402 réponses à ce sujet

[truestatic]

ptibog wrote...

JimmyG wrote...

I love the fighting. So who is wrong?

you are,
the fighting is broken, the rpg elements are broken.

this interactive movie doesn't deserve 60€.

Absolutely right!  jimmy G, taste is subjective.  But yours is wrong and mine is right and you should feel bad about it.

[Sithlord715]

Demonicom wrote...

Sithlord715 wrote...

Demonicom wrote...

It occurs to me that this whole argument could be ruled null and void had the auto-attack feature been enabled.
I dislike spamming the X button (I play on PS3) just as much as the next guy, but it IS refreshing to see a different take on the combat system, especially since I've played DA:O through so many characters.

I fail to see how making the combat system worse by having you mindlessly mash a button is "refreshing"

.........I said "I dislike spamming the X button.  I really can't make that any clearer.
I also said "it IS refreshing to see a different take on the combat system, especially since I've played DA:O through so many characters".

Now I know I wasn't being very clear there, but, rephrased, that paragraph means:  "I like the new combat animations and the way the new combat system works.  I do not like hitting the X button all the time though."

Does that work?

Lol, yes it does clarify your point. But idk man, I don't see how you can like the way it works when 80% is mashing the same button. Even with Auto Attack, the combat is still abysmal, mainly due to the "wave system" and downright cheap enemies

[Stalky24]

I actually like combat more then in origins. But I am lover of action RPGs and no game offers this mix between pause'n'play tactic and action combat.

There are things I dont agree with (waves and backstab-teleport), but overall, I enjoy "just playing it"

Modifié par Stalky24, 16 mars 2011 - 08:58 .

[Demonicom]

Sithlord715 wrote...

Demonicom wrote...

Sithlord715 wrote...

Demonicom wrote...

It occurs to me that this whole argument could be ruled null and void had the auto-attack feature been enabled.
I dislike spamming the X button (I play on PS3) just as much as the next guy, but it IS refreshing to see a different take on the combat system, especially since I've played DA:O through so many characters.

I fail to see how making the combat system worse by having you mindlessly mash a button is "refreshing"

.........I said "I dislike spamming the X button.  I really can't make that any clearer.
I also said "it IS refreshing to see a different take on the combat system, especially since I've played DA:O through so many characters".

Now I know I wasn't being very clear there, but, rephrased, that paragraph means:  "I like the new combat animations and the way the new combat system works.  I do not like hitting the X button all the time though."

Does that work?

Lol, yes it does clarify your point. But idk man, I don't see how you can like the way it works when 80% is mashing the same button. Even with Auto Attack, the combat is still abysmal, mainly due to the "wave system" and downright cheap enemies

I actually agree on the wave system, which is why I want auto-attack even more.  My poor thumb can't take much more abuse. 
I dunno, the thing I liked in Origins was that my character was doing the basic attacks, and I was handling all the special abilities.  That system just makes me nastalgic for FFXI I guess. 

[Akka le Vil]

Demonicom wrote...

I know you didn't talk about auto-attack in the OP, hence why my paragraph started with "It occurs to me", thus indicating that I had an idea to add to your argument.

Hem...
You said that enabling the auto-attack could render the whole argument null and void, while, as I point and you admit, I didn't talk about the auto-attack.
So... if the argument isn't about the auto-attack, how enabling it could make it null and void ?

That's... not really easily understandable from my point of view

[wikkedjoker]

I know I'll get no love for my post but: PC gaming is dying.
WHY is PC gaming dying? Well look at what happened to Crysis 2 Leaked 51 days before release.
So whats the answer? Develop for consoles. One its easier simply because an xbox 360 and PS3 had the same specs yesterday as it had 4 years ago.
By no means am I saying that the console is better than the PC. I'm just saying Bioware wants to make money, and Dragon Age 2's combat works more on the console than it does the PC.

[Sithlord715]

wikkedjoker wrote...

I know I'll get no love for my post but: PC gaming is dying.
WHY is PC gaming dying? Well look at what happened to Crysis 2 Leaked 51 days before release.
So whats the answer? Develop for consoles. One its easier simply because an xbox 360 and PS3 had the same specs yesterday as it had 4 years ago.
By no means am I saying that the console is better than the PC. I'm just saying Bioware wants to make money, and Dragon Age 2's combat works more on the console than it does the PC.

The sales for DA:O (PC), Starcraft 2, Fallout:NV, and WoW would like to have a word with you.

Seriously, this foolish notion of "PC gaming is dieing" has been around since 2000, and every year it's proven otherwise. Yes, a DX 9, bug filled Beta of Crysis 2 did leak, but it is completely unplayable. Not to mention that most of the PC gaming community stood firm in their support of Crytek and plan on purchasing the game. You DO realize that console piracy is just as bad as PC piracy? DA2 was leaked over a week before the game was released and downloaded by thousands

Also, your statement that "Bioware wants to make money" by relying on console sales is also foolish, as they are currently spending millions on The Old Republic, a PC only game

[Tristam25]

As opposed the robot like animation of DA:O? Mages looked like they were poking something, warriors looked like they hardly swung thier weapon, and rogues looked like they were just stabbing most of the time. DA II has made combat a lot more fluid. Some parts are exaggerated however, such as Varric's Rain of Arrows; no way Bianca shot that many arrows in half a second.

[Random-r.i.p-]

Props to the OP for saying it how it is. Hit the nail on the head. I'm scared this will continue happening to our true game designers that keep being bought out by the big dogs. Game's will continue to be consolized as it increase's profits....

[Soilborn88]

Akka le Vil wrote...

I've not yet finished the game, and I was determined to not give my opinion before the end, because I believe in fair review.
But though it's not the whole game, I really have to get it out of my chest. The fighting is pure, raw, utter, atrocious sh*tty garbage. It's a disgrace to look at and to play, and I feel dumber each time I have to fight something.

Animations are utterly ridiculous, the mages and rogues in particular, they are some kind of idiotic dances filled with stupid moves that make me just /facepalm - jumping around, waving weapons uselessly. Dragon Age was supposed to be the "pseudo-realistic and gritty" franchise, this circus is the total opposite. Any immersion and any "seriousness" is killed outright with the party of clowns that look like a children's parody of kung-fu movies.
I'm especially rattled by this because I find "realistic" moves much more classy and endearing than over-the-top idiotic acrobacy, and because they used the pretext of "cool moves" to butcher class (like removing two-weapon fighting for warriors) with the argument that it's a tradeoff to not have the "boring moves" of DAO. And then we get this nauseating display of retardness. Please, give me "boring" any day over this.

The pace and speed is also ridiculous, with people slashing away with huge swords like if they were made of paper, with very choppy movements (supposed to reflect quickness ?).

Exploding corpses all over and the mass-AoEing add to the general feeling of over-the-top stupid/parodic action movie.


So, the rendering is trash, the immersion is zero, the idiotic quotient is OVER NINE THOUSANDS. Maybe the tactical side will save the day ?

Scratch that. There is nearly no tactical idea even in hard.
First, as it was widely said, no Friendly Fire before nightmare. It makes just a shower of flame and ice land right in the middle of the your character without any consequences. You can guess how it helps with the beat-them-all factor above.

Then, the very design of the fight is downright ugly. It can be summed up by 99 % of trash coming in waves, spawning everywhere and destroying any idea of actually trying to think tactical and positioning your characters.
You have swarms of foes everywhere, clashing horribly with the settings (dozens of bandits in every corners of the streets, jumping from roofs and spawning from nothingness, please).
Bosses are hard, but it's more "Street Fighter hard" than "tactically hard", and the trash is dumbingly easy.
They also have kept the "instant healing out of combat" from DAO, which was already excessively "arcade", which makes fight feel quite meaningless also, as it's exactly the same if you end up with 1 hp or full hp (you're insta-healed in the next three seconds anyway).

Finally, the UI has been justly trashed. No isometric camera and constantly reseting AI makes using more than character an annoyance, and trying to target the ground from more than three metres a pain.

In the end, I just select everyone, clic on one mob until he dies, and repeat it until everything is dead on-screen. It keeps my party together, which avoid the "the fragile guy I left in the rear had been ganged upon by magically appearing wave" and the lack of FF and commonplace of AoE means I can just spam everything without thinking.



In conclusion : fighting is a pain, it's just some kind of bad marriage between a simplistic beat-them-all and an avorted attempt to make fighting tactical, only taking the worst of both part (lack of twitchy gameplay from tactical, lack of thought, immersion and just-rush-in-the-group of beat-them-all) and making every fight a bore or a pain. Everything below Nightmare is just totally dumbed down, and Nightmare only make the ridiculousness of ultra-action design even more jarring.
And sadly, not only fighting is repulsively bad, it's also even more proeminent, plenty of it everywhere. Bad, and in greater quantity. Oh joy...
I'm considering putting everything on "casual" just to be able to rip through any fight quickly to get rid of it.

There is some things I like in the game. There is some things I dislike. I'll keep the overall opinion for later.
But the fighting, which was supposedly the core of the changes and was the justification for many of the most controversial ones, is one huge, total, utter FAIL. I can't imagine how someone could have thought of it, even less how he could have dared to propose it, and my brain cries and hurts thinking that not only it was done, but a whole lot of people ENDORSED it.

No cookie for you, Bioware, I'm at a loss for words to express just how bad you dropped the ball on this one.

I couldn't have said it better my self. Amen brother, unfortunately our opinions no longer matter. It's the border Fable/Dynasty Warrior  crowd that call the shots now.


Dragon Age 2 is there game, not ours.

[2papercuts]

Tristam25 wrote...

As opposed the robot like animation of DA:O? Mages looked like they were poking something, warriors looked like they hardly swung thier weapon, and rogues looked like they were just stabbing most of the time. DA II has made combat a lot more fluid. Some parts are exaggerated however, such as Varric's Rain of Arrows; no way Bianca shot that many arrows in half a second.

I almost think that the ridiculous animations, like the arrows, is worse because it works against the immersion. The insane, unrealistic, and and sometimes completely pointless animations are counter productive to the overall tone of the story.

[Ghidorah14]

The combat feels...odd, to say the least. Is it more fun?

Eh, kinda. But it gets old quickly. Things just move too fast to stop and think tactically. Mashing the attack button blows pretty hard as well. Makes combat feel like a button masher/beat-em-up, or "beam-em-up" if you play a mage, lol.

"Beam me up, Varric!"



With two-handed and shield+sword, its not so bad, because they're sorta fun to look at. But with mage, its so bad I dont even want to play as a mage now. That ridiculous "dance" they do as they fire their staff bolts, as well as the repetitive sounds (kerswish, kerswish, kerswish, kerswish....TOOOSSSSHH) make it unbearable.

Seriously, the mage looks like a complete fool spinning and dancing while firing energy bolts. What the point of it? Its all flash and no substance.

Personally, I think it would've been FAR better if the mage fired single bolts at a time, sort of like a shotgun, instead of a chained combo. Something like this:



@ the 0:06 mark.

THAT, IMO< would've been much better than having my mage fight like a ballerina. =P

Modifié par Ghidorah14, 16 mars 2011 - 10:33 .

[DieHigh2012]

I love the fighting, your opinion is different.

So............ CRY MOOAARRRR

Your slated opinion does not equal fact.

[Caralampio]

I agree with the OP. Combat is idiotic. On top of all it's boring, which may seem a contradiction. The animations are much faster, so much that you can barely see them, but for all that dramatic, ultrafast slash-slashing each attack does relatively little damage. Instead of bringing down a hurlock with two or three well placed (and more realistically-looking) hits, you have to slash-slash, slash-slash him about 20 times. I actually only choose a target, then let the character do his slash-slashing until he's done, and actually remove my hands from the keyboard and mouse and cross my arms while I watch boredly. When he's standing there doing nothing, it means he's done and I have to choose another target for him.

[Vicious]

I definetly agree stuff dies too slow [chop chop chop] and the attacks don't look like they are hitting anything half the time.

Also the deathblows like leaping onto the Dragon and slomo finishing it are gone. Very bad move by Bioware.

[Dnii]

Regradless of whether you like slow paced combat or fast paced it boggles me people actually think that da:o combat LOOKS better...
characters looked like they were ice skating or wearing bars of soap on their feet.
Half the time melee moves never even connected with enemies, you'd swing at where an enemy was a second ago and still somehow hit it. Mages did nothing but prod the air with their staves.
The vaunted "deathblows" 9/10 my character would deathblow the air after the enemy was already dead on the ground. The dragon deathblow was the most amusing, my character leaped onto an invisible dragon outside of the actual dragons model and wiggled around in the air... then landed a deathblow on the "air dragon" so powerful that the actual dragon died and stopped moving 2-3 seconds before the invisible one he was riding around finally died and let my pc back onto the ground... it was embarrassingly bad looking. Defending that just shows how in denial the da:o community is.

See it all the time, non-mainstream game comes out, non-mainstream players form a cult following where they can feel special and unique. Then the second the developer tries to improve or make changes they feel necessary to their game the community feels betrayed and goes toxic... clinging to even the obviously poor aspects of the original... like combat animations lulz.

[TJSolo]

characters looked like they were ice skating or wearing bars of soap on their feet.

At the time DAO all of 2 years ago, no they did not look that way. In hindsight when using current technology as the bar to judge an older game, maybe but that is more of a bias than a problem with the game.

Half the time melee moves never even connected with enemies, you'd swing at where an enemy was a second ago and still somehow hit it.

That is a mechanic that evens the playing field of melee vs range and prevents abusive kiting. Not a realistic feature but gameplay-wise such things need to be done.

The vaunted "deathblows" 9/10 my character would deathblow the air after the enemy was already dead on the ground.

An internet fraction is still an internet percent, untrue hyperbole.

See it all the time, non-mainstream game comes out, non-mainstream players form a cult following where they can feel special and unique.

Useless labeling because people are not that easily classified.

[HorrorScope]

Akka le Vil wrote...
I can enjoy frenzied action like anybody else. But I tend to enjoy it more when it's actually fitting the style. Story-driven RPG with emphasis on believable world history and settings clashes horribly with over-the-top action-based fighting style.

My friend says he can understand how someone has that view. He just doesn't share it. I really have no opinion and live safely there.

[HorrorScope]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

HorrorScope wrote...

When you say "How can this be taken seriously". How can any game be taken seriously? It's a fantasy game, game!=serious.

This has been answered _several_ times in this thread.
The main issue here with combat is the credibility and how it fits with the game lore.

DAO is dark, gritty, mature; the combat _reflects_ that and makes it credible.

DA2 is supposed to be in the same mature world, however now you get combat which is nowhere as credible as DAO combat is.

The OP already stated this. Several times. I guess people are reading the first post, jump to the last site and ignore what's been said already; there's too much to read, perhaps?

Perhaps, but then perhaps some just see it different. About all this credibility stuff, I dunno, I wasn't engrossed in the serious part of DAO. I actually felt without some mods, it was a weaker Bioware attempt. I felt the DnD rules set for pause based fighting was much deeper in their NWN series. That said I don't like how Bioware's been handling a lot of their paused based fantasy games for a lot of years now, including their DnD efforts since NWN.

I would say with their fantasy games, Bioware changes it up a lot from release to release. NWN's add-on's always made some major gameplay changes between each. So knowing your history, the DA2 changes perhaps shouldn't come as a surprise. I don't know if they do it to try and keep things fresh or they are just never really satisfied.

As much as one may not like the over the top action in this game, I feel it's actually at least a direction where it feels more complete vs a model that isn't fleshed out well in any direction. DA in my book was average as either a turn-based or action combat modeled game, master of none. Instead of playing it safe, they tried to find a strength, whichever way they went they were going to lose with at least a fair part of their base. If they stayed more focued on pause-fighting, the ruleset in general needed a lot more work and depth. I would have been fine with that to.

[da2rs]

My rogue reminds me of all the 1970's low budget kung fu films i have seen

[Dnii]

 

 At the time DAO all of 2 years ago, no they did not look that way. In hindsight when using current technology as the bar to judge an older game, maybe but that is more of a bias than a problem with the game. 

DAO came out at nearly the same time as games like Assassins creed 2, the technology was there for animations as simple as walking around...

 That is a mechanic that evens the playing field of melee vs range and prevents abusive kiting. Not a realistic feature but gameplay-wise such things need to be done. 

Or... you could have decent animations where the character simply lunges at nearby enemies like every modern action game. People in real do have more than one set speed they can move around at afterall..

 An internet fraction is still an internet percent, untrue hyperbole.

Go watch a deathblow movie, some the pc lines up with the monster better than others but i think most people would agree they look pretty poor, Even when the pc lines up perfectly with the enemy it slides all around like its magneticly attached to the dragon instead of actually holding on... and the movements don't look smooth, looks far less realistic than da2 animations even. Fact remains nothing felt like it had any impact in dao, your character struggled to swing its massive sword and the enemy barely felt the blow. A monster would be gnawing on your backside and everything but your healthbar would remain completely unfazed. I've seen more realistic larp.

 Useless labeling because people are not that easily classified. 

Da:o is a B game, da2 is a B game. How else do you explain all the 3-4/10 reviews mainly coming from da:o fans that rate the original da:o as their favorite rpg?

[HorrorScope]

You want a solid tactical turn-based game. Knights of the Chalice. It is a refreshing game.

[Funkjoker]

Hmm, tell me, HorrorScope, which RPGs are your all-time favorites? [with special attention in terms of combat, of course ^^]

Modifié par Jean-Funk Van Damme, 17 mars 2011 - 12:15 .

[Valenithe]

You know, it's threads like this that make me wanna kill people who think their opinions matter. Don't like it? Don't fu**ing play it. Simple. Bored with it? Stop playing it. Come back to it later when you want some hack and slash with alittle story added. I just hate it when someone makes a thread like this, and starts to bash other people who are bringing up their own opinion. Noone cares if you don't like it. Cool if you do like it. But if you don't, shut the hell up.

[Ghidorah14]

Valenithe wrote...

You know, it's threads like this that make me wanna kill people who think their opinions matter. Don't like it? Don't fu**ing play it. Simple. Bored with it? Stop playing it. Come back to it later when you want some hack and slash with alittle story added. I just hate it when someone makes a thread like this, and starts to bash other people who are bringing up their own opinion. Noone cares if you don't like it. Cool if you do like it. But if you don't, shut the hell up.

I'm sorry, but does the concept of free speech mean nothing to you?

No?

How about constructive criticism?

Still no?

Then you're just close-minded. Or stupid. Take your pick.




But tell me, why shouldnt he be allowed to talk about a game he dislikes? I'd say he has as much right to complain about a game as you do to complain about his opinion. Afterall, nobody forced you to click this topic and read his post. Dont like it? Ignore it and dont reply to it. So really, you're no better than he is. At least he's attempting an intelligent discussion. You're just attempting to stop that discussion because "if he doesnt like it he shouldnt play it." Thats some pretty stupid logic. How would he know if he didnt like it if he didnt at least play it first? And how will Bioware improve their games if no one comes out and says "hey, you kinda messed up on this part?" If anything, people like you slow or stop progress. You're a detriment to the community, basically. Hope you're happy.

If you're so willing to disregard his opinion, why should we suddenly listen to yours?

If anything, I want to enourage people here to talk about this game's negative aspects! It will allow the folks at Bioware to realize "hey, they really werent happy with this or that. Lets try and avoid making those same mistakes next time, so we can give them the game they want, and not another disappointing rush job!"

Maybe you should follow your own advice; you dont like whats being said in this topic? Dont pay attention to the topic, dont post in it, and ignore it.