29 réponses à ce sujet

[Baelin Firestorm]

In another post, someone mentioned how a player in another game (*cough*Oblivion*cough*) could use an ability called Chameleon which at 100% made you completely invisible. Meaning, the NPCs couldn't attack you because they couldn't see you. Well, provisionally.. ..some NPCs still could approach you, but I always felt that was a fluke between programming and intent.

Regardless, is using 100% Chameleon (invisibility) cheating? I always had an issue using full invisibilty in Oblivion. Using it wasn't cheating, per se, since it was an active opportunity in the game. You didn't need to type in cheat codes or use a mod to attain the ability. Still, it seemed unbalanced.

If DA:O had something similar (i.e., the ability to move and attack from stealth that didn't afford your target the option to fight back), would you use it? If you did use it, would you consider it cheating?

[Chikkenstorm]

I'm pretty sure the stealth in DA isn't that stupid. Because stupid it is, being invincible with legal game-mechanics.

[Taleroth]

You have to define cheating, first. Some people take cheating as inherently immoral and their answer will simply reflect their moral stance on the issue. (I imagine most would simply say no) Others may have other qualifiers for what is and is not cheating, such that cheating is any exploit that causes behavior outside expectations. Theirs will reflect their opinion of expected play.

I think it is cheating, I fall into the latter. But it is not immoral in any sense. It is just a point where the numbers behave in either an unforseeable fashion or a fashion where the developers didn't care enough to make adjustments.


You can't really ask for morality or ethics for single player game actions.  Unless you're hoping to encounter an irrational variation on the purist position.

Modifié par Taleroth, 28 octobre 2009 - 07:22 .

[willtraverse]

100% Chameleon was something I yearned to achieve for a while, but when I finally did it just felt cheap. Took all the fun out of the game. It might be more accurate to call it exploitative rather than cheating, but I still wouldn't do it again.

[NetBeansAndJava]

From what I understand, stealth is a little more like stealth in WoW than invisibility in Oblivion. Stealth breaks when you attack, so you can't just hit people without them knowing. Also, I believe there are penalties to stealth checks during combat, so you actually need a talent to stealth during combat. Makes sense, since during combat everyone is already on edge.



Bottom line: I doubt stealth is broken like Oblivion's invisibility, though we have yet to see how much it can be abused.

[Baldurs Dragon]

Was an unbalanced but very useful feature for me

In DAO is different, a full invisible party seems unfair....maybe

[Sebiale]

I used it in Oblivion on a few play-throughs just for fun. But there were some play-throughs I never touched it.

[Flamin Jesus]

They're bunches of pixels without any human behind them, by definition nothing we do in the game can even be called unfair, even if things were different, things that are actually possible solutions to quests (Like murdering unarmed prisoners) would be far more unfair than using invisibility to dispose of dangerous monsters that try to kill and eat you and your family.



Also, 100% chamaeleon was cheap, but not cheating (You can't cheat by doing something explicitly allowed by the rules, even if those rules fall short of keeping the results of those things balanced).



That leaves avoiding it due to other reasons...

I normally wouldn't use a broken tactic to avoid sucking the fun out of the game. And I never understood why people use cheats (or worse, cheat in multiplayer games), what's the point and challenge of 'beating' a level of Hitman (For example) when you're impervious to bullets? However, I have no qualms using broken tactics to fight broken enemies or overcome broken situations in the game, and I can see myself using the cheats of DA:O once I've gotten all the fun of normal play out of it to test things out or just have some mindless fun or test mods I might create at some point in the future.

[mastermerol]

It is not fun to have 100% chameleon or invisibility, i just prefer to hide in the shadows and expect not to be seen.

[Nivraym]

I only did that when I was bored with the game, had a million mods installed (the game experience is so much better with good mods.. 'Pure' Oblivion is poor and not very challenging) etc. You just need to have decent soul gems and a place to enchant your items.

Technically it's not cheating. Just taking adventage of the game. Just like shooting fireballs into the wall to buff destruction skill.

[phoenixds24]

I would define cheating as doing something you'd not normally be able to do within the game mechanics, or maybe even something you're not supposed to be able to do. Something like 100% Chameleon (which I never bothered trying for, personally) is what I'd call an exploit; something that is perfectly legal under the game mechanics, but gives you a huge advantage. Cheating cheapens your in-game accomplishments. Utilizing exploits is just being clever in that you're taking advantage of something that's there for you. For example, in Jade Empire, you could use one style to paralyze most enemies you encountered, making fights ridiculously easy. I used it all the time. That's not bad, that's just taking every advantage you can. Fighting isn't about fairness. Especially when they outnumber you.

[soteria]

I thought 100% chamaelon was amusing at times. There you are, stabbing someone to death, and they're saying things like, "Must have been the wind." "Damn rats."

[Flamin Jesus]

soteria wrote...

I thought 100% chamaelon was amusing at times. There you are, stabbing someone to death, and they're saying things like, "Must have been the wind." "Damn rats."

"My, the wind is stabby again tod... OH GOD I'M DYING!"

[PsychoBlonde]

Can you even really "cheat" in a single-player game? Cheating implies someone who is cheated. It's your game, play it how you like.

[halogod1986]

I try to abstain from abusing any shortcomings in a game's programming that gives me a disproportionate advantage. I'm reminded of the Shield Rod / Alucard Shield combo of Symphony of the Night. Sure it's cool when you first discover it, but how quickly does the game lose its luster. Maybe I'm just driven by the challenge that a game presents as opposed to simply feeling compelled to complete it. Sometime it's better to travel than to arrive, you know?

[Baelin Firestorm]

halogod1986 wrote...

I try to abstain from abusing any shortcomings in a game's programming that gives me a disproportionate advantage. I'm reminded of the Shield Rod / Alucard Shield combo of Symphony of the Night. Sure it's cool when you first discover it, but how quickly does the game lose its luster. Maybe I'm just driven by the challenge that a game presents as opposed to simply feeling compelled to complete it. Sometime it's better to travel than to arrive, you know?

Excellent summarization. As I wrote in the OP, I recognized it as unbalanced. I used it for a while and realized the game lost it's flavor. I didn't consider it cheating, which is why I used the word "ethics" in the title. Fortunately, I didn't discover the "100% Chameleon" gimmick until my second or third play through. Even then, I stopped using it after a few confrontations.

[Drawn75]

Besthesda loves that, even in Fallout3 you can do the same with chinese stealth suit, that's just their thing, their method of making game playable for n00bs who treat it like action/fps rather than character development.

In other Bioware games, stealths are usually dropped after any agressive actions so I would not worry about it. Although t is true that even in BG II you can stealth through most creatures that have no true-seeing, lay down bunch of traps and instagib creatures upon aggro. Which hopefully won't happen again.

Some might call them exploits like FF6's vanish+doom, BG1's sphere of invulnerability to silence caster mobs... but for Besthesda it's more intentional than anything since they have done it more than once, lol, so ya, I would consider a game mechanism left intentionally for people who can't advance through the game normally.

Modifié par Drawn75, 28 octobre 2009 - 09:24 .

[Red Viking]

It's not cheating. What you're doing, in essence, is coming up with a very creative solution according to what the game allows you to do



I don't see how this is an ethical question though, because that implies that people should behave a certain way when playing a single-player game.

[BluesMan1956]

Drawn75 wrote...

Besthesda loves that, even in Fallout3 you can do the same with chinese stealth suit, that's just their thing, their method of making game playable for n00bs who treat it like action/fps rather than character development.

In other Bioware games, stealths are usually dropped after any agressive actions so I would not worry about it. Although t is true that even in BG II you can stealth through most creatures that have no true-seeing, lay down bunch of traps and instagib creatures upon aggro. Which hopefully won't happen again.

Some might call them exploits like FF6's vanish+doom, BG1's sphere of invulnerability to silence caster mobs... but for Besthesda it's more intentional than anything since they have done it more than once, lol, so ya, I would consider a game mechanism left intentionally for people who can't advance through the game normally.

The Chinese Stealth Armor was not the same as 100% Chameleon.  They could still detect you and come after you and once you made an aggressive move, they get a bead on you quickly.  Of course it is easier to slip back into invisibility, but it is more like 50% chameleon

[IRICHARDI]

Being invulnerable is boring imho

[Evilsod]

Its not cheating, its just abusive/exploitative. Perhaps a fully invisible party may have weaknesses, but 100% chamaeleon gave you practical invunerability.



Then again using it and cheapening the ingame experience is your own fault, sure its funny to facestab the same guy 3 times without him seeing you, but the novelty wears off and your even more bored than you were before.



Puts me in mind of the Zodiac Spear in FFXII. You *could* go and get it early, which was an extremely challenging thing to do. But if you then turned around and started using it you'd be 1 shotting every enemy for the next 10 hours of gameplay and be boring yourself to death. Its not cheating, but it may aswell be.

[BluesMan1956]

IRICHARDI wrote...

Being invulnerable is boring imho

I dunno.   I think all mercinaries have their price....

[EricHVela]

If the game allows it, the only thing you're cheating is your own experience. (Never tried for 100% Chameleon. Might have to load the game up again and see about it.)

[BluesMan1956]

ReggarBlane wrote...

If the game allows it, the only thing you're cheating is your own experience. (Never tried for 100% Chameleon. Might have to load the game up again and see about it.)

You'll need as many wearable-at-the-same-time garments as total soul gems.  5 grand soul gems is the fewest you'll need unless you managed to find the Ring of Chameleon (25%)

[Baelin Firestorm]

BluesMan1956 wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...

If the game allows it, the only thing you're cheating is your own experience. (Never tried for 100% Chameleon. Might have to load the game up again and see about it.)

You'll need as many wearable-at-the-same-time garments as total soul gems.  5 grand soul gems is the fewest you'll need unless you managed to find the Ring of Chameleon (25%)

You also need very high Illusion (tree containing the Chameleon spell) skills to be able to enchant the items.