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[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

erynnar wrote...

Playing DAO again, what little time I spend with my "family" and "friends" before conscription, really helped me bond with them. Rather than say, being thrown into a demo battle with one sibling, then character cutomization, then running with my family only to have my mother be a **** and my brother or sister get made into human jam. It all happens a little too quick.

In Medias Res is hard to get right for a game. It's easier in novels and film, but very difficult in games.

Simply because while you can accept that the Hawke feels strongly about his family, you're not shown the connection they have through the gameplay. That makes it difficult for the player to get attached to the characters too. Because unlike a novel or film, where the assumption is natural, you have to build it up in a game through interaction, otherwise the player is not engaged.

That said, it can work depending on how it's done.

The opening sequence for Beyond Good and Evil, for example.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 03 juillet 2011 - 01:59 .

[Persephone]

mrcrusty wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Playing DAO again, what little time I spend with my "family" and "friends" before conscription, really helped me bond with them. Rather than say, being thrown into a demo battle with one sibling, then character cutomization, then running with my family only to have my mother be a **** and my brother or sister get made into human jam. It all happens a little too quick.

In Medias Res is hard to get right for a game. It's easier in novels and film, but very difficult in games.

Simply because while you can accept that the Hawke feels strongly about his family, you're not shown the connection they have through the gameplay. That makes it difficult for the player to get attached to the characters too. Because unlike a novel or film, where the assumption is natural, you have to build it up in a game through interaction, otherwise the player is not engaged.

That said, it can work depending on how it's done.

The opening sequence for Beyond Good and Evil, for example.

Well said. Completely agree. 15 minutes with the family pre-flight.........(Never mind actual origins for each class) would make a huge difference IMHO.

[Raice]

csfteeeer wrote...

Morroian wrote...

xkg wrote...

Ok, So here I'am with some actual quotes - not some lame made up BS :
All this was posted here in this thread by mister "nice-guy" Raice

This is compilation BEST OF THE BEST "RAICE 2011"
Have fun and a good laugh reading it

All the demonstrates is him being dismissive and being a bit provocative towards the end in response to the personal insults from both you and cfsteer.

You yourself have been just as dismissive towards the arguments of others even discounting your responses to Raice.  

Please

We have been a bit dismissing cause he has been dismissive All Along, a person who doesn't show respect for others opinions doesn't deserve respect.

During my post i dismissed his Terms cause i was stating that they were opinion, which many of them were , a few weren't (Quote From Raice "Fact - DA2 has a compelling story with an intriguing cast"
Opinion, i wasn't Engaged, so obviously is no fact, cause otherwise i wouldn't be able to deny it.)

And now you are defending a guy who willingly attmited that he was trolling ( Quote from Raice "I sort of just started to say stuff to see how mad I could get those two") ?
oh, fantastic *Claps* that's just *Claps* Great, awesome* Claps*

Okay - I'm going to end this here.  The only thing more of a non-issue than ninjas falling from the sky, is your insistance on something to be resolved.

What kind of resolution do you expect to take place here, exactly?

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Persephone wrote...

Well said. Completely agree. 15 minutes with the family pre-flight.........(Never mind actual origins for each class) would make a huge difference IMHO.

It doesn't even have to be a pre-flight. An actual escape from Lothering sequence probably would've been enough, if done well.

You're out with Carver, hunting or something or perhaps coming back/fleeing from Ostagar, as the story warrants. As usual, you're in the lead and he doesn't like it. All of a sudden, a group of Darkspawn come out from the bushes and attack the two of you. Once you kill them you have a small conversation where you realise that Lothering may be in danger.

You rush back to Lothering and find it under attack, buildings burning, people dying, all that good stuff. You find Bethany protecting a group of villagers (and Leandra) from Darkspawn using Magic. Carver jumps in to finish off the rest, nearly getting himself killed in the process. Some interesting dialog with the family and villagers. Some aren't sure what to think about Bethany (and you if Mage) since you're apostates. However, they are isolated pockets of villagers trapped by Darkspawn or w/e who require your help.

Decision time, with Bethany wanting to save them all and Carver wanting to leave them all. Leandra just acts all depressed. Hawke decides and faces the consequences for it.

If Hawke leaves, they are able to escape facing only minor numbers of Darkspawn because the reinforcements had not yet arrived. Carver approves, Bethany doesn't. Cue to start of game.

If Hawke decides to save the villagers, he gains their thanks, exp and gold. However, the delay allowed more Darkspawn to reach Lothering, making their escape many times more difficult. Bethany approves, Carver doesn't. Cue to start of game.

Now, to prevent the latter Hawke from becoming more powerful, just stack on some exp at the end of coward Hawke, or give him access to some really nice low level loot, dead traveller or something. Brave Hawke would find the body already picked to the bone by a group of Darkspawn and miss out on the goodies.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 03 juillet 2011 - 02:18 .

[TEWR]

If this were a No Spoilers forum, I'd give my take on DA2 and DAO in full form. I'm actually tempted to start a thread somewhere

[Persephone]

mrcrusty wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Well said. Completely agree. 15 minutes with the family pre-flight.........(Never mind actual origins for each class) would make a huge difference IMHO.

It doesn't even have to be a pre-flight. An actual escape from Lothering sequence probably would've been enough, if done well.

You're out with Carver, hunting or something or perhaps coming back/fleeing from Ostagar, as the story warrants. As usual, you're in the lead and he doesn't like it. All of a sudden, a group of Darkspawn come out from the bushes and attack the two of you. Once you kill them you have a small conversation where you realise that Lothering may be in danger.

You rush back to Lothering and find it under attack, buildings burning, people dying, all that good stuff. You find Bethany protecting a group of villagers (and Leandra) from Darkspawn using Magic. Carver jumps in to finish off the rest, nearly getting himself killed in the process. Some interesting dialog with the family and villagers. Some aren't sure what to think about Bethany (and you if Mage) since you're apostates. However, they are isolated pockets of villagers trapped by Darkspawn or w/e who require your help.

Decision time, with Bethany wanting to save them all and Carver wanting to leave them all. Leandra just acts all depressed. Hawke decides and faces the consequences for it.

If Hawke leaves, they are able to escape facing only minor numbers of Darkspawn because the reinforcements had not yet arrived. Carver approves, Bethany doesn't. Cue to start of game.

If Hawke decides to save the villagers, he gains their thanks, exp and gold. However, the delay allowed more Darkspawn to reach Lothering, making their escape many times more difficult. Bethany approves, Carver doesn't. Cue to start of game.

You see, this is why Bioware should bloody hire you already!!!!:happy:

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

[Raice]

Persephone wrote...

mrcrusty wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Playing DAO again, what little time I spend with my "family" and "friends" before conscription, really helped me bond with them. Rather than say, being thrown into a demo battle with one sibling, then character cutomization, then running with my family only to have my mother be a **** and my brother or sister get made into human jam. It all happens a little too quick.

In Medias Res is hard to get right for a game. It's easier in novels and film, but very difficult in games.

Simply because while you can accept that the Hawke feels strongly about his family, you're not shown the connection they have through the gameplay. That makes it difficult for the player to get attached to the characters too. Because unlike a novel or film, where the assumption is natural, you have to build it up in a game through interaction, otherwise the player is not engaged.

That said, it can work depending on how it's done.

The opening sequence for Beyond Good and Evil, for example.

Well said. Completely agree. 15 minutes with the family pre-flight.........(Never mind actual origins for each class) would make a huge difference IMHO.

Meh.... I don't really think DAO did much better of a job with the whole family ordeal.  Although, I will say that your brother/sister dying 15 minutes into DA2 is kind of... well... it wasn't as dramatic as it should have been.  In fact, my response was very much "Alright - so what?"  The dynamic between your surviving sister/brother is really great, though.

LITE SPOILER ALERT!

ALSO, the ordeal with Hawke's mother later on was... quite simply one of the most awesome questlines I've ever played in a game.  All of it.  The build up of the mystery when you first encountered the problem, and then the first investigation, and then later it comes back up after you thought it was resolved. And when you get to "that room" with all "that stuff" in it.  I literally couldn't wait to see what was going on, and who was behind it.  And then, when I saw... it really was a big deal for me in the game.  It really hit home.  That never happened to me in DAO.

In fact, everything that deal with the Hawke estate/family was probably the best part of the game.  And I liked it because it wasn't all front loaded.  It spanned it out throughout the entirety.  I would very much rather have that than what DAO offered.

[KnightofPhoenix]

mrcrusty wrote...
It doesn't even have to be a pre-flight. An actual escape from Lothering sequence probably would've been enough, if done well.

The reason I prefer pre-flight is that it would add more sympathy to Hawke and would add to the idea that he is a refugee. Refugees are not just fleeing from somewhere. They are people who lost something. The life Hawke lost should be shown imo.

While your scenario is much better, imo, it would still be flawed in the same way (just less so).

This game introduces Hawke as a character. Imo, it should start slow.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 juillet 2011 - 02:22 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

mrcrusty wrote...
It doesn't even have to be a pre-flight. An actual escape from Lothering sequence probably would've been enough, if done well.

The reason I prefer pre-flight is that it would add more sympathy to Hawke and would add to the idea that he is a refugee. Refugees are not just fleeing from somewhere. They are people who lost something. The life Hawke lost should be shown imo.

While your scenario is much better, imo, it would still be flawed in the same way (just less so).

This game introduces Hawke as a character. Imo, it should start slow.

I would actually prefer that, to be honest. But if BioWare really wanted to test out In Medias Res, it's possible to do it in a way that built a stronger connection with your family. Which is what I was going for with my hypothetical.

[erynnar]

Persephone wrote...

mrcrusty wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Playing DAO again, what little time I spend with my "family" and "friends" before conscription, really helped me bond with them. Rather than say, being thrown into a demo battle with one sibling, then character cutomization, then running with my family only to have my mother be a **** and my brother or sister get made into human jam. It all happens a little too quick.

In Medias Res is hard to get right for a game. It's easier in novels and film, but very difficult in games.

Simply because while you can accept that the Hawke feels strongly about his family, you're not shown the connection they have through the gameplay. That makes it difficult for the player to get attached to the characters too. Because unlike a novel or film, where the assumption is natural, you have to build it up in a game through interaction, otherwise the player is not engaged.

That said, it can work depending on how it's done.

The opening sequence for Beyond Good and Evil, for example.

Well said. Completely agree. 15 minutes with the family pre-flight.........(Never mind actual origins for each class) would make a huge difference IMHO.

For me too Ms.P!  I just needed a little more with them. Otherwise I felt so disconnected from them, and I longed to have more.  I didn't need multiple origins (they are wonderful when I get them, but not necessary). I just yearned for a little more with my family in game.

[Realmzmaster]

The game should have started with Hawke in Lothering going about his daily activity. We could then see Hawke in his environment and how Bethany and/or a mage Hawke was able to avoid the templars. Hawke could have met the warden while out hunting with Carver.

As a bonus for those using a DAO or Awakening save the warden could be the one from that save. Or if no save a generic warden could do. You could also feel the sense of impending doom in overheard conversations.

Once the warden leaves. The darkspawn attack while the family is sharing a meal that Carver and/or Hawke caught while hunting.

It would have been a way to introduce the character and his family.

[TEWR]

mrcrusty wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Well said. Completely agree. 15 minutes with the family pre-flight.........(Never mind actual origins for each class) would make a huge difference IMHO.

It doesn't even have to be a pre-flight. An actual escape from Lothering sequence probably would've been enough, if done well.

You're out with Carver, hunting or something or perhaps coming back/fleeing from Ostagar, as the story warrants. As usual, you're in the lead and he doesn't like it. All of a sudden, a group of Darkspawn come out from the bushes and attack the two of you. Once you kill them you have a small conversation where you realise that Lothering may be in danger.

You rush back to Lothering and find it under attack, buildings burning, people dying, all that good stuff. You find Bethany protecting a group of villagers (and Leandra) from Darkspawn using Magic. Carver jumps in to finish off the rest, nearly getting himself killed in the process. Some interesting dialog with the family and villagers. Some aren't sure what to think about Bethany (and you if Mage) since you're apostates. However, they are isolated pockets of villagers trapped by Darkspawn or w/e who require your help.

Decision time, with Bethany wanting to save them all and Carver wanting to leave them all. Leandra just acts all depressed. Hawke decides and faces the consequences for it.

If Hawke leaves, they are able to escape facing only minor numbers of Darkspawn because the reinforcements had not yet arrived. Carver approves, Bethany doesn't. Cue to start of game.

If Hawke decides to save the villagers, he gains their thanks, exp and gold. However, the delay allowed more Darkspawn to reach Lothering, making their escape many times more difficult. Bethany approves, Carver doesn't. Cue to start of game.

Now, to prevent the latter Hawke from becoming more powerful, just stack on some exp at the end of coward Hawke, or give him access to some really nice low level loot, dead traveller or something. Brave Hawke would find the body already picked to the bone by a group of Darkspawn and miss out on the goodies.

Your idea coupled with the one I made weeks ago would've been perfect I think:

here's an idea for how the beginning should have been.

You are Hawke, a simple Lothering villager doing what comes naturally. Walking around the village, helping your neighbors with a few simple tasks. Then you receive a notice that the army is heading out to Ostagar, and your brother (and you if you're a warrior or rogue) heads off to the forgotten fortress to meet the Darkspawn. Upon arriving at the fortress, you converse with Carver and a female soldier. Her hair is a fiery ginger, but she is no simple woman. She is a woman you do not want to make angry. However, she is called away by her commanding officer and introductions are cut short. You then turn to see a man standing tall and proud in his silver cuirass. He's sporting a beard to be proud of and conversing with four other men. After they leave, he walks up to you and starts talking to you, because... well let's be honest, he has to pass the time until they get back. He introduces himself as Duncan of the Grey Wardens. You converse with him and respect him for what he says. Afterwards, he bids you farewell and awaits for his recruits to return.

The battle begins not long after they return....

As a warrior or rogue, it jumps ahead to the moment of truth when the battle starts. You and your brother lead a full squad of Lothering soldiers against the Darkspawn, awaiting the moment when the Tower Beacon is lit. Cutting down Hurlock after Hurlock, you look up to see if the beacon has been lit. The flames have shot up into the sky, but no reinforcements are coming. Your men are being savagely cut down in front of your eyes, and it's all you can do to keep from sharing their fate. You tell your brother that you have to get out because all is lost, but Carver refuses saying that he would rather die a soldier than desert the others.

Then you remind him that if you both die, so too will Bethany and your Mother. He knows you are right, and while disliking the idea of desertion, he knows that the family takes precedence. Before you turn away from the field however, you see Cailan killed gruesomely by the Ogre, Duncan avenging Cailan's death, but see Duncan fall to his knees. Duncan knows he won't survive, and you want to help him. Why you want to help him above everyone else on the field you don't know, but it may be due to the respect you feel the Wardens deserve. But there is nothing you can do, as Carver holds you back to keep you from rushing headlong to your death.

And so you run away to Lothering to get your family out of the impending danger....

--------------------------------------------

*If you're a Mage*

(everything up until Carver leaves is the same.)

You tell Bethany not to fret about Carver, as he's not going to let some tainted creature kill him. He'd never forgive himself if he did. She says you're right and you go about your business. Then, overhearing two Templars, they say their scouts have reported some Darkspawn stragglers breaking away from the main body of the horde. Their destination? En route to Lothering. The two Templars prepare to move out to take on the Darkspawn with a squad of other Templars.

You and your sister however, know that your magic will prove far better to dealing with them. So off you go to meet the horde. Upon arriving at a suitable destination, you hear both the Templars and the Darkspawn moving closer in. You know if the Templars find you you'll be taken to the Circle, so you head up to the nearest cliffside hill for a better vantage point. It provides great cover from the line of sight of the Templars and will help greatly in eliminating the stragglers.

As your last fireball scorches the final Hurlock, the Templars shout out "A mage?! Show yourself, by order of the Templars! The Order Dictates!"

You both stay hidden. Maybe the Templars should've been left to their fate, as you both hate the Templars and the Circle with a passion. But if they had died, the Darkspawn would've been left unchecked. It doesn't matter. What's done is done, and you sneak away into the bushes to return home.

As you return home however, you see Carver out of breath and your mother trembling. All is not well....

[Aaleel]

Realmzmaster wrote...

The game should have started with Hawke in Lothering going about his daily activity. We could then see Hawke in his environment and how Bethany and/or a mage Hawke was able to avoid the templars. Hawke could have met the warden while out hunting with Carver.

As a bonus for those using a DAO or Awakening save the warden could be the one from that save. Or if no save a generic warden could do. You could also feel the sense of impending doom in overheard conversations.

Once the warden leaves. The darkspawn attack while the family is sharing a meal that Carver and/or Hawke caught while hunting.

It would have been a way to introduce the character and his family.

If Bethany was going to be the surviving sibling I would have had a scene when the Templars come looking for her saying they heard an apostate was there, and you having to hide her.  Show how much she fears the circle or just the kind of constant fear mages live under.  Show how much you go through to protect your sister.

If Carver, the hunting thing is fine, or maybe practicing, just to show what kind of rivalry the two of you have.

But the main thing it does is connect the two games for the people who played the first.  But nothing to significant to where new players would be lost.

[Lookupatme]

Raice wrote...

This is a great example of a list of non-issues mixed in with one solid complaint.

Lookupatme wrote...

 Dragon age Origins is by far the better game on pratically every conceivable measure.

[*]DAO has a better and more involved storyline and the sidequests are more enjoyable. This is a non-issue because this is an opnion.  I think the storyline of DA2 is far better because a) it's original and it is more personable about my character and not everone who isn't my character.   - I disagree I enjoyed Origins storyline far more than DA2 the 3 main branches to the the treaty quests were more epic in scale and more involving for me personally. My opinions are not non-issues .

[*] The game has a greater replay value due to all the different story strands and initial character origin quests, there is also a ton of DLC which DA2 doesn't have.  DLC?  DA2 has been out - what - 3 months?  Give me a break.  As far as DAO's replay value - the only things that were different were the origina quests... which lasted maybe an hour a peice.  Non-issue because this is again, an opinion-   I spent far more gameplay hours on DAO in my first play through than I did DA2, which equates to better VFM for me.  The original Character Origin quests take longer than an hour to complete.I'll be surprised if they release as much DLC for DA2 as they did for DAO.Stop referring to other peoples opinions as non issues as its a very ignorant thing to do. 

[*]The characters are better developed in  DAO and they interact with each other more effectively. The only truely memmorable characters in DA2 for me are Isabela and Varric; whereas in DAO I especially liked :Morrigan, Leliana, Sten, Alistair and Oghren.  Opinion = non-issue.  I liked all the characters in DA2.  Actually, I liked them all better than I liked any of the characters in DAO.  I'm not saying the characters in DAO were bad - but I am saying I think all the ones in DA2 were better.-  Let me start calling your opinions as non-issues  and see how you like it. From my point of view the characters in DAO talk to each other more effectively and more frequently than they do in DA2. Your main character can talk to the other characters in you party at any time you don't have to wait until you arrive at their home location.

[*]Romances in DA2 are not a patch on DAO.  I don't even know what this means - non-issue.- Let me try to alleviate the fog that has descended down on you. -The romances are better written in DAO for example you have the rivalry than ensues between Morrigan and Leliana if you start romancing both of them. You have the option to kiss your romantic involvement in camp or even on the road, which you don't in DA2.The romances feel more intimate.

[*]Conversation options have been dumbed down.  You mean like how they were in Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 - which seem to be one everyone's "Best RPG EVER!" list?  How exactly have the options been dumbed down?  Instead of the clear cut "This is bad" "This is good" "This is neutral" selection we normally get, we get to control the behavior of what is being said.  I don't know that it was taken advantage of completely, but it certainly isn't "dumbed down" and you really have no evidence to this claim.  Non-issue
-In DAO you normally have a greater variety of conversation options at your selection than you do in DA2. I don't feel the need to have the stupid symbols in front of the dialogue selections in order to assist me in what option to select.[*]DAO has multiple locations,maps and cities to explore in DA2 everything is confined to the one city KIrkwall and the maps are continually spammed.   The only solid complaint anyone has, and I wholeheartedly agree-----.  So now that you agree with me my opinion is suddenly not a non-issue. Do you realise how ludicrous you sound?

[*]Combat has junked out on amphetamaine sulphate. Too much leaping and jumping about,very hack and slash. The more strategic combat which I prefered has been chucked out of the window.  This one baffles me.  It really does.  I loaded up DAO last night just to make sure I wasn't forgetting some important detail in the gameplay that made it at all differet than that of DA2.  What did I find?  They work exactly the same in both games.  I click once on a dude with RMB and Auto Attack ensues.  I press 1-0 to select a power, and then select the target.  It works exactly the same in both games.  In DA2, it is visually faster and more fun to watch.  That's.... that's it.  This isn't just a non-issue.  This is a flat out lie.  The only thing I can figure is that this complaint stems from the XBOX360 version.  On the PC, it plays exactly the same.-----  The combat was a major issue for me and is the reason why I postponed purchasing DA2 for some 3 months after its release, its plays more like an action/adventure game than it does an rpg.

[*]Enemies constantly exploding into buckets of gore is too mangaesque.In DAO you would sometimes get some neat decapitations, which were at least more realistic looking.   Flavor differences.  I can appreciate the gravity of this issue.  I will say it is a solid complaint, but not a major, gamebreaking issue.  It can easily be turned down or off.  In fact, they released a patch that did exactly that.---- Flavour differences, that I preferred.

[*]DAO has the better and more varied abilities,talents and spells. The spell effects look better and more realistic in combat  aswell I don't like the ability tree format.   I could write essays about this.  Someone please exaplain to me in detail how DAO's skill progression was so much more complex and awesome?  Again, I loaded up DAO last night to give myself a refresher.  You know what I found out?  There really was no complexity to the skills/ability selections.  If you were a Fighter - you basically put everything into Strength and Con.  A Mage - Magic and Willpower.  Rogue's were screwed because they had to worry about Dex Cunning and Strength.  Picking your skills was pretty unexciting too.  As a Warrior I had a lot of stuff to select from, but I knew that whatever I started in, I had to finish - because putting a little into Sword/Shield and a little into Two-Handed is pointless.  It took a lot of the guess work out of making a character.  The other classes functioned pretty much the same way.  In DA2 - "the level up" is probably one of the coolest parts of the game, because you literally can make your warrior however you want.  You don't have to be a meat shield and use Sword/Shield.  You can be the meat shield and still use 2H weapons.  Rogue's don't have to be sneak attack chumps.  They can be Tanks or Crowd Controllers.  Mages are all over the place.  In DAO, there was none of that.  So as far as I'm concerned, the complaint that DAO has better skills and such is just fanboy raving.  Non-issue. --- If you can't see that DAO has a greater selection of skills,abilities and talents then might I recommend you purchase a pair of spectacles.

[*]Herbs,poisons and grenades have been simplified to their detriment.  I assume you are talking about how they are crafted.  If you ask me, they weren't simplified for the worse.  If I remember correctly, in DAO there was at least one vendor for each ingredient somewhere in the world that would sell an unlimited supply.  All you did was roam around to each one of those, and buy up some stuff.  DA2 pretty much does the same thing without all the leg-work.  Non-issue.---- I didn't have an issue with the legwork and at least it felt as though your individual character was crafting the resource themselves rather than poorly contrived mess that you have in DA2.

[*]The lack of customisation of characters armour and equipment is a big miss. Once again simplified for the casual gamer.  That really has nothing to do with casual gamers.  What it has to do with is Bioware didn't want the supporting cast to look like they were built on a standardized mesh and 3d modelling of a generic female_human or whatever.  They wanted these characters to look special - because they are.  I can sort of see how this is a major turn off to people, but then again... it's kind of a non-issue.  Why?  Because my character has all the customization in the world, I can still affect the bonuses applied to the other tcharactersand no one looks the same or generic.  --- In an rpg the gamer should retain the right to fully customise their characters armour/equipment I don't want the development team to do on my behalf or should I say the casual gamers behalf.

[*]Some of the monster appearance changes have taken a step back the Darkspawn just look less menacing and pure ugly to look at, with no differentiation between Hurlocks and Genlocks. The Qunari looked better without horns.  This is just getting ridiculous, people.  This is probably the biggest nitpick on this list.  NON-ISSUE----. A non-issue for you but not for me.

[*]The Codex,Journal and Character info has been once again simplified. In DAO interesting info like most powerful foe slain by each character was available to view.  I stand corrected.  Why do you need to know what the most powerful foe slain is?  Why is this information important?  It's the same foe every time you play the game.  There's no surprise.  The most powerful foe is the final fight.  There - I saved you the guess work.  NON-ISSUE! ----I liked having a more in depth analysis of the characters performances from combat it reminded me a bit of Baldur's Gate in that regard. 

[*]Trash - I don't want to be collecting and selling it.  I can agree with this.  Its a meritted complaint.  But, it's nothing gamebreaking.

[*]Restrictions on healing spells meaning you can't cast straight after offensive spells without activating a sustained mode.This is a pain in the arse to put it bluntly.  Never ran into this situation.  I didn't try to build characters that could do anything and everything.  I have a team for a reason.  Actually, I played most of the game without heals.  Not because the game was on easy, but simply because I spent time understanding the abilities, the tactics, and how to build an effective team.  People would appreciate the depth of the game more if they did more of that an less complaining about non-issues.  In DAO, if you didn't have a healer... you were dead.  There was no way around it.  You had to have a healer and a million POTs.  In DA2, If I can build a solid team and play the game smartly and with proper tactics... I don't need a healer... ever.  Maybe a POT if there's a dragon.  This is a non-issue because you just simply need to learn how to play the game.----- I don't need to take lectures from you about how to play the game.

[*]I think I've pretty much summed it up  despite just slagging DA2 big time I actually enjoyed the game to a certain extent, but to me it doesn't hold a candle to DAO and the way in which core fans have been abandoned in order to attract the casual gamer that lacks the patience to deal with the intricacies and customisation of rpgs is a really poor show.  I don't thnk DA2 was designed for the casual gamer in particular.  I think it was designed very well.  I also think the production of it was cut a year too short.  All of the major complaints of DA2 would have been completely non-existent had the team had another year to build the assets they needed so that they wouldn't have to recycle so much stuff.  DA2 is nearly perfect mechanically.  It is far and away a better game mechanically.  And to me, that means a lot.  Story-wise.... I won't say either one is necessarily better.  They both are great.  I prefer DA2 because... well... it was something different and I enjoyed the characters a lot more because of the decisions they made to make the characters more visually unique.  The things most of you complain about are.... well... they're fluff really.  I can appreciate that you like the fluff.  And yeah - sure - the game is less for not having it.  But fluff doesn't change the fact that DAO was not this great game everyone is making it out to be.  -----  If you bother looking at this forum thread I think you'll find that the majority of people have come out in favour of DAO as being the better game over DA2. You have been rightfully flamed by others because you have been dismissing other peoples legitimate concerns as if you are some sort of divine judge. Pinch yourself and wake up you are nothing of the sort.

[JFarr74]

Both have their flaws (though it seems Dragon Age 2 has tons more...)

[alex90c]

The first thing that bothered me with the prologue was how we were meant to be running away from the darkspawn and yet we were simply fighting wave after wave of them. If we were really capable of doing that, why were we even running?

The second thing that bothered me (and this doesn't even affect me, it just irritates me) is how Bioware said people could jump in to Dragon Age 2 straight away and yet left you so many unexplained elements if you did. Who/what/where is Ferelden? What is Ostagar? Who is King Cailan? What exactly are darkspawn, and why are they so scary? What's even the Blight? Now this is the part where someone tells me it's in some codex entry or something, but the point I'm trying to make it DA2 introduced all of those things (and more) in the prologue and yet didn't even explain them for the new gamer. It was just "these are facts X, Y and Z, just accept them k?".

[erynnar]

Sorry Raice, DAO is more complex on the skills. Been playing it again, and not just for a refresher. I have played for hours. I don't just spam dex and cunning for my rogues. I put points in str and con too. It helps. DA2, I did that and found it was as useful as ****** on a boar hog.

[Raice]

erynnar wrote...

Sorry Raice, DAO is more complex on the skills. Been playing it again, and not just for a refresher. I have played for hours. I don't just spam dex and cunning for my rogues. I put points in str and con too. It helps. DA2, I did that and found it was as useful as ****** on a boar hog.

So, exactly why does a Mage need to put points into anything other than Magic and Willpower?  Technically, they don't, which is why they are rather OP.  They literally have no need for any of the other Attibutes except maybe Cunning.  However, they can get everything they need out of it with a score of 16.

Warriors and Rogues are slightly different - they are actually more flexible in this aspect.  They can both be Melee combatants, which means Str for damage is always useful, and Con with more health is never a bad thing.  Cunning for Rogues is a "gimme" but 16 for the Warrior is still okay for the same reasons its useful for the Mage.  Sword/Board and Dual Wield Warriors are required to get at least a 26 in Dex in order to get their most useful skills.  But they still need high Str and high Con to use the better armors.  And then there is the whole Critical Hit being tied to the Dex and stuff.  I don't have to explain it all - you know how all that jazz works...

Now, admitedly, the real problem with DAO in this department is not the Rogue and the Warrior - sort of.  They are actually not indicative of anything being borked.  See, even with a hgih Con and Dex, they are going to get hit... a lot.  And they will need to use potions, because the way heals work.... Basically, the game expects the Warriors (especially) to spam Pots while being healed.  It's just how the battle goes - you're going to spam them.  Unfortunately, Health Pots are connected to your Magic Attribute.

And so that means Rogues and Warriors are making some serious sacrifices here.  Mostly Warriors though, becauses Rogues can technically bypass needing Str altogether if they have too, since they can rely on Critical Hit advantages that Warriors don't have access too, which means all of their Damage will roll off their Dex.  Either way, they already have like 3 Attributes they HAVE to put points into.  Another one that is practically a necessity but could do with a minimal amount - so that's 4.  And then, let's not forget about Willpower which gives them Stamina.  They really don't have any points to spare, here, yet something they are going to have to do (spam pots) depends on their Magic.  So, yes, there is a lot to toy with here.

Now, I guess that's okay, because you can always have a healer.  Except the point there is that it basically makes the Warrior and Rogue completely dependent on the Healer - which means you have to have one.  But is that okay, since it's a team-game anyway?  Well... not really...

The problem is the Mage.  They literally don't need to waste points in anything other than Magic and Willpower.  They literally have no need for Con, Dex, Str, and really Cun (add 4 points into this and you're golden for the rest of the game.)  Their abilities in Magic allow them to do everything they need to do Magically, which means their prowess in battle is based entirely on one Attribute.  And Willpower is just icing.  They can already spam pots ridiculously, because of their insane Magic.  So, they have this offset going on.  Their mulpliers and stuff are going nuts because they usually have higher scores.  Plus the fact that some of the Spells are OP anyway.... the balance of the game is really being thrown off with Mages.

In DA2, things are slightly more.... sleek, I think is a good word.  Some things are reworked.  But the point is, you don't have the situation where any of the Attributes are completely useless to any of the classes.  It's very easu to make an Off-Tank Mage in DA2, simply because you boosted your Con and your Cun (think, Cunning improves evasion or something - it might be Dex.)  So, yes, it is somewhat more streamlined, but on the whole, it works a lot better.

Plus, the functionality of how each Attribute has a specific function for each class, but also does something special for a specific class.

Str and Con do something special for Warriors.

Dex and Cun do something special for Rogues.

Mag and Wil do something special for Mages.

But all of the attributes do something very useful and can be highly effective, for anyone regardless of the class.  DAO didn't do this, really.  It sort of did it for Rogues and Warriors... but Mages were somehow treated specially.  And, it threw the balance of the game WAY off.  It's one of the main reasons why Mages were incredibly more powerful in DAO.  It's also why people claim Mages are underpowered or "weak" in DA2.  They aren't actually weaker or underpowered.  They're just not broken like they were in DAO.  BECAUSE, the Attributes in DA2 actually make sense.  You have options, but each class really only HAS to put points in two Attributes.  The rest is just flare according to how you build you character.

[Morroian]

erynnar wrote...

Sorry Raice, DAO is more complex on the skills. Been playing it again, and not just for a refresher. I have played for hours. I don't just spam dex and cunning for my rogues. I put points in str and con too. It helps. DA2, I did that and found it was as useful as ****** on a boar hog.

My rogue play through of DAO was the easiest and I only ever put points in dex and cunning.

[Firky]

I just pumped the two primary stats for class in Origins and didn't give it a second thought. In DAII, everyone kept dying until I actually stopped, realised that all the stats actually did meaningful stuff for each class and then tried to create more balanced builds. I agree that the "non-primary" stats per class are optional, especially on lower difficulties, but they can quite radically change your build, over the course of the game. (My Fenris and my Carver are very different at lvl13, for example, largely due to stats. Also, abilities, because its all related, but you know.)

PS. IMO, the stat system in DAII is an improvement. (But I didn't really dig that heavily into it in Origins, because I just wasn't really being challenged.)

Modifié par Firky, 04 juillet 2011 - 07:56 .

[Ronnel]

DAO heavy rpg elements with okay combat, DA2 weak rpg elements with unbelievable combat erm my vote is DAO.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

DA:O wasn't unbalanced because of some minor stats thing. It was unbalanced for the same reason 3.5E/PF D&D is unbalanced - when you have monsters that hit people with pointy things, two classes that hit people with pointy things, and one class that gets to dictate when, where, and how hard people get hit with pointy things, that last class is going to control battles. Of course, replacing that with the Awesome Button is like fixing a wobbly bike by taking off the wheels.

[JFarr74]

alex90c wrote...

The first thing that bothered me with the prologue was how we were meant to be running away from the darkspawn and yet we were simply fighting wave after wave of them. If we were really capable of doing that, why were we even running?

The second thing that bothered me (and this doesn't even affect me, it just irritates me) is how Bioware said people could jump in to Dragon Age 2 straight away and yet left you so many unexplained elements if you did. Who/what/where is Ferelden? What is Ostagar? Who is King Cailan? What exactly are darkspawn, and why are they so scary? What's even the Blight? Now this is the part where someone tells me it's in some codex entry or something, but the point I'm trying to make it DA2 introduced all of those things (and more) in the prologue and yet didn't even explain them for the new gamer. It was just "these are facts X, Y and Z, just accept them k?".

They probably though that most people who bought the game had already played Dragon Age: Origins.

[Persephone]

To use musical terms:

Why turn something like a DUET into a DUEL?

Because it's more fun that way, I guess.

It's like two opera divas being at each other's throats rather than just singing different repertoire well.