402 réponses à ce sujet

[Akka le Vil]

Jarradane wrote...

I love these threads, over two thirds of the people complaining haven't registered the game, and their comments never contain anything which definitively proves they have played it, yet they go on to belligerently argue about how bad it without paying any real attention to the counterpoints of other posters.

Suspicious no?

More a proof of how some people who have been neglected in the intelligence department tend to mix what they want to believe and what is actually true.
Not coincidentally, they are usually unable to voice a proper argument, and so just grasp at the straws which are at their level of ability, trying to deflect the actual criticisms by attempting to imagine a way to simply pretend it doesn't exist.

Isn't it amusing to see they are usually on the side of the lowest common denominator ?

Il Divo wrote...

It depends on how we mean 'younger gamer'. Jade Empire featured a very basic combat system that involved the PC leaping around like a monkey. Like Jade Empire, Dragon Age II is pretty fast-paced, however I would still say that certain fights do require a good use of tactics (same amount as Origins for me).

Despite the almost comical fighting style, the story in Jade Empire was still able to be pretty mature/complex. I was able to take it seriously in spite of the arcade-style gameplay.

The most important thing is : Jade Empire was set into a mythical chinese-like world, in which superhuman kung-fu abilities are actually perfectly fitting.
Though the fighting itself was very simplistic and not that interesting, the animations were totally at home in it. 

Also, they were over-the-top, but still rather acceptable, unlike many of DA2's ones who are simply TOTALLY STUPID. The most annoying things in DA2 animations are not just that they are superficial and flashy (and as such, dumb), but that they are completely useless and even counter-productive on top of that.
I can easily accept that a martial art master make a backflip to step back from an attack - that's acrobatic but fitting and, in the setting, believable.
I find much harder to take seriously some idiot who puts himself in a completely absurd position so he can put his staff awkwardly behind his back to fire at someone who was already in front of him, just because it "looks cool".

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 18 mars 2011 - 12:52 .

[Dutch105]

Akka le Vil wrote...

[Also, they were over-the-top, but still rather acceptable, unlike many of DA2's ones who are simply TOTALLY STUPID. The most annoying things in DA2 animations are not just that they are superficial and flashy (and as such, dumb), but that they are completely useless and even counter-productive on top of that.
I can easily accept that a martial art master make a backflip to step back from an attack - that's acrobatic but fitting and, in the setting, believable.
I find much harder to take seriously some idiot who puts himself in a completely absurd position so he can put his staff awkwardly behind his back to fire at someone who was already in front of him, just because it "looks cool".

Of course, these things are part of the presentation of the game, rather than the mechanics behind the game itself.  As I tried to argue earlier, it is possible to seperate the two.  The fact something looks flashy and unrealistic doesn't mean that the game itself is dumbed down.  So while you can complain about the presentation, this is not in itself evidence for a lack of tactical depth.

[Ke11iente]

Goofy McCoy wrote...

DA2 is leaning mighty heavily towards this kind of wacky nonsense with LOLHUGE SWORDS! and other hokey staples of Japanese games, which trend towards things like "gun-swords".

It's funny you mention that. There were a few times playing the game when I really felt like it reminded me of a Final Fantasy game.......
...that's not good.

[lazuli]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Then, the very design of the fight is downright ugly. It can be summed up by 99 % of trash coming in waves, spawning everywhere and destroying any idea of actually trying to think tactical and positioning your characters.
You have swarms of foes everywhere, clashing horribly with the settings (dozens of bandits in every corners of the streets, jumping from roofs and spawning from nothingness, please).

I prefer the way combat looks now, as it is more visually engaging than Origins, but that's just a matter of taste.  I do, however, agree with your point here.  Enemies popping in at random kills tactical positioning.  I guess "at random" isn't entirely accurate, as the phrase implies a certain level of unpredictability.  When I walk into a room that's larger than the hallway preceding it, I can predict that enemies will pop up and that once I kill a few of them, more enemies will appear.  Behind me.  My prediction is correct at least 9 times out of 10.

I enjoy interesting fights and being forced to think on my toes, but I don't need popups in every fight.  I don't need to be punished for keeping my backline at the back.

[Whatever42]

Akka le Vil wrote...

More a proof of how some people who have been neglected in the intelligence department tend to mix what they want to believe and what is actually true.

There's truth in subjective opinion? And he had a valid observation. It might not mean anything - it could mean that those who bought the game are more invested in it and willing to defend it while those who pirated it aren't. It could mean that those who bought the game were bigger fans than those who pirated it and are more likely to defend it. It could could mean there are a lot of trolls. Insulting people just gives evidence the to last conclusion, though.

Personally, I thought the DA2 animations were fine. In LotR movies we had Gandalf doing the funky staff moves as well. Personally, I didn't think that was very Gandalf but nor did it ruin the movie for me. I confess it didn't add much for me but clearly it wasn't aimed at me but a younger audience.

I understand that you don't view mages doing all these hyper-kinetic moves and that it spoils your immersion. I even somewhat agree with you, although it doesn't really bother me. You'll never convince people who like it (or aren't bothered by it) that its bad any more than they can convince you its good. Just don't get too frustrated and resort to name calling (unless you are trolling, in which case flame away!).

[4love]

Akka le Vil wrote...

I've not yet finished the game, and I was determined to not give my opinion before the end, because I believe in fair review.
But though it's not the whole game, I really have to get it out of my chest. The fighting is pure, raw, utter, atrocious sh*tty garbage. It's a disgrace to look at and to play, and I feel dumber each time I have to fight something.

Animations are utterly ridiculous, the mages and rogues in particular, they are some kind of idiotic dances filled with stupid moves that make me just /facepalm - jumping around, waving weapons uselessly. Dragon Age was supposed to be the "pseudo-realistic and gritty" franchise, this circus is the total opposite. Any immersion and any "seriousness" is killed outright with the party of clowns that look like a children's parody of kung-fu movies.
I'm especially rattled by this because I find "realistic" moves much more classy and endearing than over-the-top idiotic acrobacy, and because they used the pretext of "cool moves" to butcher class (like removing two-weapon fighting for warriors) with the argument that it's a tradeoff to not have the "boring moves" of DAO. And then we get this nauseating display of retardness. Please, give me "boring" any day over this.

The pace and speed is also ridiculous, with people slashing away with huge swords like if they were made of paper, with very choppy movements (supposed to reflect quickness ?).

Exploding corpses all over and the mass-AoEing add to the general feeling of over-the-top stupid/parodic action movie.


So, the rendering is trash, the immersion is zero, the idiotic quotient is OVER NINE THOUSANDS. Maybe the tactical side will save the day ?

Scratch that. There is nearly no tactical idea even in hard.
First, as it was widely said, no Friendly Fire before nightmare. It makes just a shower of flame and ice land right in the middle of the your character without any consequences. You can guess how it helps with the beat-them-all factor above.

Then, the very design of the fight is downright ugly. It can be summed up by 99 % of trash coming in waves, spawning everywhere and destroying any idea of actually trying to think tactical and positioning your characters.
You have swarms of foes everywhere, clashing horribly with the settings (dozens of bandits in every corners of the streets, jumping from roofs and spawning from nothingness, please).
Bosses are hard, but it's more "Street Fighter hard" than "tactically hard", and the trash is dumbingly easy.
They also have kept the "instant healing out of combat" from DAO, which was already excessively "arcade", which makes fight feel quite meaningless also, as it's exactly the same if you end up with 1 hp or full hp (you're insta-healed in the next three seconds anyway).

Finally, the UI has been justly trashed. No isometric camera and constantly reseting AI makes using more than character an annoyance, and trying to target the ground from more than three metres a pain.

In the end, I just select everyone, clic on one mob until he dies, and repeat it until everything is dead on-screen. It keeps my party together, which avoid the "the fragile guy I left in the rear had been ganged upon by magically appearing wave" and the lack of FF and commonplace of AoE means I can just spam everything without thinking.



In conclusion : fighting is a pain, it's just some kind of bad marriage between a simplistic beat-them-all and an avorted attempt to make fighting tactical, only taking the worst of both part (lack of twitchy gameplay from tactical, lack of thought, immersion and just-rush-in-the-group of beat-them-all) and making every fight a bore or a pain. Everything below Nightmare is just totally dumbed down, and Nightmare only make the ridiculousness of ultra-action design even more jarring.
And sadly, not only fighting is repulsively bad, it's also even more proeminent, plenty of it everywhere. Bad, and in greater quantity. Oh joy...
I'm considering putting everything on "casual" just to be able to rip through any fight quickly to get rid of it.

There is some things I like in the game. There is some things I dislike. I'll keep the overall opinion for later.
But the fighting, which was supposedly the core of the changes and was the justification for many of the most controversial ones, is one huge, total, utter FAIL. I can't imagine how someone could have thought of it, even less how he could have dared to propose it, and my brain cries and hurts thinking that not only it was done, but a whole lot of people ENDORSED it.

No cookie for you, Bioware, I'm at a loss for words to express just how bad you dropped the ball on this one.

I agree 100% the combat kill my immersion to in the DA2 DEMO

[Dr. Impossible]

Goofy McCoy wrote...

Jade Empire was a Kung-fu tale, prerequisite crazy asian fighting was completely acceptable because it's what is expected of the setting.

As I recall the punches and kicks were actually largely realistic and done with motion capture.

[Akka le Vil]

Dutch105 wrote...

Of course, these things are part of the presentation of the game, rather than the mechanics behind the game itself.  As I tried to argue earlier, it is possible to seperate the two.  The fact something looks flashy and unrealistic doesn't mean that the game itself is dumbed down.  So while you can complain about the presentation, this is not in itself evidence for a lack of tactical depth.

You're splitting hair on one point, and answering an argument that I didn't make on the second.

First, while it's not technically a total and absolute requirement, yes filling a game with stupid animations dumbs it down. You don't need to make stupid animations unless you're trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator, which is the very REASON why mass-marketed games and movie fill themselves with flashy.

Second, if you carefully read my OP, I actually, in fact, separated the "feel" of the game (the first part, with a large emphasis on how dumb it looks and feel) from the "tactical" part of the game (the second, with a large emphasis on how action-driven rather than tactic-driven the fighting is).

[Akka le Vil]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

There's truth in subjective opinion?

/headdesk
*sigh*
What he wants to believe : "if they critics the game, they are wrong ! I'll try to find a way to make their opinions irrelevant ! I know, I'll say that anyone who hasn't a game registered has not played the game and hence can not have an informed opinion !"
Truth : you can have played the game without having it registered.

Personally, I thought the DA2 animations were fine. In LotR movies we had Gandalf doing the funky staff moves as well. Personally, I didn't think that was very Gandalf but nor did it ruin the movie for me. I confess it didn't add much for me but clearly it wasn't aimed at me but a younger audience.

Two points :
- Gandalf was using it IN MÉLÉE ! The stupid mage animations are when they're doing acrobatics while FIRING AT RANGE ! Do you make a sommersault when you shoot with a gun, or do you consider someone who does it to be a complete retard ?
- You say yourself that flashy acrobatics are aimed at younger - read : simpler and more easily impressed with superficial shiny dumb things - audience. That's pretty much one of my points about the fighting. Thanks for confirming my opinion.

I understand that you don't view mages doing all these hyper-kinetic moves and that it spoils your immersion. I even somewhat agree with you, although it doesn't really bother me. You'll never convince people who like it (or aren't bothered by it) that its bad any more than they can convince you its good. Just don't get too frustrated and resort to name calling (unless you are trolling, in which case flame away!).

My point is not to convince people to change their tastes, it's to make Bioware aware of how dumb their game look, and to remind them about the many people who actually don't like when a game consider them to be dumb kids.

[Dharren]

MonkeyKaboom wrote...


And I wasn't "owned" in anything...I'm very free actually.  Furthermore, I'm happy.  You (and the OP) aren't.  Who's in the better position?

 I have not posted here but was just reading through the arguments for/against. 

You don't sound happy, you sound unnaturally angry. Your posts are far more emotional than informative, at least in this topic; distracting and insulting. You might take your own advice and get away from your computer and go our for a pizza?

Modifié par Dharren, 18 mars 2011 - 08:33 .

[CRISIS1717]

I don't know why people are complaining, when the DLC Power Rangers outfits come out everything will look super cool.

[LiNkDeAd-]

Its the same as in origins but faster, in origins every fight was just auto, got really boreing I get in a fight I leave grab a soda come back its over go find the next fight, cept here its more intense while using the same system as the original but now its whole lot more fun for me anyways. Hope that made sense

[Shaexley]

I don't know why people are complaining, when the DLC Power Rangers outfits come out everything will look super cool.

Most insightful comment ever.

[Carlthestrange]

So its true what they say... you can't please everyone.

[abaris]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

There's truth in subjective opinion? And he had a valid observation. It might not mean anything - it could mean that those who bought the game are more invested in it and willing to defend it while those who pirated it aren't. It could mean that those who bought the game were bigger fans than those who pirated it and are more likely to defend it. It could could mean there are a lot of trolls. Insulting people just gives evidence the to last conclusion, though.

Could also mean that in light of recent board policy, people are reluctant to register their copy. Or for entirely personal reasons.

I haven't got it, but aside from the two registered games, I probably own the whole Bioware franchise. And those I only registered because I wanted some DLCs. Usually I only register professional software.

[Galad22]

Since they have stripped almost everything from game that isn't combat, you would expect it to be good.

But it really is not, it is most tedious and horrible part of the game with all the spawning trash mobs that teleport behind your mages.

[Tirigon]

[Funkjoker]

Carlthestrange wrote...

So its true what they say... you can't please everyone.

Aaah, yeah... but by pleasing the low-demands-crowd BioWare insulted not only the DAseries, but also us gamers who like high quality games we're used to get and Bioware used to make!

[ExiledMimic]

ScepticMatt wrote...

lol

I'll see your link and raise you some good music!  BLAM!

I figure if we're going to revive the thread for no reason there should be a treat?

Modifié par ExiledMimic, 22 mars 2011 - 05:37 .

[MonkeyLungs]

The combat made me NOT pre-order. Thanks for the demo Bio!
Over the top animations.
Bodies explode from being stabbed? I don't understand.
Crazy oversized weapons.
Rogue 'poofs' behind an enemy. Why can't the rogue just have a quick sidestep?
Too fast for this type of game. .

AUTO-ATTACK FOR CONSOLES PLEASE.

[Faust1979]

the way I see it is we are viewing the story through the storytellers eyes and he happens to be an over the top person that likes to exagurate so it makes sense that the gameplay would be over the top and exaggerated because the storyteller is

[Alex Kershaw]

Completely agree. All my future playthroughs will be on Casual simply because the combat is dreadful. On Origins, I love playing on Insanity because of the challenge. On DA2, it's a chore.

[MonkeyLungs]

Faust1979 wrote...

the way I see it is we are viewing the story through the storytellers eyes and he happens to be an over the top person that likes to exagurate so it makes sense that the gameplay would be over the top and exaggerated because the storyteller is

That might be an excuse you find acceptable but it just doesn't resonate with me. It doesn't make you wrong and I don't mean it as a slight in any way. Why can't the sword fighting just look like sword fighting.

Real fighting is not 'boring'. It is horrific and frightening, fast, deadly, bloody and ends in tragedy (for someone). It really doesn't need to be 'spruced up'.

[Arl Raylen]

Alex Kershaw wrote...

Completely agree. All my future playthroughs will be on Casual simply because the combat is dreadful. On Origins, I love playing on Insanity because of the challenge. On DA2, it's a chore.

Completely disagree. All my future playthroughs will be on Nightmare simply because the combat is wonderful. On Origins, I hate playing Insanity because of the tedium. On DA2, it's a blast.

Modifié par Arl Raylen, 22 mars 2011 - 06:32 .

[Evil Ryu]

the combat was fun at 1st but on my 2nd play through it got boring and repeative
i dont see myself replaying da2 as i did dao:unsure:

Modifié par Evil Ryu, 22 mars 2011 - 07:04 .