402 réponses à ce sujet

[lastpawn]

There's a line between badass and ridiculous. I think everyone gets this. Opinions may differ on where that line is. In my opinion, DA2 crosses it with all the ninja-cool-Dragon-Ball-Z spaz.

I wouldn't say it's "repulsive," though. It's just overdone to the point where I can't take it seriously and that's a shame. I'm talking about swinging JRPG-style massive plastic swords, choreographed-dance spellcasting, and utterly absurd spinning kicking bombs at enemies. This personally takes me out of immersion of what is otherwise a dark and strong, if unfocused, world.

I don't want to go back to DA:O style combat. I like to think a compromise is possible, where combat remains "action-y" yet retains some gravitas and feels more "serious."

[upsettingshorts]

Too Slow/Simple <------DAO-------| Fabled Middle Ground |-------DA2-------> Too Fast/Silly

I'd love the middle ground, but personally I prefer a little too fast/silly to a little too slow/simple.  But that's just me.  It feels like it overshot a little, though.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 mars 2011 - 12:57 .

[segatakai]

My favourite spell Walking bomb isnt as special anymore.. Everything explodes!

[lastpawn]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Too Slow/Simple <------DAO-------| Fabled Middle Ground |-------DA2-------> Too Fast/Silly

I'd love the middle ground, but personally I prefer a little too fast/silly to a little too slow/simple.  But that's just me.  It feels like it overshot a little, though.

I like and support your semi-graphical representation. Well done.

I'm on the slow/simple side, but as you say, that's just me. Will continue hoping for the Fabled Middle Ground.

Modifié par lastpawn, 15 mars 2011 - 01:08 .

[Akka le Vil]

Alzari wrote...

hmmm...between the magic system is good, but dumbed down since DAO, the fighting yes is better in some regards, its faster and more realistic in its speed delivery.

/facepalm
Right. Theproblem is how over-the-top, exagerated to the point of ridiculousness, the fighting is, but it's "more realistic"...
The grasp of some people on reality is frightneningly low sometimes...

Reacher Gilt wrote...

The problem with the combat in DA2 is that it's so ****ing insulting. I'm following the characters, and i'm interested in what's happening, and they just keep throwing tons and tons of crap on the screen. Didn't Laidlaw say "Less is more."?

The player doesn't need to kill dozens and dozens of enemies in order to feel like a badass, and the characters don't need to jump twelve feet in the air, or do a dozen backflips, or shoot fireballs from between their legs in order to look awesome. Exaggerating the art and violence as part of the framed narrative structure was a good idea, but the implementation was rushed and sloppy.

Exactly.

Apechild wrote...

Personally I hate the combat animations.
I love the grittier, more realistic animations of DA:O than the
anime-want-to-be animations of DA2. The horribly jerky movements, the
warriors sliding across the ground, rogues doing silly acrobatics, mages
jerkily waving their staves around... some of the magic animations I do
like when you cast spells, the small hand gestures and so on are
great, I really do like them, but the auto-attack? Bleugh.

We're on agreement here too.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 15 mars 2011 - 01:13 .

[mesmerizedish]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Too Slow/Simple <------DAO-------| Fabled Middle Ground |-------DA2-------> Too Fast/Silly

I'd love the middle ground, but personally I prefer a little too fast/silly to a little too slow/simple.  But that's just me.  It feels like it overshot a little, though.

I don't think DAII went as far over-the-top as people think. The exploding bodies get on my nerves after a while, but I love the actual animations themselves.

[Annarl]

I liked the combat, it may have been a little too fast but I'll take that over too slow. I didn't love the exploding bodies or blood bags. And I love gross games like Dead Space and Dead Space 2.

[upsettingshorts]

Neither do I, I just think they overcompensated for the simplistic and boring animations in DAO. People can say they were "gritty" or "realistic" all they want, but I didn't see it.

DAO was slow and simple. DA2 is fast and silly. Somewhere between them would be ideal for me. But it really is just an aesthetic thing - which I'll admit is a legitimate issue as I pretty much abandoned the JRPG genre based solely upon aesthetics.

In terms of combat mechanics I think the changes made in DA2 are entirely positive, especially melee AOE/FF (on Nightmare), fortitude (weaker characters sent flying even by basic mook attacks), force behind attacks (related to previous), and cross class combos.  All of those things add complexity to the game, despite the entire release being painted with the dumbed-down brush when it simply doesn't apply to every single change.  But that coulda been done separate from the change in aesthetics so it's not really the same topic. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 mars 2011 - 01:28 .

[Atardecer]

Gryphon7 wrote...

Atardecer wrote...

Sorry, but thats a stretch. The combat seems a "creative" choice by Bioware to pull in a wider audience with shorter attention spans, nothing more. They have already effectively admitted that this game was supposed to reach to a more general audience, hence the scaling in of RPG elements and dumbing down.

It might be a bit of a stretch, but it still makes sense within the framework of the game/story.

I dont think so at all. I never got the feeling that my every action was somehow an element of a story being recounted by Varric. In any case, why didnt Varric recount the olde fable about screwing up this game. Never saw that in his stories. Strange. Ah, thats DA3: Varric regales us all with a story of how Bioware massacred the RPG and fought the hordes of disappointed gamers and ugly trolls, only to be saved the the omnipotent EA who threw wads of cash at the hapless Bioware to ward off the "waves of enemies. In DA3 you get to assume the role of David Gaider (and no you cant customise). 

Now I'd pay $60 for that.

Modifié par Atardecer, 15 mars 2011 - 01:28 .

[Makeshift Riot]

Because a mage should just stand there and do the same thing over and over? That's realistic to you?

[lastpawn]

Makeshift Riot wrote...
Because a mage should just stand there and do the same thing over and over? That's realistic to you?

Nothing personal, but this is exactly the type of response I don't understand at all. It seems you think there are only two options in this world:

A) A mage flipping around the staff like a circus acrobat while casting spells, or
A mage monotonously waving one hand to cast spells.

Some of us don't like art design which turns mages into what we see as acrobats as clowns. Yes, that means we're against option A. However, that doesn't mean we necessary like the option B. Why? Because those aren't the only options.

[billy the squid]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Alzari wrote...

hmmm...between the magic system is good, but dumbed down since DAO, the fighting yes is better in some regards, its faster and more realistic in its speed delivery.

/facepalm
Right. Theproblem is how over-the-top, exagerated to the point of ridiculousness, the fighting is, but it's "more realistic"...
The grasp of some people on reality is frightneningly low sometimes...

Reacher Gilt wrote...

The problem with the combat in DA2 is that it's so ****ing insulting. I'm following the characters, and i'm interested in what's happening, and they just keep throwing tons and tons of crap on the screen. Didn't Laidlaw say "Less is more."?

The player doesn't need to kill dozens and dozens of enemies in order to feel like a badass, and the characters don't need to jump twelve feet in the air, or do a dozen backflips, or shoot fireballs from between their legs in order to look awesome. Exaggerating the art and violence as part of the framed narrative structure was a good idea, but the implementation was rushed and sloppy.

Exactly.

Apechild wrote...

Personally I hate the combat animations.
I love the grittier, more realistic animations of DA:O than the
anime-want-to-be animations of DA2. The horribly jerky movements, the
warriors sliding across the ground, rogues doing silly acrobatics, mages
jerkily waving their staves around... some of the magic animations I do
like when you cast spells, the small hand gestures and so on are
great, I really do like them, but the auto-attack? Bleugh.

We're on agreement here too.

I very much agree, a middle ground must be found. Assassin's Creed found a way to deliver action orientated combat without it descending to the awful level, I don't advocate simply copying the Creed, but the point is that it can be done well so why is it so lacking in DA2?
 
DAO did have its problems on the xbox, but really it need some work on making it more fluid, Not by adhearing to the concept of "when you push a button something awsome has to happen" which was thrown around in interviews and seems to be part of the overall problem of not just combat, but much of the game.

Oversimplification

[Akka le Vil]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Neither do I, I just think they overcompensated for the simplistic and boring animations in DAO. People can say they were "gritty" or "realistic" all they want, but I didn't see it.

I agree that mage staff and rogue backstab animations were boring (just the same all the time) and that the two-handed ones were too slow, but for the rest they were quite good. The "wow" factor was much better done with the finishers (that felt quite satisfying usually) than with the jumping around in DA2.

In terms of combat mechanics I think the changes made in DA2 are entirely positive, especially melee AOE/FF (on Nightmare), fortitude (weaker characters sent flying even by basic mook attacks), force behind attacks (related to previous), and cross class combos.  All of those things add complexity to the game, despite the entire release being painted with the dumbed-down brush when it simply doesn't apply to every single change.  But that coulda been done separate from the change in aesthetics so it's not really the same topic.

Well, I actually agree on many things with you. I like the fortitude test idea, I like the new talent trees, I like the cross-class combo. I agree they COULD have added quite a bit of complexity, but I disagree that they actually did : the actual combats design is just too much action-oriented (with the infamous waves, spawning and mass-AoE over masses of weak foes, and the nearly removal of everything related to positioning) to really make use of these tricks.
The "dumbed down" feeling is the overall result, and the combination of aesthetics and action-oriented design is a very large part of it.

[belwin]

yes,
and the 8 foot jump to finish off ogres and dragons in DA:O wasn't immersion breaking.

i demand we boycott these games on the grounds that they are too unrealistic.

[Apechild]

It happened rarely, thats the key. When it happened you sat up and watched and took note of it. It didn't happen on every ogre, but when it did happen it grabbed your attention because it was out of the ordinary & you were cheering the character on (yes the dragon ones were over the top, but they were great because of the rarity).

With everything 'awesome' that keeps happening repeatedly in DA2 it gets dull quickly and nothing seems special anymore, it just looks like an anime-wannabe mess, to my eyes.

[Gryphon7]

Atardecer wrote...

I dont think so at all. I never got the feeling that my every action was somehow an element of a story being recounted by Varric. In any case, why didnt Varric recount the olde fable about screwing up this game. Never saw that in his stories. Strange. Ah, thats DA3: Varric regales us all with a story of how Bioware massacred the RPG and fought the hordes of disappointed gamers and ugly trolls, only to be saved the the omnipotent EA who threw wads of cash at the hapless Bioware to ward off the "waves of enemies. In DA3 you get to assume the role of David Gaider (and no you cant customise). 

Now I'd pay $60 for that.

Righty. You seem to be taking my point and running to the extreme end of the spectrum with it.

My point is that the over-the-top combat can be explained, at least within the confines of the story/game, as embellishment in Varric's telling for a more "Heroic" feel. It doesn't really matter if you got the "feeling" that he's telling the story; The narrative is obviously set up so that we're conscious of that being a fact.

I'm very much aware that the combat isn't designed the way it is BECAUSE of that observation. I merely pointed out a possible, lore friendly reason for the shift in mechanics/appearances. I also stated issues I had with the combat which mirrored those of many who'd been posting.

In short: Relax.

[Naitaka]

I'm going to boycott Bioware if the mages don't break dance when casting spell in DA3.

Modifié par Naitaka, 15 mars 2011 - 02:54 .

[belwin]

Apechild wrote...

It happened rarely, thats the key. When it happened you sat up and watched and took note of it. It didn't happen on every ogre, but when it did happen it grabbed your attention because it was out of the ordinary & you were cheering the character on (yes the dragon ones were over the top, but they were great because of the rarity).

With everything 'awesome' that keeps happening repeatedly in DA2 it gets dull quickly and nothing seems special anymore, it just looks like an anime-wannabe mess, to my eyes.

ehh, personally it doesn't bother me that much.
the flashy combat is pretty cool imo.

...this just gets discussed to death on like 3 different threads every week, and its the same thing over and over.

[Demonicom]

It occurs to me that this whole argument could be ruled null and void had the auto-attack feature been enabled.
I dislike spamming the X button (I play on PS3) just as much as the next guy, but it IS refreshing to see a different take on the combat system, especially since I've played DA:O through so many characters.

[belwin]

Demonicom wrote...

I dislike spamming the X button (I play on PS3)

i played the demo twice,
and the full game,
and never had to spam the auto attack button.
my characters just auto attacked like in DA:O.

[The Brigand]

Makeshift Riot wrote...

Because a mage should just stand there and do the same thing over and over? That's realistic to you?

If you're right handed, how often do you attempt to write or draw with your left hand? With your feet? Nose? Ears? I'd imagine casting spells would be similar: You find the method that works best for you, and you stick to that method because using other methods would produce inferior results.

So while the old "staff poking" animations from Origins might be boring to some, I also think they're remarkably realistic, at least as far as fantasy elements like magic are concerned.

[Demonicom]

belwin wrote...

Demonicom wrote...

I dislike spamming the X button (I play on PS3)

i played the demo twice,
and the full game,
and never had to spam the auto attack button.
my characters just auto attacked like in DA:O.

Really?  Cuz my character just stands there unless I am hitting the X button.  Maybe I overlooked the feature to turn on auto-attack? 

[Arcadionn]

RhythmlessNinja wrote...

The fighting is fine, the only
problem I have is the over dramatic way the bodies explode for no damn
reason, it's just so unrealistic that it just looks retarded and not
"cool" at all. And I'll have to disagree about not needing tactics at
all, higher difficulty is almost damn near impossible if you just let
everyone do as they please further into the game.

I agree... bodies explode a bit too much from regular crosbow or dagger
hits... hell even Hemmorhage (spelling is obviously wrong) makes people
explode at times.

The combat is faster paced, but I view it as being more satisfying than DAO

In Origins... combat could be dumbed down to soloing everything with Arcane Warrior/Blood mage or
using the same 2-3 skills for the entire course of the game because they were 1-shot kills if properly equipped/spec'd.  I'm sorry but I disagree with you TC on most counts apart from the body explosions and
the fact there should have been more than 1 <enter combat from distance with melee> animations since that can get annoying to see for 25+ hours (dash in and start slicing).

The enemy spawning isn't as bad as you portray it. I remember times in DA2 when it made no sense (actual clipping issues with mobs rapelling down air instead of buildings...), it just seems all enemies are in a constant state of ambush, which shouldn't happen when you're surprising them in the story... I agree that the random spawning makes tactics less predictable but I still believe that tactics are mandatory in nightmare mode.

That's my perspective on it.

Modifié par Arcadionn, 15 mars 2011 - 03:56 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Neither do I, I just think they overcompensated for the simplistic and boring animations in DAO. People can say they were "gritty" or "realistic" all they want, but I didn't see it.

DAO was slow and simple. DA2 is fast and silly. Somewhere between them would be ideal for me. But it really is just an aesthetic thing - which I'll admit is a legitimate issue as I pretty much abandoned the JRPG genre based solely upon aesthetics.

Oddly enough, it appears that the basic "auto" attack in melee for each type (S&S, 2H, DW) is pretty much the same thing over and over and over in DA2 -- only the special attacks get additional animations.  IIRC, each type in DA:O had a handful of different, randomly used animations for the basic attack.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Apechild wrote...

Personally I hate the combat animations. I love the grittier, more realistic animations of DA:O than the anime-want-to-be animations of DA2. The horribly jerky movements, the warriors sliding across the ground, rogues doing silly acrobatics, mages jerkily waving their staves around... some of the magic animations I do like when you cast spells, the small hand gestures and so on are great, I really do like them, but the auto-attack? Bleugh.

My dislike of that sort of thing is not restricted to DA2, I dislike it in general - if I had watched the Sacred Ashes trailer before I purchased DA:O I would not have brought it.

The two things in Sacred Ashes that bug me:
1) Leliana's rolling strike, dagger throw, jump sequence.
2) Protagonist weapons ignoring mook armor.