do not like when people do this and I believe Bioware should in fact send a ton of feedback requests to owners of the game, to see how many actually hated it. Forums are not representative at this point. 

[Bostur]

Hate is a strong word to use for a computer game. I doubt anyone hate DA2.

I don't recognize the reasons you listed for disliking DA2, except for the dialogues which holds some truth. At the very minimum I'd like to know the message im conveying through dialogues, the tone is important as well but so is the message. In DA2 I only know what the tone is, and have very little idea of the message.


I don't mind having a set race, class, description or even looks. Sometimes limitations can add to the experience by forcing some choices I wouldn't have explored otherwise, that can be interesting. Limitations for the player also allows the devlopers more freedom to create full characters that are easier to relate to.

I like personal stories, they don't always have to be about saving the world. As a matter of fact one of my favorite computer game series is GTA who uses the personal story to great effect.
The reason I don't like the story in DA2 is all about how it is delivered and nothing to do with the actual setting.


Tactical combat is slow, action combat is fast. DA2 is neither, its too fast for tactics, and too slow and boring for qualifiing as an action game. Trying to do both at the same time is almost impossible, although I was quite surprised that DA:O was able to find a medium that worked to some extent. Still I  think that this was the weakest aspect of DA:O, but I was able to overlook it due to many other qualities.


The reason I dislike DA2 is all about implementation. Most of the concepts could work if done well. Unfortunately they were not done well.

[TileToad]

Warlokki wrote...

Old School RPGs time is over... at least for now. Maybe they'll be fashionable laterm but ATM, they're not. Get over it.

I always wonder what people understand under "old school" RPGs..
If it means crappy graphics and stagnant, archaic game mechanics then, obviously, not many people will be interested.
However, what's wrong with keeping all the good parts of the core elements and improve on other aspects? I used to play and have a great time with these so called old school RPGs, but, nowadays, having all the realistic physics and amazing visuals, it would be a shame if games didn't make use of that.

Though, obviously, if you'd change too much about the "old school" RPGs mechanics, you might run the risk that it becomes something different than a RPG. There are certain parts you can't omit to remain true to a genre, but other than that, developers can be as innovative and flexible as can possibly be.

So unless you want a different genre entirely, what's wrong with keeping true to old school RPGs and innovate/modernize where possible?

[AnnaBananaBamBamBoo]

DA2 uses the computer throughput much more efficiently than any other Bioware game, hence the gigacycles on your processor will spend more valuable time processing in game play instead of in-menu stupification. The combat is is much more exciting and realistic; exploring is a wonder.

[Axis Swordarm]

brownxiii wrote...

I love the fact that story is not epic anymore. I do not understand the foolish children fantasy of everyone to save the world from a menace. Enough games have been made around that. Bioware wanted to be creative, bring about something new, and I think it is great. Rather than saving the world. we are trying to get on with out lives. That is how the world is today. Nobody is trying to save the world from an evil emperor. People are trying to earn more $$ and live more happily (hopefully). This is more of an adult fantasy game.
Dragon Age: Origins, in my opinion, was so boring. It was extremely linear. You could decide who the king could be, who to save, but you had to do those things one way or another.

**DAO Spoilers here**
If, for example, you were not a mage, and you killed all the mages in the tower, including Wynne, you would be left with only Morrigan for the rest of the story. Now, that choice of not saving the mages was a choice between being utterly stupid and being reasonable. So, really, it was not much of a choice.
**DAO Spoiler ended**

So I think the fact that DA2 giving us reasonable choices makes the game much better than DAO in my opinion.

You have no choices in Dragon Age 2.  A friend told me no spoilers when I told him I'd given up at the end of Act 2 and I replied there are no spoilers to give.

This is not an adult fantasy game and the belief that it is harms actual mature games.  The very sparse plot for Dragon Age 2 is an atrocious retelling of The Witcher minus the most important choice, walking away and telling everyone to shove it up their arse.  

[brownxiii]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

brownxiii wrote...
I think killing zombie hordes is very similar to killina horde of darkspawn. "ooh there is a big dragon coming with millions of zombies, someone should save us! Hey there, you, player, why don't you save us?" This "epic-ness" is, in my opinion, getting old. We love to think we are superman, some kind of hero, but we are just people trying to get by in our lives. Everything we do sends ripples throughout the universe and maybe we affect some people's lives more than we imagined. But that is all about it. And this game perfectly grasps the reality.

Given that Hawke comes off as way more of a over-the-top superhero than the Warden, this is a funny statement.

I mena, you kill opponents by the hunderds..abominations, darkspawn, demons..enemies exploding in giblets...you are involved in starting a TheDAs spannign war.

How is saving Ferleden grader than that?

You never intended to change Kirkwall or start a mage/templar war or anything. It just happened that you were caught right in the middle of the conflict. As opposed to "you are one of the two people that can save a whole country with a queen and many bannorns. the other warden is not much capable, so actually, it is you who must save the world". So you (as the player) are pumped too much of an ego throughout the game, "ooh, our savior, hero of Fereldan". Whereas becoming the Champion of Kirkwall had you start out from a refugee, to a merceneary/smuggler, to a treasure hunter, to a noble ... to the champion. You don't suddenly become someone everyone relies on. as in DAO.

[Killa2k]

Cobrawar wrote...

xenn wrote...

To many extreme changes from what made the original so loved. A refinement is good, a complete change is not. It's just not the same game. It was a mistake calling it Dragon Age 2.

I agree they should of never said the game was dragon age 2 that was their first mistake. They should of called it Dragon Tales: hawke's kirkwall adventure or something of that nature.

this

[Nick Fox]

ENAKTSB wrote...

Nick Fox wrote...
Afraid BW actully would make an old school rpg that doesnt suit you ? They used to be known to make old school rpgs you know.

Yeah... I know... I played BG from BlackIsle back then, BG2 and other games like that when they came out. They were awesome back then. But it's 11 (I think) years later now... Things change... And it's good that they do. I tried replaying BG2 recently... I'm sorry - can't be done... at least not by me. The newer way of playing is just so much better and more captivating then this older stuff.

Nick Fox wrote...
 Its all fine for you to voice your opinin but nobody else ?

It's all fine to voice opinions, but it's not fine when you try to create an image of a majority holding an opinion, when in fact it is a minor amount of people sharing it - but being vocal about it. And that was done when you guys went to a meta-rating site and skewed the result by creating a ton of 1/10 posts. I do not like when people do this and I believe Bioware should in fact send a ton of feedback requests to owners of the game, to see how many actually hated it. Forums are not representative at this point. 

Minority or not, clearly there are many so their opinin counts as much as yours. If you think the majority of the DA:O lovers, loves this game then I say you are in the minority too, see it goes two ways.
Nobody knows so dont act like you are more knowledgble than say for instance me.

Clearly if a game is extremly liked than there will still be some  negative voices heard on forums etc (that is the day and era we live in). But personally I must say this seems to be a rather big minorty about this game. It will all die out in time o, so dont worry, kind of what happend in ME 2 too. This is big enough to be quite noticable though imo (from BW point of view).

Dont hate DA2 myself, just not fond of it, not bad but again far from what I wanted/expected and not even in the same gengre anymore (my opinion). Would've been better if it was a spin off and not a direct sequal (then of course i wouldnt have bought it, but you get the point).

[CKinsman]

You are confusing modern with bad.

[brownxiii]

Axis Swordarm wrote...

brownxiii wrote...

I love the fact that story is not epic anymore. I do not understand the foolish children fantasy of everyone to save the world from a menace. Enough games have been made around that. Bioware wanted to be creative, bring about something new, and I think it is great. Rather than saving the world. we are trying to get on with out lives. That is how the world is today. Nobody is trying to save the world from an evil emperor. People are trying to earn more $$ and live more happily (hopefully). This is more of an adult fantasy game.
Dragon Age: Origins, in my opinion, was so boring. It was extremely linear. You could decide who the king could be, who to save, but you had to do those things one way or another.

**DAO Spoilers here**
If, for example, you were not a mage, and you killed all the mages in the tower, including Wynne, you would be left with only Morrigan for the rest of the story. Now, that choice of not saving the mages was a choice between being utterly stupid and being reasonable. So, really, it was not much of a choice.
**DAO Spoiler ended**

So I think the fact that DA2 giving us reasonable choices makes the game much better than DAO in my opinion.

You have no choices in Dragon Age 2.  A friend told me no spoilers when I told him I'd given up at the end of Act 2 and I replied there are no spoilers to give.

This is not an adult fantasy game and the belief that it is harms actual mature games.  The very sparse plot for Dragon Age 2 is an atrocious retelling of The Witcher minus the most important choice, walking away and telling everyone to shove it up their arse.  

There are no choices in DA2? Are you sure we are talking about the same game?
Every small quest you do almost adds up at the end, some come back to bite you in the arse later in the game. Even Hawke mentions it with the exact words, too.

Let me rephrase if you didn't like the "adult fantasy", let me say "realistic fanstasy", and create an oxymoron maybe. But basically, for people with realistic expectations, but still want to pretend they are living a different life. The life is just not so epic as it usually is in normal fantasy games, which makes it more realistic.

Modifié par brownxiii, 15 mars 2011 - 03:58 .

[TheTWF]

Exactly the reason.

...why people decided to hate DA2 from the moment it was announced, regardless. Analysis? Stand on it's own merits? Forget that, it's trash because it doesn't directly follow my perfect image of what a game should be, regardless of whether or not I'm a bitter hateful **** who probably pirates everything.

Bioware are certainly idiots... for pandering to that kind in the first place. And it got them nowhere since the beginning since DA:O got a lot of the same nitpicky jabs when it came out (remember Manson?). I've heard more praise for the game after DA2's announcement then the whole year after Origin's release.

[Nick Fox]

TheTWF wrote...

Exactly the reason.

...why people decided to hate DA2 from the moment it was announced, regardless. Analysis? Stand on it's own merits? Forget that, it's trash because it doesn't directly follow my perfect image of what a game should be, regardless of whether or not I'm a bitter hateful **** who probably pirates everything.

Bioware are certainly idiots... for pandering to that kind in the first place. And it got them nowhere since the beginning since DA:O got a lot of the same nitpicky jabs when it came out (remember Manson?). I've heard more praise for the game after DA2's announcement then the whole year after Origin's release.

Depends on our own views, selctive hearing/seeing and nothing more. People do that all the time!

[Axis Swordarm]

brownxiii wrote...
There are no choices in DA2? Are you sure we are talking about the same game?
Every small quest you do almost adds up at the end, some come back to bite you in the arse later in the game. Even Hawke mentions it with the exact words, too.

Let me rephrase if you didn't like the "adult fantasy", let me say "realistic fanstasy", and create an oxymoron maybe. But basically, for people with realistic expectations, but still want to pretend they are living a different life. The life is just not so epic as it usually is in normal fantasy games, which makes it more realistic.

Realistic fantasy is not slaughtering thousands of men and women in empty streets, followed up by a slice of slaughtering Blood Mages by the score along with demons and whatever else is said by the story to be dangerous.  The choices did not bite you in the arse, you are finding depth where none exists, I had so few choices throughout the game that it really comes down to being a railroad simulator.

There were so many poorly realised enemies that you could not deal with despite knowing them early on.  There was absolutely zero choice given in the ending.

I love the notion put forward and it fails to do this completely except for those who are unable to understand how such a narrative should work.  It's a lack of imagination and acceptance of poor quality on your part.  You are who the writers and designers fixed this for, you're the audience who will accept this no matter what.

It's a badly written and badly designed mess and the longer I read things here the more I see that there is no rebuttal to peoples concerns, it does come down to those who accept the mediocre and those who expect something more.  It has nothing to do with hardcore or casual, or even old and new, it's just people who dredged enjoyment from the game and those who could not put aside the massive flaws and failures in storytelling, dialogue, world, atmosphere and gameplay.

[brownxiii]

TheTWF wrote...
I've heard more praise for the game after DA2's announcement then the whole year after Origin's release.

That is so true. I was very excited about DAO at first, since I had waited 5 years after the first announcement about working on a game called Dragon Age. After I played it once, it just seemed like "ohh, the same theme, same subject, again an ancient evil, really?".. I am surprised, after all this time people are going back to it and saying it was awesome. It was a good start, it only needed a different story rather than "save everyone". It set a good base for future stories. And DA2 builds up on that.

[Jitter]

Warlokki wrote...

Old School RPGs time is over... at least for now. Maybe they'll be fashionable laterm but ATM, they're not. Get over it.

DA2 Sales from Amazon 

DA2 for the PC 84th and falling like a stone. 
DA2 for playstation 55th and falling like a stone.
DA2 Xbox 34th falling like a stone. 

Im thinking it will take 2 weeks for them to fall off the top 100. 

They may be fashionable sooner than you think . 

If there are only 2 RPG games released this year , DA2 would finish third. 
Wallets are speaking ... can you hear them ? 

[Eventide]

Uh, tell us something we don't know? That's not what pisses off most people, I'm pretty sure it's the reused maps and hack-and-slash feel, along with less interactions with characters.

[brownxiii]

Axis Swordarm wrote...

brownxiii wrote...
There are no choices in DA2? Are you sure we are talking about the same game?
Every small quest you do almost adds up at the end, some come back to bite you in the arse later in the game. Even Hawke mentions it with the exact words, too.

Let me rephrase if you didn't like the "adult fantasy", let me say "realistic fanstasy", and create an oxymoron maybe. But basically, for people with realistic expectations, but still want to pretend they are living a different life. The life is just not so epic as it usually is in normal fantasy games, which makes it more realistic.

Realistic fantasy is not slaughtering thousands of men and women in empty streets, followed up by a slice of slaughtering Blood Mages by the score along with demons and whatever else is said by the story to be dangerous.  The choices did not bite you in the arse, you are finding depth where none exists, I had so few choices throughout the game that it really comes down to being a railroad simulator.

There were so many poorly realised enemies that you could not deal with despite knowing them early on.  There was absolutely zero choice given in the ending.

I love the notion put forward and it fails to do this completely except for those who are unable to understand how such a narrative should work.  It's a lack of imagination and acceptance of poor quality on your part.  You are who the writers and designers fixed this for, you're the audience who will accept this no matter what.

It's a badly written and badly designed mess and the longer I read things here the more I see that there is no rebuttal to peoples concerns, it does come down to those who accept the mediocre and those who expect something more.  It has nothing to do with hardcore or casual, or even old and new, it's just people who dredged enjoyment from the game and those who could not put aside the massive flaws and failures in storytelling, dialogue, world, atmosphere and gameplay.

So it is okay, when you battle a horde of darkspawn at hard difficulty, without even once using any reinforcements in DAO? It is realistic enough for a game, dont expect a real life simulator.

Poorly written story?! It amazes me how often people forget about the masterpiece Planescape Torment, which was centered around a character in a very similar fashion. You were still exceptional, but it was all about you, not some grand scheme to save the city of Sigil from the Lady of the Pain.

As far as "there is no choice in ending", there is none in DAO either: you end the Blight, surprise!

I am not saying the game is perfect. I just don't understand the complaints about the story, and the way it is less of an RPG now. I do agree that overuse of the same environment really pissed me off. Keeping the tactical camera, could have easily made many people happy. But I definitely do not agree about complaints on the story,

[jennamarae]

It never fails to amuse me how often the "If you don't like everything I like then you must be part of the vocal minority" card gets played.

[Myounage]

Lol wut? I don't hate DA 2 because it's actioney and consolized. Those things detract severely from its enjoyability, but I hate it because it does those things really badly. Mass Effect 2 did them well and was a good game. This game did them poorly and is a bad game.

[keginkc]

TheTWF wrote...

Exactly the reason.

...why people decided to hate DA2 from the moment it was announced, regardless. Analysis? Stand on it's own merits? Forget that, it's trash because it doesn't directly follow my perfect image of what a game should be, regardless of whether or not I'm a bitter hateful **** who probably pirates everything.

Bioware are certainly idiots... for pandering to that kind in the first place. And it got them nowhere since the beginning since DA:O got a lot of the same nitpicky jabs when it came out (remember Manson?). I've heard more praise for the game after DA2's announcement then the whole year after Origin's release.

That sums it up nicely I think.

[Haristo]

He's right !

[Dramund]

Here is the most concise way to sum up the forum user's anger at every Bioware game:

Still not Baldur's Gate

It is time to move on, I think.

[Kopawapatezi]

Autolycus wrote...

If one more idiotic person compares DA2 to the greatest RPG of all time...I'm gonna blow a fuse.

As for you miss Jenna, you are the vocal minority if you don't agree with me hehe

To the OP, maybe people don't like it because it lost its RPG roots....and became a sub genre game....and that also, its very inferior to Origins (unless you played both on the console).

I have yet to see someone compare DA2 to Planescape: Torment. :^$