28 réponses à ce sujet

[IN1]

Hi all,

First of all, a disclaimer: I'm not a casual player, I'm the guy that heavily contributed to 90% of mechanics-related articles in DAO/DAA wiki (http://dragonage.wik...om/wiki/User:IN; http://dragonage.wik...icient_Approach; http://www.youtube.c...ot?feature=mhum). Please understand I'm not stating this fact to show off, only to prevent possible mentoring/lecturing. Intelligent discussions are welcome, of course.

My general impressions:
* Nightmare difficulty is, luckily, significantly more challenging than the corresponding difficulty in DAO (not to mention DAA).
* However, this is in part due to the fact party tactics cannot be really turned off in DA2. You have to literally babysit your party members if you want to be remotely successful on Nightmare.
* Companions are surprisingly useless, with the exception of both mages and Aveline (and even those leave a lot to be desired). To be fair, Isabela has a lot of potential thanks to her auto-crit AoE talent. It's just takes a lot of time to unlock the aforementioned potential.
* Archery talents are worthless even on the protagonist, and don't get me started on Varric and Sebastian  Auto-attack archer builds are nearly as viable as they were in DAO/DAA, though.
* Rogue class has two protagonist-only uber-specializations (Assassin and Shadow), and a whole bunch of crappy talent trees (though, as mentioned, Isabela's Swashbuckler is not hopeless). Mages and warriors are far better balanced.

The ideal party thing. A word of warning: it's a subjective ideal we are talking about, yes? Okay, so here's my take:
1. Protagonist: two-handed warrior, Reaver spec. Key talents: Cleave+Claymore, Might+Muscle, Blood Frenzy, Sacrificial Frenzy, Whirlwind+Tornado+Cyclone, Elemental Aegis (upgrades not necessary). Stats: 50/50 Str/Cun + getting Dex to 20 in Act I to be able to wear some of CriticalRange-enhancing rogue armor (Stalker's Boar Hides, Bloody Butcher Gloves, Ser Isaac's Helm, Lowtown Stompers) is a really good idea. Yes, Cunning, not Constitution. Role: he is the guy who kills things.
2. Aveline. Key talents: Bodyguard+Elite Bodyguard, Battle Synergy+Hero's Synergy, Serve And Protect (approval talent, make her a friend). Stats: 100% Con. Role: prevents the Reaver Hawke (who will be typically at 10% hp) from being killed by stray arrows/attacks by blocking 85% damage done to him.
3-4. Merrill & Anders. Key talents: Cone of Cold+Deep Freeze, Elemental Mastery, Elemental Weapons, Heroic Aura+upgrade, Mind Blast+upgrade. Stats: 100% Mag. Role: they make the opponents brittle, then run for their lives. That's about it. Party buffs are nice, but hardly crucial.

Typical engagement flowchart vs multiple opponents:
Make sure protagonist has 100% cold resistance (easy to achieve with rune-enhanced Boots of Frozen Wastes + Elemental Aegis). Put Aveline in the rear (make sure she has Elite Bodyguard active on the protagonist), she is protagonist's hp pool, not much else. Buff the protagonist with Claymore, engage enemies, lose a lot of life, activate Sacrificial Frenzy. Both mages should cast Cone of Cold in the meanwhile (the protagonist will resist it anyway). The typical outcome is ~80-90% of the crowd will become brittle. Immediately fall back with the mages, unless you are suicidal. Position yourself properly (usually you are already surrounded), Whirlwind > battle won, congrats. Finish off the remaining opponents (if any) leisurely. At level 13, with decent weapon and CriticalRange property about 100, Whirlwind will do 7-8k damage on brittle opponents.

An alternative party, in certain ways superior to this, consists of Fenris (make sure he's a rival for a +10 CriticalRange) + protagonist mage + Merrill + Anders. The same principles apply. Fenris' damage output will be somewhat lower (he will still one-hit practically everyone with Whirlwind), but 3 Cones of Cold will make 100% of opponents brittle in most battles, which is safer and more convenient.

As stated, intelligent competent discussions encouraged.

Modifié par IN1, 12 mars 2011 - 09:15 .

[nightfall2099]

Ideal situation:

Step 1: Uninstall DA2

Step 2: Return it and demand a refund from your gamestore/bioware

Step 3: Play DA1 again, or wait for Mass Effect 3.

This one is a total right-off, at least until the modding community fixes the mess the developers have created.

[IN1]

Eh, I respectfully disagree. DAO was great and atmospheric, but not much of a challenge. This game is actually challenging more often than not, and the plot, while inferior to DAO's, has its moments. I would really like to see a mod to disable party tactics, though -- not much of a modder myself, sadly

[naughty99]

I completely agree with the significantly improved gameplay balance compared to DAO, but I found it to be due in large part from the longer cooldowns for healing potions and spells.

Can you elaborate on why you say that you cannot fully disable party tactics?

I have played about 25% of the game so far, partly in Nightmare and partly in Hard mode. I have played every battle with all tactics turned off, usually the party is in hold mode and I am pausing and micromanaging every single character action.

I did not find any cases where party members reverted to AI. If I have not issued any new command, they will start ranged attacks, but that is about it.

Modifié par naughty99, 11 mars 2011 - 09:44 .

[Cyocide]

Yeah the sad thing is that I had to basically turn the AI off as well. At least uncheck a few tactics to preserve their CDs etc. I have everyone hold also, but sometimes Varric would still use a bursting shot or something and I just cannot handle that friendly fire splash damage when things are already this tight.

Modifié par Cyocide, 11 mars 2011 - 09:49 .

[IN1]

Correct me if I'm wrong. That's what I do: (a) uncheck all tactics boxes; ( set behavior to Default; © save this tactics set as Custom; (d) go into 'Hold' mode. Unfortunately, I still have to babysit the party: Aveline tries to Rally like crazy all the time (yes, with tactics disabled!), mages routinely focus fire on enemies I don't want them to and draw unnecessary aggro. Maybe this is a Rally/Aveline-specific glitch, no idea, but she does it quite frequently (wouldn't be much of a problem, but I don't want Rally to be on cooldown when I really want it).

[naughty99]

It sounds like it could be a bug. Are you playing on PC? I haven't gotten the Rally talent for Avelline yet, I'll let you know if I notice that as well.

The mages and archers do all seem to perform ranged attacks if I don't give them a new command in time.

I guess the "babysitting" method (constantly pausing and micromanaging) is how I played DAO as well, so I didn't notice the difference as much.

Also, great recommendations on the ideal party composition. I look forward to trying a 2H warrior playthrough.

I'm playing as a rogue, usually with Avelline, Merril and Bethany.

Modifié par naughty99, 11 mars 2011 - 10:16 .

[IN1]

>I have everyone hold also, but sometimes Varric would still use a bursting shot or something and I >just cannot handle that friendly fire splash damage when things are already this tight.

So that's not only Aveline, I guess. And yes, I'm playing on PC.

>I guess the "babysitting" method is how I played DAO as well, so I didn't notice the difference as >much.

The difference, in fact, is huge. It goes without saying the only efficient control method applicable on Nightmare difficulty is intensive microing, but there is a huge difference between that and having to monitor your party like a hawk (a Hawke?) to prevent them from doing stupid things. Also, DA2 is much faster than DAO, making pause>micro>unpause method considerably less convenient.

[Sabresandiego]

DA2 is so much better than origins, from a gameplay perspective, that it is astounding. I give DA 2 a 9/10 at least. As for an ideal party for a 2 handed warrior, you can check out my guide.

[Lcypher2009]

>The difference, in fact, is huge. It goes without saying the only efficient control method applicable on Nightmare difficulty is intensive microing, but there is a huge difference between that and having to monitor your party like a hawk (a Hawke?) to prevent them from doing stupid things. Also, DA2 is much faster than DAO, making pause>micro>unpause method considerably less convenient.

So true.

[IN1]

Sabresandiego wrote...

DA2 is so much better than origins, from a gameplay perspective, that it is astounding. I give DA 2 a 9/10 at least. As for an ideal party for a 2 handed warrior, you can check out my guide.

I think your approach is, by and large, similar to mine, except you: (a) don't use Aveline; ( don't go Sacrificial Frenzy (justified: way too risky without full 85% damage transfer to Aveline); © prefer Con over Cun (also a corollary of prefering ranged support characters, I think); (d) prefer Scythe to Whirlwind (justified: you go Con, not Cun); (e) try to build CCCs both ways (stagger enemies for Varric, etc.)

Update: you also prefer Dessicate over Deep Freeze+Elemenal Mastery. Again, another viable option: as your build does not rely on one immensely powerful AoE alpha nuke to win battles, mass-brittling enemies with no damage penalty is less of a necessity (not to mention going Dessicate for brittle saves 4 talent points in comparison to Deep Freeze + Elemental Mastery route).

Overall, great job, good guide. "À votre famille et à vos vaches, je dis bravo!" © Hans Landa, Inglourious Basterds

Modifié par IN1, 11 mars 2011 - 11:00 .

[naughty99]

you can check out my guide.

Holy crap how did you put together such a detailed guide so quickly?

lots of great info, thanks for sharing this.

[Luke Barrett]

IN1, put your party tactics on Passive for the default behavior and then uncheck all the boxes. That will make them stand around watching.

[IN1]

Luke Barrett wrote...

IN1, put your party tactics on Passive for the default behavior and then uncheck all the boxes. That will make them stand around watching.

Thanks, Luke. Passive instead of Default behaviour, then. It was kind of hard to guess based on behavior tooltip description

[keginkc]

I've had a problem running them on passive, that being that they'll attack for one round and then stop. i.e. I'll ctrl-a, tell the party to attack a certain target, tell them to attack something, and they do. Once. And only once. I may have had the party on follow instead of hold, I'll have to try that at home later (there seem to be other combat oddities if your party is on follow - Origins was the same way). In the end I put all my mages on ranged instead of passive just so they'd continue with their staff attacks.

[IN1]

keginkc wrote...

I've had a problem running them on passive, that being that they'll attack for one round and then stop. i.e. I'll ctrl-a, tell the party to attack a certain target, tell them to attack something, and they do. Once. And only once. I may have had the party on follow instead of hold, I'll have to try that at home later (there seem to be other combat oddities if your party is on follow - Origins was the same way). In the end I put all my mages on ranged instead of passive just so they'd continue with their staff attacks.

Ah, yes. That also happens while controlling the protagonist. That's why I think that DAO/DAA, for all its numerous flaws, was much more convenient in this respect.

[Scoutyo]

IN1 wrote...

1. Protagonist: two-handed warrior, Reaver spec. Key talents: Cleave+Claymore, Might+Muscle, Blood Frenzy, Sacrificial Frenzy, Whirlwind+Tornado+Cyclone, Elemental Aegis (upgrades not necessary). Stats: 50/50 Str/Cun. Yes, Cunning, not Constitution. Role: he is the guy who kills things.

Hi IN1.  How do minimum Con. requirements for armor impact this build? Are you advocating foregoing better armor entirely (and the runeslots, attack bonuses, etc. that come with better armor) in favor of cunning?  Obviously, if your build focuses on Hawke hovering around death's door, armor will have a more marginalized role, I'm just curious as to your thoughts.      

Also, on a personal note, thank you for your contributions to the wiki.  As a long-time user and infrequent contributor, I very much appreciate the hard work and time that major contributors like you put in, but I rarely get the chance to say so.  Many thanks.

Modifié par Scoutyo, 12 mars 2011 - 03:39 .

[IN1]

Scoutyo wrote...

IN1 wrote...

1. Protagonist: two-handed warrior, Reaver spec. Key talents: Cleave+Claymore, Might+Muscle, Blood Frenzy, Sacrificial Frenzy, Whirlwind+Tornado+Cyclone, Elemental Aegis (upgrades not necessary). Stats: 50/50 Str/Cun. Yes, Cunning, not Constitution. Role: he is the guy who kills things.

Hi IN1.  How do minimum Con. requirements for armor impact this build? Are you advocating foregoing better armor entirely (and the runeslots, attack bonuses, etc. that come with better armor) in favor of cunning?  Obviously, if your build focuses on Hawke hovering around death's door, armor will have a more marginalized role, I'm just curious as to your thoughts.      

Also, on a personal note, thank you for your contributions to the wiki.  As a long-time user and infrequent contributor, I very much appreciate the hard work and time that major contributors like you put in, but I rarely get the chance to say so.  Many thanks.

Thanks for your kind words

As to Con vs Cun: in fact, I advocate raising Dex to 21 to equip Last Descent Helmet/Ser Isaac's Helm (+5 CriticalRange both), Bloody Butcher's Gloves (+3 CriticalRange), Last Descent Armor (+13 CriticalRange), and Last Descent Boots (+5 CriticalRange) in Act I. It's a good trade-off: otherwise, you'd need to invest 26 points into Cun to get the same effect. Beyond this point, I'm not sure. The same principle applies: if the armor requires, say, 31 Dex, but gives +50 CriticalRange, investing 10 pts into Dex to equip it is a wise decision; if it requires 25 Dex, but gives +16 CiticalRange, better invest 3 pts into Cun than 4 into Dex to achieve the same effect.

PS: It was an important point, so I've updated the OP accordingly. 

Modifié par IN1, 12 mars 2011 - 05:14 .

[Graunt]

As stated, intelligent competent discussions encouraged.

I'm just wondering how much of the game you've actually played, or if you've even tried your suggested build yet.  For one thing, the range on Battle Synergy is awful.  It says "10m" but that's a typo, when it's literally 10 feet.  A two-handed Warrior is all over the screen and typically out of range unless every time you move, you have Aveline follow...which isn't always possible if you're using Scythe.  Your main character will be out of range more than in range, so the aura won't be doing much most of the time, so good luck staying at 10% health while Aveline stops "85%" of the incoming damage -- typically it would be 60%.  This also sounds like a strategy that doesn't even work until mid to late game.

It does sound like an interesting idea at least, especially when many people are not even using Aveline in the first place, and are "tanking" with a Two-Handed DPS build on Nightmare.  Right now I'm finding having two Mages with Primal and your PC with Force to be laughably easy, especially bosses.

Modifié par Graunt, 12 mars 2011 - 10:38 .

[StingingVelvet]

I just want to say I disagree about assassin and shadow being the only good rogue trees. I am playing with a duelist and it's very powerful if you're focusing on DPS. For one thing the backstab ability in duelist is much better than the standard backstab, it's basically a one-hit-kill. Secondly throwing the gauntlet at a boss can be very, very helpful especially with a bastard assassin. Lastly the defense bonuses are awesome and keeps a rogue alive much longer if you want them in the thick of battle.

I am using a rogue with duelist talents along with the bomb that stuns enemies, plus the 100% crit against stunned enemies, plus maxed out rush and she just owns everything.

[soteria]

Ditching Aveline and taking two mages does seem to be the way to go for a 2h warrior. Aveline was just getting in my way and dealing low damage; something I realized after watching Sabressandiego's "Danzig" video.

As for the OP, I strongly disagree with archer rogues being bad. They have a lot of great synergy if you build them right.

[IN1]

Graunt wrote...

As stated, intelligent competent discussions encouraged.

I'm just wondering how much of the game you've actually played, or if you've even tried your suggested build yet.  For one thing, the range on Battle Synergy is awful.  It says "10m" but that's a typo, when it's literally 10 feet.  A two-handed Warrior is all over the screen and typically out of range unless every time you move, you have Aveline follow...which isn't always possible if you're using Scythe.  Your main character will be out of range more than in range, so the aura won't be doing much most of the time, so good luck staying at 10% health while Aveline stops "85%" of the incoming damage -- typically it would be 60%.  This also sounds like a strategy that doesn't even work until mid to late game.

It does sound like an interesting idea at least, especially when many people are not even using Aveline in the first place, and are "tanking" with a Two-Handed DPS build on Nightmare.  Right now I'm finding having two Mages with Primal and your PC with Force to be laughably easy, especially bosses.

1. I'm starting Act III right now, so yes, I've tried it... a little bit  
2. It may 'sound' to you all you like. As a matter of fact, however, the strategy can only work mid to late game, since you have to be at least level 13 to use Whirlwind at its full potential.
3. I don't use Scythe at all, I use Whirlwind. Hmmm... Have you read the OP, honestly?
4. Sorry to shock you, 60% damage transfer is fine by me However, as long as Battle Synergy icon appears in Hawke's buff queue, I'd rather trust the in-game indicator, and not your guesswork about 10m being a typo. Battle Synergy is not the main point of the setup, anyway, so I don't understand why do you focus fire on it so much.
5. Last time I checked, frozen/brittle enemies had very poor damage output, to put it mildly  The main challenge with this party setup is to know the exact timing to cast both Cones of Cold. You should take enough damage for Reaver damage multipliers to be significant, but as much as to be killed by some stray arrow.

Always happy to reply to constructive critique (just try to read the OP before trying your hand at it next time, pretty please). This party setup is hard to pull off, as it requires an insane amount of microing and great party coordination. However, it is more than viable. Scoring consistent five digit AoE crits mid game makes it worth the trouble. 

Modifié par IN1, 12 mars 2011 - 09:17 .

[IN1]

>Ditching Aveline and taking two mages does seem to be the way to go for a 2h warrior. Aveline >was just getting in my way and dealing low damage; something I realized after watching >Sabressandiego's "Danzig" video.

Disagree with ditching Aveline, agree with two mages. As stated, 3 mages > 2 mages + Aveline, but protagonist Reaver > Fenris, so that's still a tie.

>As for the OP, I strongly disagree with archer rogues being bad. They have a lot of great synergy >if you build them right.

Protagonist Assassin/Shadow archer rogue can be very good. Varric and Sebastian are... not exactly uber-l33t.

[IN1]

>I just want to say I disagree about assassin and shadow being the only good rogue trees. I am >playing with a duelist and it's very powerful if you're focusing on DPS. For one thing the backstab >ability in duelist is much better than the standard backstab, it's basically a one-hit-kill. Secondly >throwing the gauntlet at a boss can be very, very helpful especially with a bastard assassin. >Lastly the defense bonuses are awesome and keeps a rogue alive much longer if you want them >in the thick of battle.
>I am using a rogue with duelist talents along with the bomb that stuns enemies, plus the 100% >crit against stunned enemies, plus maxed out rush and she just owns everything.

To have high damage output, any Rogue has to stack CriticalRange attribute (+ crit dmg talents and gear). In my opinion, Duelist spec is counter-productive to this goal, as you essentially sacrifice either Assassin or Shadow to go Duelist.

I assume you are playing on Nightmare. What is your party setup?

[tsukitwo]

I started playing on nightmare, and I have the issue of my companions forgetting commands that I send them. It's really annoying when I tell the mage to cast fireball, switch to another character and unpause ... only to find the mage sitting there doing nothing.