61 réponses à ce sujet

[Dapper Pomegranate]

MR445 wrote...
I could buy some of the weaker story elements, but what Anders did made no sense whatsoever, from any angle. Bombing the Chantry and killing possibly the only person in power who is somewhat sympathetic to the plight of mages... Seriously? What did that accomplish? Every cutscene she was in showed that she was a just individual and truly cared for all the people of Kirkwall.

The point is that the Chantry is the driving force behind the templars, and thus a symbol of the oppression of mages. He should have blown up the Gallows and Meredith, but that would have been impossible so he did the next best thing, in his mind.

[GRX Dragon]

Gerudan wrote...

It's supposed to be DARK Fantasy.  

Aye.

Though, my opinion is for what is meant to be a dark-themed fantasy, it is anything but. Even Justice-Anders has a justifiable reason for destroying the entire city. There's nothing at all that is truly "dark" in DA2.

MR445 wrote...

I agree with you, there's no feel to the title of champion by the end of the game. You just kill a bunch of people for no reason. 

I could buy some of the weaker story elements, but what Anders did made no sense whatsoever, from any angle. Bombing the Chantry and killing possibly the only person in power who is somewhat sympathetic to the plight of mages... Seriously? What did that accomplish? Every cutscene she was in showed that she was a just individual and truly cared for all the people of Kirkwall.

But it sets up a story arc for the next game that we will end up buying so all is well.

You do remember that Anders is possessed by Justice, yes? Justice wanted justice, not merely freeing the circle of Magi, which to him, was a bunch of dogs bound by a leash, making them as culpable as the templars. Something like that, or to put it another way... Justice exploded because he felt the Magi were a bunch of cowards that weren't willing to do what was required in order for them to get rid of the chains fallen upon them.

[Emperor Mars]

I think Varric says in game that its not a happy story or something along those lines...pretty much sums up DA2

[Syndria]

I liked it.

Was a change of pace from the "happy cheery sunshine crew" style stories that I see in most games these days. Sometimes, I just want to play a real ass. Make life hell for everyone. Usually can't do that outside FPS games.

Props to Bioware.

[MR445]

GRX Dragon wrote...
You do remember that Anders is possessed by Justice, yes? Justice wanted justice, not merely freeing the circle of Magi, which to him, was a bunch of dogs bound by a leash, making them as culpable as the templars. Something like that, or to put it another way... Justice exploded because he felt the Magi were a bunch of cowards that weren't willing to do what was required in order for them to get rid of the chains fallen upon them.

That's possible, but I think the game makes it pretty clear when Vengeance (apparently he is no longer Justice) has complete control. Anders was Anders when he lied to Hawke to get his aid in gathering materials for explosives and when he tricked Hawke into distracting the Grand Cleric so he could plant his bomb.

From what I saw the only time Vengeance took over during this ordeal was right before the Chantry exploded.

[GRX Dragon]

MR445 wrote...

GRX Dragon wrote...
You do remember that Anders is possessed by Justice, yes? Justice wanted justice, not merely freeing the circle of Magi, which to him, was a bunch of dogs bound by a leash, making them as culpable as the templars. Something like that, or to put it another way... Justice exploded because he felt the Magi were a bunch of cowards that weren't willing to do what was required in order for them to get rid of the chains fallen upon them.

That's possible, but I think the game makes it pretty clear when Vengeance (apparently he is no longer Justice) has complete control. Anders was Anders when he lied to Hawke to get his aid in gathering materials for explosives and when he tricked Hawke into distracting the Grand Cleric so he could plant his bomb.

From what I saw the only time Vengeance took over during this ordeal was right before the Chantry exploded.

Justice or Vengeance... anyhow, interesting dialog, I must've missed that somehow, since in my only playthrough I didn't get asked to gather materials (or maybe I did and I'm just not thinking clearly?).

[Mongerty2]

I liked some of the darker stuff, but a lot of what made me mad is that everything resulted in combat. Very rarely was there the option to be diplomatic, but you pretty much had to choose sides.

I think I see what they were going for, but it sort of fell flat. (still a great game)
Does anyone else think that they were trying to show that in the end, the Qun was correct? ( I mean, In my playthrough, he was never really the antagonist, just the end of a lot of conspiracies. I think that the leader was one of the deeper characters). Kirkwall is a rotting place that really needs to be purged, and we pretty much end up doing that.

[schalafi]

Mongerty2 wrote...

I liked some of the darker stuff, but a lot of what made me mad is that everything resulted in combat. Very rarely was there the option to be diplomatic, but you pretty much had to choose sides.

I think I see what they were going for, but it sort of fell flat. (still a great game)
Does anyone else think that they were trying to show that in the end, the Qun was correct? ( I mean, In my playthrough, he was never really the antagonist, just the end of a lot of conspiracies. I think that the leader was one of the deeper characters). Kirkwall is a rotting place that really needs to be purged, and we pretty much end up doing that.

Yes, I agree with you about the lack of a third option, that of being neutral, or at least  a chance to think about your choices. When you were confronted with a decision it was almost impossible to back out gracefully.

[Bachmors]

The part with the serial killer was one of the best parts of all bioware games I have ever played (back to Baldurs Gate). I was really shocked and infuriated and that's great! I will remember this quest for a long time.
You are also forced to make hard decisions in this game, which is another point for the story-writing.

The story saved the game for me and I actually enjoyed it a bit more than DA:O (despite the repetitive dungeons and caves, which was a HUGE letdown Bioware. Shame on you for that!).

But maybe that's just me, because I like dark, depressing stories ... they feel more real.

Modifié par Bachmors, 13 mars 2011 - 05:04 .

[Maria Caliban]

MR445 wrote...

...but what Anders did made no sense whatsoever, from any angle. Bombing the Chantry and killing possibly the only person in power who is somewhat sympathetic to the plight of mages... Seriously? What did that accomplish? Every cutscene she was in showed that she was a just individual and truly cared for all the people of Kirkwall.

What are you talking about? Anders did exactly the right thing for his goals.

He doesn't care about the Grand Cleric. That she's kind and beloved *helps* him. Anders doesn't want to make live better for the mages in the Circle. He want to start a war.

Don't you remember 9/11?

Bombing a building full of innocent people = Great way to start a war.

[MaglorArcanist]

1 Too forced ending

2 Too inconclusive ending... damm inconclusive

3 too much area's repeated, the 23856565 quest in the same zone i havafter e scrreamed, how difficult add some damned area

4 Too many bad and mindless companions and quest (see merril)

5 Tooo damm bloodmages... all mage in this game are blood mage....

7 A not concluded story with no point... why?

8 Too easy dialog line and and few real choice even in dialogs...

[MaglorArcanist]

sorry doble post

Modifié par MaglorArcanist, 13 mars 2011 - 05:29 .

[PantheraOnca]

to respond to the OP, those points are there for good reason. thedas is not a happy place. there is messed up $%#@ going on everywhere. because the dialogue options you felt were right led to situations you found undesirable is good story telling. its making you examine whether you fall on the deontological or consequentialist side of moral evaluation, that is to say whether acts or consequences are more important to determining how you behave.

[Carmen_Willow]

schalafi wrote...

I play games for enjoyment, not to be dragged into depression, and no, Im not looking for skipping fairies, and fuzzy bunnies in a game, just some balance. When everyone dies, there's no balance, and no sense to the game, imo. Also, there was really no lesson to be taken from the game, to me it was just depressing chaos, with npc's that I had been friends with dying. I take games seriously, even though I know it's just another kind of fiction, but this one really disappointed me. I have a very protective attitude towards my npcs.

In this game, everyone you love (especially if you romance Anders) is dead or gone. You begin the story by fleeing a killer blight that destroys your world and you end with a killer who again destroys your world.  Your surviving sibling (at least in my story) is forced to become a grey warden in order to survive...no future for your family there....so who's left to fight for?  Oh, the people...but which people?  Certainly not my family.  My family's blown apart.  My LI has just committed suicide by "cop" with me being the cop.  So, what do I have at the end....a big empty mansion (much like Oblivion) with no one to share it with.....nope, don't even have that because I've been forced to flee once more.

This game was so depressing that when Alistair, the grey warden, showed up with my brother....I just wanted to scream  "Take me with you! I wanna be a grey warden! Anything has to be better than this, and you're cute!"  I start to tear up because I so wanted to be back with companions I cherished.

[Kabraxal]

I have to agree with the OP... by the end I was fed up with the darkness. There is a level where you can be dark and good, like Origins. This decided to take the worst of the dark fantasy out there and just bombard the player over and over.

And Anders' decision was just stupid. It screamed "look at me look at me! I'm edgy!".

I don't hate this game by any means, but it isn't a great example of truly good dark fantasy.

Modifié par Kabraxal, 13 mars 2011 - 06:19 .

[Carmen_Willow]

Mongerty2 wrote...

.....Does anyone else think that they were trying to show that in the end, the Qun was correct? ( I mean, In my playthrough, he was never really the antagonist, just the end of a lot of conspiracies. I think that the leader was one of the deeper characters). Kirkwall is a rotting place that really needs to be purged, and we pretty much end up doing that.

The Arishok didn't just think that Kirkwall needed to be purged.  He believes that EVERYONE who is not a part of the Qun needs to be purged.  In his world you either submit the the religious state that determines your entire life from birth to death or you die.  In his world people are identified as what they do....not who they are.....and what they do is determined by the state.  There is no personal choice.  There is no personal responsibilty.  There is only submission. Those who do not submit are hunted down.  Resistance is futile.

[hismastersvoice]

I don't have an issue with dark overtones in the storytelling, especially in fantasy, but really, the "your mother was killed, cut into pieces and sewn together to say a few last words" thing was just hysterically bad writing. Was that supposed to be some gore horror scene or an emotionally touching moment? Couldn't tell...

Anders blowing up the Chantry was not really that dark, just plain dumb and pointless.

[elikal71]

I fully agree with the OP!

This is just one example of many, how EVERY decision in this game just ends bad for the hero. I know in Dark Fantasy all can't be roses and daisies. But at least in DA1 you could have a good ending for you and your companions. Here ALL goes to hell. EVERY single thing you try to accomplish ends in failure.

Sorry, but that isn't dark, thats just sick. I want no way of such entertainment ever again.

[Kabraxal]

elikal71 wrote...

I fully agree with the OP!

This is just one example of many, how EVERY decision in this game just ends bad for the hero. I know in Dark Fantasy all can't be roses and daisies. But at least in DA1 you could have a good ending for you and your companions. Here ALL goes to hell. EVERY single thing you try to accomplish ends in failure.

Sorry, but that isn't dark, thats just sick. I want no way of such entertainment ever again.

They probably read too much Sword of Truth beforehand... at least there wasn't as much rape in this game as those books though.  Something redeeming

Modifié par Kabraxal, 13 mars 2011 - 06:43 .

[elikal71]

schalafi wrote...

I play games for enjoyment, not to be dragged into depression, and no, Im not looking for skipping fairies, and fuzzy bunnies in a game, just some balance. When everyone dies, there's no balance, and no sense to the game, imo. Also, there was really no lesson to be taken from the game, to me it was just depressing chaos, with npc's that I had been friends with dying. I take games seriously, even though I know it's just another kind of fiction, but this one really disappointed me. I have a very protective attitude towards my npcs.

I fully agree! It's just not what I play games for.

[elikal71]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

schalafi wrote...

I play games for enjoyment, not to be dragged into depression, and no, Im not looking for skipping fairies, and fuzzy bunnies in a game, just some balance. When everyone dies, there's no balance, and no sense to the game, imo. Also, there was really no lesson to be taken from the game, to me it was just depressing chaos, with npc's that I had been friends with dying. I take games seriously, even though I know it's just another kind of fiction, but this one really disappointed me. I have a very protective attitude towards my npcs.

In this game, everyone you love (especially if you romance Anders) is dead or gone. You begin the story by fleeing a killer blight that destroys your world and you end with a killer who again destroys your world.  Your surviving sibling (at least in my story) is forced to become a grey warden in order to survive...no future for your family there....so who's left to fight for?  Oh, the people...but which people?  Certainly not my family.  My family's blown apart.  My LI has just committed suicide by "cop" with me being the cop.  So, what do I have at the end....a big empty mansion (much like Oblivion) with no one to share it with.....nope, don't even have that because I've been forced to flee once more.

This game was so depressing that when Alistair, the grey warden, showed up with my brother....I just wanted to scream  "Take me with you! I wanna be a grey warden! Anything has to be better than this, and you're cute!"  I start to tear up because I so wanted to be back with companions I cherished.

Heh, yeah I felt very much the same, when Alistair apparead I too felt like "get me outta here". Why Hawke even stayed to long is beyond me. Fight for what? That indeed was the issue for me too.

[Melra]

I enjoyed it, even if it was bit dark. Finally something that raises strong emotions and offers something different, when comparing to all the ''Yay hero comes and saves everybody for no cost, whatsoever'' stories.

Keep up the good work BioWare!

[terjesolgard]

Whenever I play RPG's I always go the "good" road. I completed DA2 today and im sitting here thinking: Did I do the right thing? Did I choose the best solutions? I have no idea. It seems no matter what I had done in most of the main story missions, it would have ended up with a ****storm. I guess the idea behind it is that you can't be diplomatic about everything and everyone but damn...Some of the things in DA2 was too extreme.

[Johannicus]

In my first playthrough I LOVED the story and the combat and that each character was unique. But after playing thru the first act on my second char I realised how much illusion my choices where. for example you can find a map of the deeproads in the elven camp but you still have to help Anders. Anders is the only person who has ress and mass heal wich makes him a must unless you know where the potion recepies and ingridients are and have them. Its like in DA:O where you had to abide Wynnes moral or you where doomed to play the game without a healer. The main story was too choped up to pull me further, some of the sidequests, like the serial killer and helping the guard captain getting her date was more "what will happen next". Main plot quests are forced on you like the gunpowder one. I said NO to the damn dwarf and still I get to do it. In some other quests you also can turn them down but they join/accept it anyway! There was no small talk with your npcs like in orgins, you either had a quest or you didnt. So after a while I realised I had played thru the game with the original cast and completly forgot the others.

But to sum it up, great story wich I enjoyed alot but at this point I cant find any good reason to play thru it more than once because I dont feel like I can play it thru and get a diffrent result. I have realised that this is not the story about the Champion of Kirkwall, this is the story about how a action in said city started a war. You, your friends just happend to be there and the reason its told with you at its center is because in the next game you will return. Varric even says in the end that they all eventually left the champion...

[MB957]

syn010110 wrote...

I tried for so long to avoid deciding between crazy mages and crazy templars, but Anders forced my choice. I sided with the mages out of respect for Bethany and because my Hawke was in love with Merrill...

... and I needed Anders as a healer. THAT pissed me off more than anything else in this game. I wanted to kill Anders dead after he blew up the Chantry, but I couldn't because I would have had no healer!

(My Hawke was a rogue.)

Yeah....I wanted to shiv anders straightaway...lol!  but I felt I needed his heal skills.  I always play on "easy" and would prefer "grandmas easy", but I found this game difficult.  So I loaded up on potions, which had a 30s cooldown??  WTF?  and 40 silver?  WTF?  anyhoooo, once I found Bethany at the endgame part, I dumped anders.  and wished I had a backsave to go kill him, but sadly, I had none!  One more endless dark moment of this game.

I felt forced to take him on...lol!  but now...I know!!  I played as a warrior and will do so again, so next time, I will knife anders!  if I can stomach playing through again.  I want to be fair and give DA2 another chance to redeem itself in my eyes.

so bottom line, I had plenty potions, didn't need anders and his heal, and (even though I liked him in awakenings, the boy has been drinking from the lyrium kool aid a bit much it seems), I'm gonna knife him...lol!

I also sided with the mages, because my first 10 playthroughs of DAO was as a mage!  I love the class!  And because Hawkes sister was a mage, had to back lil sis right??