402 réponses à ce sujet

[HTTP 404]

Efesell wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...

has anyone been convinced to change their view on whether DA2 is good or not?

Oh I grow fonder and fonder of the game the more the forums gripe.

exactly, I dont understand some people's need to convince others with their "arguments" I never once saw someone say "Oh hew OP, you know what I loved DA2 but after reading your post you are so right, it is quite ridiculous the combat, I never knew!"

[ZiggyZiggy]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

Ziggy, we aren't talking about "absolut realism" here. However, we do not like fighting like all the JRPGs have. It's heavily unrealistic.
DAO's fighting is not perfect, however it's far better than what we get in this sequel.

Your username is awesome .

I should start out by saying that I may have argued a strawman, so if so I apologize.  I think we agree that the combat's going to be unrealistic, we just have an aesthetic difference regarding how unrealistic we like.  Fair enough .

I've read some old European swordfighting manuals, and some of the techniques are pretty cool and fanciful and would look neat in a Western style fantasy setting.  But I can't think of any "realistic" way to depict one person fighting a dozen other people with a sword.  And I think you'd definitely have to throw your weight behind your weapon if you're fighting an ogre or some such.

Part of it is a limitation of the medium.  Sure, any real fighter is going to slip and maneuver in subtle and technical ways that won't look over the top.  But those aren't going to show up well on screen, while big body movements show up great.  It's just like how people tend to throw haymakers in movies, not good stiff jabs.  I think they've been pretty good about not going completely over the top on particle effects or trailing weapon-glow, but maybe I just haven't noticed; I'll check again when I play tonight.  I don't want my fighter leaping 30 feet or fighting with glo-sticks, but I'm okay with him taking wild swings.

Similarly, oversized swords and armor show up better on screen.  Sometimes the limitations of the medium define the message.  I agree they're unrealistically long, but it's a sacrifice I'm willing to accept since I like being able to play from a (somewhat) zoomed out perspective.

I think the gore thing is also, weirdly enough, a limitation of the cultural medium.  Showing gibs is ridiculous... but that's a positive, in a way, because it's so cartoonish people can't be as offended.  I think if the dismemberment were more realistic, it would also be more graphic, and that could cause problems.  Frankly I'd love to see a wider variety of death animations, people crumpling over from arrow shots or losing their legs.  Not (just) because I'm a gorehound, just because I think viscera are visceral, and I like being drawn into the experience. .

Anyway, Absolut realism sounds like a vodka 

Modifié par ZiggyZiggy, 14 mars 2011 - 08:47 .

[TJSolo]

Atmosfear3 wrote...

Dragon Age was supposed to be the "pseudo-realistic and gritty" franchis

Stopped reading right there. I had a good laugh at that one.

What was it supposed to be? To me the OP has it about right. The combat in DAO was DnD-esqe with a lilttle Tolken flair. I can't even imagine how the Sacred Ashes trailer would be is "pseudo-realistic and gritty" was not the intended goal.

To the OP along with the insta-healz after a fight that all powers on cool-down immediatly comeback, mad tactics.

[Shadowcrazy4]

I like OP's post and am sad that Bioware will ignore it because, quoting one thread they responded but ill sum it up real quick, they don't like to get insulted.

so all that great wall of text that explains everything we dislike about the fight system will be ignored because Bioware doesn't want you insulting their precious gem that's really a ringpop yanked from the ring part....

I wonder how DA3 is going to be if all they're listening to is all the fanboys yelling OMFGZ AWESUMZ!

.....facepalm.mp4 this is really not looking good for Dragon Age...seems like the series is dead now

[Lee337]

Akka le Vil wrote...

and because they used the pretext of "cool moves" to butcher class (like removing two-weapon fighting for warriors) with the argument that it's a tradeoff to not have the "boring moves" of DAO. And then we get this nauseating display of retardness.

I missed the freedom to pick and choose weapons , rogues can only use daggers, I used to like using a longsword and dagger. So I played as a two handed warrior, which was better, smashes up several enemies at once!

Other than that I thought it was improved overal, with the exception of the magically appearing enemy waves which utterly destroyed the fighting for me and overshadowed all the improvements.

[Nightfish103]

Thank god I'm not the only one who thinks the fighting is a huge step back. The OP pretty much says it all. I can't find anything that's not wrong with the fighting (maybe that's the message? fighting is wrong?)

Watching my warrior in full plate fight makes Anime seems slow, if you know that I mean... And if that doesn't yet break immersion, there's always the exploding, self-dismembering corpses. Erm, hello? I stabbed you, no need to scatter your limbs all the way back to Ferelden... Oh yea... And there was this one time some guy stabbed me through the chest, picked me up with his sword through my chest and waved me around like a flag then tossed me to the ground and I lost 10 HP from that... Erm... yea. Not ridiculous at all.

Tactics are needed? Eh... no? Maybe on Nightmare, but to be honest, the interface does not make me want to do that. Where is my isometric view so I can actually manage more than one guy? Doing that now is so incredibly tedious I actually turned the difficulty *down* just so I could get the game over with.

In theory, I do like the combinations you can do, adding a status effect and exploiting it, but honestly, are you using that? Even if I ignore the fact that I don't need to do these things, the interface deters me from doing them "for fun". It's just too cumbersome to switch between characters because each time I switch, I'll need to fiddle with the camera again. No thanks.


DA2 has dissappointed me on many levels, and to be honest, I expected the story to be weaker than DA:0, but what I did not expect is for gameplay to deteriorate like this.

I haven't been this disappointed with a game in a very long time, mostly because I tend not to expect anything, but Bioware was "above" that until now. Even Awakenings wasn't this bad. And Awakenings can't hold a candle to DA:O. And that's just combat. If you actually compare substance... Oh god...

Modifié par Nightfish103, 14 mars 2011 - 09:14 .

[Beerfish]

Whether it is good, bad, exciting or boring it is very different in regards to class usefulness that is for sure. Totally different in what the most effective group dynamic is. Two handers are more useful, sword and board are still pretty good but not overpowered on the fighting side and mages are less powerful. Because I am playing as a mage my 1st time through and I wanted Merrill in my party I most often have two mages and that is making it tougher than it could be for me I expect. I'll find out for sure on my 2nd playthrough.

[KalDurenik]

There are 2 good things:

*warriors / rogues have more fun abilities
*When you press a button your character react (most of the time but some times not due to a bug i guess)

Everything else is average to downright horrible when it come to the combat.

[Caveat53]

After having read a couple of reviews, playing the demo and reading this thread I have decided that I will not be purchasing DA2 now or in the future.

One of the main reasons is indeed the combat.  The first feeling that I had when I played the demo was that the combat had lost any 'depth'. Over simplified 1 button insta-kills.  Combat simplification has been a dissapointing trend with BioWare.  I was dissapointed with Mass Effect 2 for similar reasons.  

I sincerely hope that BioWare collects this thread as feedback and uses it to make a better product in the future. The talent is there, and the company is great but they must also cater to grass roots fans that have been purchasing and playing their games for 10+ years.

Eventually those people are going to realize that what they are buying is not what they are wanting out of a game, and they will stop buying it.

[Loup Blanc]

The fighting is not repulsive. You have to get used to it, and to the speed. It takes time but eventually you end up being able to play tactically like DAO, without any button-mashing.

[Morrigan the Witch]

Combat is fine, the ridiculous amount of enemy HP isn't.

[Capeo]

I adore the fighting. Far, far less boring than the Tank/DPS mage strategy of DAO. I actually feel like I'm playing the combat rather than just clicking in commands. I also don't get all the fuss. You can play combat exactly like DAO. Tactics are hugely important still. And now you actually have to account for changing flanks. If you want FF then play Nightmare. Problem solved. The combat, in my opinion, is the single biggest improvement over DAO which might as well been turn based rather than actively controlled.

[Chadthesad]

Playing through DA:II, then going back to Origins. Just feels, inadequate. Combat in Origins/Awakening was good, it was traditional in regards to the movement speed and attack speed animations. Once you play DA:II the combat is fluid, the animations are spectacular. I could do without the exploding bodies, and have more death animations, but it's fine as is.

[TheKnave69]

Oh, you were talking abou the fighting in the game. I thought you were talking about the fighting on the boards.

[DKJaigen]

Tastes are subjective and this thread and everyone in it is ****ing stupid. in my opnion i like the new combat system way better then DAO. want to call me a fanboy for? good for you mate but i don't care. and with this post i permanently take my leave from this thread

[IronVanguard]

I've got to say, those constantly spawning mobs are really annoying for me. Just don't get why they did that.

I do think mages just look weird with all their flips. A little less bland than DAO is fine, but really? Where do they learn acrobatics?

[TheTrooper1138]

Stiler wrote...

The two handed animations in DA:O were LAUGHABLY bad. Swords are NOT heavy, I repeat, swords are NOT heavy. A two handed sword could easily be under FIVE pounds, or up to seven'ish. They were no where near "heavy" (it'd defeat the point if swords were heavy, since you have to move them about and everything, you don't want people to get tired easily).

Have you ever held a 2-handed sword? Well, I have, and I can tell you, it's pretty darn heavy... I didn't much like 2-handed combat in DA:O, but in DAII it's just plain ridiculous...

Also I liked in DA:O how the characters would look like the fighting was exhausting... you didn't rush through a group of Darkspawn, slicing them up, you really felt how every sword-strike was straining and that made the finishing moves that much more satisfying imao.

Joshd21 wrote...

register your dragon age 2 game then come back, I don't speak to trolls that don't even have the game registered

why should he? What extra value does that provide? On the contrary, it just devalues it, 'cause it's then bound to this account... so who's the troll here? :innocent:

Modifié par TheTrooper1138, 14 mars 2011 - 10:19 .

[The Gaming Fiend]

Kamifel wrote...

two complainers who didn't buy the game but say they know the gameplay .

Kudo !

Just because he disagrees with it does not mean he didn't play it, stop being childish.

[The Gaming Fiend]

It sounds like people who disliked the combat enjoyed the weight behind it and the more Dark fantasy of the setting and combat itself.

Those who did like the combat split into two camps :-

Enjoyed the control and more input that was felt with the controls.

Like anime swordfights.


Sadly I will not purchase Dragon Age 2 because I enjoyed my sturdy tank-like character feeling.

Well sturdy, using a weighty weapon and shield instead of flips and what looks like choreographed fight moves.

[injek]

I have 3 characters, Mage, Warrior, Rogue. On my Warrior, I'm 13 hours in, 15 on my mage, and only 1 on my rogue. But I still don't mind the combat. I wish that I didn't have to spam A till nothing was moving. (Why can't I auto-attack? Sure, make me attack slower. God knows I don't enjoy going AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA- B -AAAAAAAAAA.

But other than that? Me and the combat get along fine.

[Salaciouschicken]

Akka le Vil wrote...

I've not yet finished the game, and I was determined to not give my opinion before the end, because I believe in fair review.
But though it's not the whole game, I really have to get it out of my chest. The fighting is pure, raw, utter, atrocious sh*tty garbage. It's a disgrace to look at and to play, and I feel dumber each time I have to fight something.

Animations are utterly ridiculous, the mages and rogues in particular, they are some kind of idiotic dances filled with stupid moves that make me just /facepalm - jumping around, waving weapons uselessly. Dragon Age was supposed to be the "pseudo-realistic and gritty" franchise, this circus is the total opposite. Any immersion and any "seriousness" is killed outright with the party of clowns that look like a children's parody of kung-fu movies.
I'm especially rattled by this because I find "realistic" moves much more classy and endearing than over-the-top idiotic acrobacy, and because they used the pretext of "cool moves" to butcher class (like removing two-weapon fighting for warriors) with the argument that it's a tradeoff to not have the "boring moves" of DAO. And then we get this nauseating display of retardness. Please, give me "boring" any day over this.

The pace and speed is also ridiculous, with people slashing away with huge swords like if they were made of paper, with very choppy movements (supposed to reflect quickness ?).

Exploding corpses all over and the mass-AoEing add to the general feeling of over-the-top stupid/parodic action movie.


So, the rendering is trash, the immersion is zero, the idiotic quotient is OVER NINE THOUSANDS. Maybe the tactical side will save the day ?

Scratch that. There is nearly no tactical idea even in hard.
First, as it was widely said, no Friendly Fire before nightmare. It makes just a shower of flame and ice land right in the middle of the your character without any consequences. You can guess how it helps with the beat-them-all factor above.

Then, the very design of the fight is downright ugly. It can be summed up by 99 % of trash coming in waves, spawning everywhere and destroying any idea of actually trying to think tactical and positioning your characters.
You have swarms of foes everywhere, clashing horribly with the settings (dozens of bandits in every corners of the streets, jumping from roofs and spawning from nothingness, please).
Bosses are hard, but it's more "Street Fighter hard" than "tactically hard", and the trash is dumbingly easy.
They also have kept the "instant healing out of combat" from DAO, which was already excessively "arcade", which makes fight feel quite meaningless also, as it's exactly the same if you end up with 1 hp or full hp (you're insta-healed in the next three seconds anyway).

Finally, the UI has been justly trashed. No isometric camera and constantly reseting AI makes using more than character an annoyance, and trying to target the ground from more than three metres a pain.

In the end, I just select everyone, clic on one mob until he dies, and repeat it until everything is dead on-screen. It keeps my party together, which avoid the "the fragile guy I left in the rear had been ganged upon by magically appearing wave" and the lack of FF and commonplace of AoE means I can just spam everything without thinking.



In conclusion : fighting is a pain, it's just some kind of bad marriage between a simplistic beat-them-all and an avorted attempt to make fighting tactical, only taking the worst of both part (lack of twitchy gameplay from tactical, lack of thought, immersion and just-rush-in-the-group of beat-them-all) and making every fight a bore or a pain. Everything below Nightmare is just totally dumbed down, and Nightmare only make the ridiculousness of ultra-action design even more jarring.
And sadly, not only fighting is repulsively bad, it's also even more proeminent, plenty of it everywhere. Bad, and in greater quantity. Oh joy...
I'm considering putting everything on "casual" just to be able to rip through any fight quickly to get rid of it.

There is some things I like in the game. There is some things I dislike. I'll keep the overall opinion for later.
But the fighting, which was supposedly the core of the changes and was the justification for many of the most controversial ones, is one huge, total, utter FAIL. I can't imagine how someone could have thought of it, even less how he could have dared to propose it, and my brain cries and hurts thinking that not only it was done, but a whole lot of people ENDORSED it.

No cookie for you, Bioware, I'm at a loss for words to express just how bad you dropped the ball on this one.

The people who think the combat is good are the same people who shill over 12 dollars to see a michael bay film. You're absolutely right, and don't think others don't feel the same way. DAO was meant to be psuedo-realistic, and they even sold it as such. DA2s combat can be gratifying for the first 10 minutes of playing, but then quickly devolves into a untactical mess. Bioware should be embarassed, and I don't say that as a "troll." I say that as a developer who has earned so much respect only to start pandering to gamings lowest commen denominator.

[Salaciouschicken]

Anyone else frustrated that the enemies all have a formula. All the enemies use the same spells, or abilities, despite race or faction. Why did that Templar just do a back flip and disappear like every other assassin enemy in the game. Damn Bioware, how absurdly lazy can you get?

[Capeo]

Salaciouschicken wrote...

Akka le Vil wrote...

I've not yet finished the game, and I was determined to not give my opinion before the end, because I believe in fair review.
But though it's not the whole game, I really have to get it out of my chest. The fighting is pure, raw, utter, atrocious sh*tty garbage. It's a disgrace to look at and to play, and I feel dumber each time I have to fight something.

Animations are utterly ridiculous, the mages and rogues in particular, they are some kind of idiotic dances filled with stupid moves that make me just /facepalm - jumping around, waving weapons uselessly. Dragon Age was supposed to be the "pseudo-realistic and gritty" franchise, this circus is the total opposite. Any immersion and any "seriousness" is killed outright with the party of clowns that look like a children's parody of kung-fu movies.
I'm especially rattled by this because I find "realistic" moves much more classy and endearing than over-the-top idiotic acrobacy, and because they used the pretext of "cool moves" to butcher class (like removing two-weapon fighting for warriors) with the argument that it's a tradeoff to not have the "boring moves" of DAO. And then we get this nauseating display of retardness. Please, give me "boring" any day over this.

The pace and speed is also ridiculous, with people slashing away with huge swords like if they were made of paper, with very choppy movements (supposed to reflect quickness ?).

Exploding corpses all over and the mass-AoEing add to the general feeling of over-the-top stupid/parodic action movie.


So, the rendering is trash, the immersion is zero, the idiotic quotient is OVER NINE THOUSANDS. Maybe the tactical side will save the day ?

Scratch that. There is nearly no tactical idea even in hard.
First, as it was widely said, no Friendly Fire before nightmare. It makes just a shower of flame and ice land right in the middle of the your character without any consequences. You can guess how it helps with the beat-them-all factor above.

Then, the very design of the fight is downright ugly. It can be summed up by 99 % of trash coming in waves, spawning everywhere and destroying any idea of actually trying to think tactical and positioning your characters.
You have swarms of foes everywhere, clashing horribly with the settings (dozens of bandits in every corners of the streets, jumping from roofs and spawning from nothingness, please).
Bosses are hard, but it's more "Street Fighter hard" than "tactically hard", and the trash is dumbingly easy.
They also have kept the "instant healing out of combat" from DAO, which was already excessively "arcade", which makes fight feel quite meaningless also, as it's exactly the same if you end up with 1 hp or full hp (you're insta-healed in the next three seconds anyway).

Finally, the UI has been justly trashed. No isometric camera and constantly reseting AI makes using more than character an annoyance, and trying to target the ground from more than three metres a pain.

In the end, I just select everyone, clic on one mob until he dies, and repeat it until everything is dead on-screen. It keeps my party together, which avoid the "the fragile guy I left in the rear had been ganged upon by magically appearing wave" and the lack of FF and commonplace of AoE means I can just spam everything without thinking.



In conclusion : fighting is a pain, it's just some kind of bad marriage between a simplistic beat-them-all and an avorted attempt to make fighting tactical, only taking the worst of both part (lack of twitchy gameplay from tactical, lack of thought, immersion and just-rush-in-the-group of beat-them-all) and making every fight a bore or a pain. Everything below Nightmare is just totally dumbed down, and Nightmare only make the ridiculousness of ultra-action design even more jarring.
And sadly, not only fighting is repulsively bad, it's also even more proeminent, plenty of it everywhere. Bad, and in greater quantity. Oh joy...
I'm considering putting everything on "casual" just to be able to rip through any fight quickly to get rid of it.

There is some things I like in the game. There is some things I dislike. I'll keep the overall opinion for later.
But the fighting, which was supposedly the core of the changes and was the justification for many of the most controversial ones, is one huge, total, utter FAIL. I can't imagine how someone could have thought of it, even less how he could have dared to propose it, and my brain cries and hurts thinking that not only it was done, but a whole lot of people ENDORSED it.

No cookie for you, Bioware, I'm at a loss for words to express just how bad you dropped the ball on this one.

The people who think the combat is good are the same people who shill over 12 dollars to see a michael bay film. You're absolutely right, and don't think others don't feel the same way. DAO was meant to be psuedo-realistic, and they even sold it as such. DA2s combat can be gratifying for the first 10 minutes of playing, but then quickly devolves into a untactical mess. Bioware should be embarassed, and I don't say that as a "troll." I say that as a developer who has earned so much respect only to start pandering to gamings lowest commen denominator.

LOL Can you be any more pretentious?  I think Bay movies are horrible.  I think the combat in DA2 is worlds better than the boring slogs of DAO.  The combat is EXACTLY as tactical as DAO.  It's the same mechanics but with more freedom.  You can play it the same way.

And gaming's lowest common denominator?  Please.  Get over yourself.  Do you know how ridiculous you sound? 

[Skemte]

Only so so problem I have with is the bodies gibbing.. Outside of that.. I think the combat is awesome looking... I want this kind of combat after all this show this kind of combat in the teasers such as Sacred Ashes.. To me that was one of the biggest problems with DAO.. The mages were extremely powerful.. The warriors and rogues were fodder only useful for a ability or two.. While looking completely unimpressive..
  
   Seriously Bioware just needs to put up like 2 to 3 stickies..  All about complaints broken into each thing such as combat, dialogue story, and a third topic.

Modifié par Skemte, 15 mars 2011 - 03:08 .

[Chancer15]

OK lets Face it DAO combat was fun while it lasted now it is boring. But chance its Tacticl combat shut up you Baby so is DA2 stop your ****ingg your still going to play it