402 réponses à ce sujet

[elevul]

Xebioz wrote...
It was present, but it didn't really have a purpose? It was just a sort of warm-up for the main event which was started way later (which I enjoyed). And I did all the sidequests in this game so don't go and say I didn't do them. I said it was the endgame quest, that's the problem? It was only a real important issue for about 2 hours of gameplay. Most of the storyline was just random reasons for Hawke to end up in the mountains, in the deep roads, finding wierd relics (How did Meredith even know about this?), and running around Kirkwall. Yes it was a personal story, but to me it seemed more interesting to do the side-quest storylines most of the time.

It had a very important purpose: make you think. The issue was brought up multiple times in multiple quests and dialogs because it had the purpose to make you completely understand the situation, so you could later on decide with which side fight and, ultimately, what to do (even if you chose the templars in the endgame, there were other choices in that choice that are given to you during the endgame).
But if you rushed the game and focused only on finishing the quests, without reading and understand them, it's normal that you didn't understand or see anything of this. So, like I said, go back and replay the game, this time with more attention.

P.S: I think by now a lot of people already understood it, but let's make it clear: the reason Bioware stated a lengthof about 50 hours (when the game can be completed at 100% in less than 25 hours easily) is that to understand what's happening you need to read and listen carefully to everything the game throws to you. This is not a game with a fixed backbone (aka, the purpose is assembling an army to kill the final boss. Everything else is unimportant), this is a game where everything is working towards telling you the story. EVERYTHING is the purpose, because the main purpose of the game is not killing the final boss, but making you answer to the question: what should be done with mages?

Modifié par elevul, 12 mars 2011 - 01:55 .

[tez19]

Xebioz wrote...

tez19 wrote...

Xebioz wrote...

Exzander1 wrote...

Xebioz wrote...
I prefer an overused 'set-up' because there was so much that could be changed in DA:O considering how you did things (take werewolves/dalish scenario for instance). In DA:2 you have one issue which was interesting to me. This was the Mage vs. Templar (which we already had a taste of in DA:O), but like I said earlier this was in the end of the game. Before this there was no real coherent main story line.

Picking Dalish and werewolves is not the main story. That's as good as a side quest is. The main story in DA:O is about you trying to kill a big dragon. Everything in between that, such as picking dalish or the wolves, that doens't effect the story in any way shape or form, it's completely pointless in the story. It's fun, but that has no barring whatsoever on the actual story.

The story is literally "collect an army and kill bad guy". Everything else is optional things that don't affect or have anything to do with the story at all.

Ok so then the main story of DA:2 is just about killing Meredith/Orsino?

I see main-story as the main-story quests in your journal. The quests in that section is what I will regard as main story and this is what is to me very incoherent at times in DA:2.

Nice of you to post spoilers in this thread. Are you really that dumb? I think you are butthurt because you kind of resemble the guy in the picture i posted.

You haven't played it or are you trying to make me mad with personal attakcs? I will edit it to have a spoiler warning since you pointed that out.

Also, why don't you respond to my arguments?

Because i have not played through the game yet. I already knew about the endgame boss's but someone else might read this thread and the spoiler you posted could ruin it for them. You seem to have some good points but i simply will not respond because i have not played through the game yet. My arguement about the people whining and nerdraging is that they have NO constructive arguement they are just throwing their toys out of their pram as bioware changed focus and was aiming more toward the console market. I do not make a habit of visiting forums but when i have done PC gamers in general seem to be very whiney and self entitled arrogant arse's. Some PC gamers are great to debate with but the majority i have come into contact with are the scum of humanity.

Modifié par tez19, 12 mars 2011 - 01:49 .

[Teh Chozen Wun]

Seb Hanlon wrote...

Also, please don't post spoilers in the forum marked "No Spoilers".

QFT

[Xebioz]

Exzander1 wrote...

Xebioz wrote...

Ok so then the main story of DA:2 is just about killing Meredith/Orsino?

I see main-story as the main-story quests in your journal. The quests in that section is what I will regard as main story and this is what is to me very incoherent at times in DA:2.

The main quest is figuring out what it is you need to do. You start out low in the city, trying to work your way up. Throughout doing the quest, you uncover more and more about the major issues. Eventually you find out what you need to do, which is also enjoyable, as you stated.

Unlike DA:O, where 30 mins into the game you know what the story is, what you are doing, what the goal is, and you go around doing that goal with no plost twists or anything whatsoever. I'm not saying there's lots of plot twists in DA2 either, but the setup for DA:O's story is very cliche, very overdone, and very boring at this point.

DA2's story allows you to figure out what the main goal is throughout the game, it allows you to "grow up" throught the game, etc.

If it's about working yourself up then it fails in my opinion.

SPOILER AHEAD


You move into the mansion almost straight away (after expedition) and you are a noble at this point.


SPOILER ENDED

You know what you are supposed to do in DA:O after about 3 hours yes, but you have no idea how to accomplish this task and this takes most of the game to figure out. The main plot of DA:O also revolves largely around Loghain aswell so it's not just about a dragon in my opinion.

[Theagg]

Exzander1 wrote...

Actually, "most" of us don't agree. First, this forum is fairly split on the subject, as mentioned before. Second, the vast, vast, VAST majority of people that have the game don't even post on these forums.

Yes, the vast majority of buyers never express an opinion one way or the other. They may love it, hate it or feel indifferent but ultimately no one publically ever knows. So sales numbers alone ( of which the largest proportion is bought by that silent majority )  cannot be used as a metric of the games quality.

However, just like opinion polls that use relatively small sample sizes ( in comparison to the population as a whole ) to "statistically" arrive at the prevailing views of that larger population on many matters, so the small number of people who do post their opinions on the game on forums etc can be used to get some idea of how the larger audience might feel..if they were asked

[Surematt]

The main thing i want back is origins.

[Xebioz]

tez19 wrote...

Because i have not played through the game yet. I already knew about the endgame boss's but someone else might read this thread and the spoiler you posted could ruin it for them. You seem to have some good points but i simply will not respond because i have not played through the game yet. My arguement about the people whining and nerdraging is that they have NO constructive arguement they are just throwing their toys out of their pram as bioware changed focus and was aiming more toward the console market. I do not make a habit of visiting forums but when i have done PC gamers in general seem to be very whiney and set entitled arrogant arse's. Some PC gamers are great to debate with but the majority i have come into contact with are the scum of humanity.

Am I really the best example of rage you see in this thread? Are you a console gamer then? If so I can understand many of the improvements as DA:O was mainly a pc game (although many console people love it as well).

[Duncan Anderson]

ObjectivelySubjective wrote...

Duncan Anderson wrote...
Second, you are correct again. Even though the arguments are within these walls, the exact measurement cannot actually be counted by outsiders. The world is bigger than one forum.

Like I said, check the user score in any game review site. Clearly the majority hates it....

http://www.metacriti...c/dragon-age-ii
http://www.gamespot....=result;title;0

and as I said, these are a) not necessarily representative, (there not necessarily unrepresentative either of course but the nature of the internet gives us reaon to suspect that they might be), and a tiny proportion of the total population, based on those links, even being generous and assuming absolutely no overlap and ignoring any accusations of trolling, multiple accounts and what have you, we're talking about less that two and a half thousand people, that's a drop in the ocean.

[Literateminority]

tRaGiQuE wrote...

Jacopo Belbo wrote...

Drogo45 wrote...

Most do not agree. Most see that DA2 is better and more advanced than DA. You are in the minority by a long shot.

wow. you are just a complete moron.  hey, here is a clue.  when you simplify everything that is the exact opposite of making it more "advanced".  this game is for 17 year old button mashing x-boxers.  it was supposed to be for mature adult RPGers if it wanted to be a true heir to BG, NWN and DA:O.  but EA and Bioware went for the ****** crowd like you.  oh nooooz there are too many choices for character classes and races and traits and skills and equipment!  how will i ever make it thru this game if i have to think and plan at every turn!  the point of a really good RPG is to make you think, in detail, about everything you are doing and every choice you are making. from a charcter development point, from a party/companion development point, from a plot/story point.  there are a world of crappy action/adventure hack and slash trash out there if you don't want to think and mash buttons and do combos and spew blood everywhere.  now RPGs don't have to be as complicated and open ended as Morrowind (that was too "open ended") but the same cave over and over?  one city (with a few "outskirts"?  every cave or dungeon being one long corridor essentially?  DA:O was too limited in my opinion compared to NWN but the dumbing down was minor (mostly a lack of variety in equipment) and any such failings were compensated for by a very big world with multiple different areas to go to in any order and a pretty vast and sprawling story.  this game dumbed down the already dumbed down DA:O to the point that calling it an RPG is a farce.  if game sites and stores weren't so in the pocket and up the arse of EA they should rightly put this game in the action/adventure category next to prince of persia.

if you like your games dumb and bloody then i am sure this is a hit for you.  i liked god of war, it was a neat story and it didn't make me think too hard.  this is an RPG it was supposed to make me think and it was supposed to be engaging and instead it was a steaming pile of feces and if you like it and think it is "advanced" shows you have ****e for taste (and like the taste of ****e).

Hey now I agree with your post but don't go insulting all of us on 360......lol  
We aren't all teenage button mashing tards that have no concept of what an RPG is anymore.

Well, it is just very hard not to have negative feelings towards consoles when we suffer so much because of them. Both hardware and player limitations are killing good gaming. Semi-literate 11 year olds are the smallest common nominator in gaming now. "Accessibility" means dumbing all games down to the point where this target group can play them. It makes you want to scream. And 500MB Shared memory is what has lead to the great new "level design" seen in almost all games now which basically consists of narrow corridor after corridor and many loading screens in between.

[DarkSpider88]

ObjectivelySubjective wrote...

DarkSpider88 wrote...

I do not agree. I played DA:O six times and I think DA2 is better, but maybe it is because I am a console gamer.

Are you speaking combat wise, or plot/features/gfx/locations?

Like the combat better, it is more fluid. Plot is on the same level, not sure what you mean about features or gfx, I will admit there could have been a little more variety in locations. I honestly think it was a more polished well playing game.

[Zepplin_Rules]

"Increasingly, people seem to misinterpret complexity as sophistication, which is baffling---the incomprehensible should cause suspicion rather than admiration."

This is NOT a good metaphor for Bioware. A lot of people understood DnD just fine. Find a different way to insult us, that is pathetic.

[Exzander1]

Xebioz wrote...

If it's about working yourself up then it fails in my opinion.

SPOILER AHEAD


You move into the mansion almost straight away (after expedition) and you are a noble at this point.


SPOILER ENDED

You know what you are supposed to do in DA:O after about 3 hours yes, but you have no idea how to accomplish this task and this takes most of the game to figure out. The main plot of DA:O also revolves largely around Loghain aswell so it's not just about a dragon in my opinion.

You have no idea how to accomplish getting an army? I don't understand. You get contracts for the 4 different sections, these contracts bind them to help you. You go to each place, ask them to help, in the very cliche, obviosuly fashion, they say " i will help you....if you do a task for me!". You do it, they help, move on the the next one until you kill the main baddie.

It's very boring, overdone set up, the way it works out (i help you if you do this little favor for me) is overdone, everything about the story is overdone.. everything. No real plot twists that are shockers or anything that makes you go "wow!".

in DA2, the story allows something more unique, it allows you to wonder more, etc.

The story isn't amazing obviously, it's about as average as DA:O's is, the difference is, at least in DA2 you aren't gathering X amount of troops to kill Y badguy which has been done countless times and is a pure bore. It's at least something newish and interesting.

[Killer3000ad]

Fans of BG who wanted more of the same don't like DA2 whereas younger peeps who never touched a mouse and keyboard think DA2 is best thing since the M1911 pistol was adopted by the US military. Unfortunately, we old folks are in the minority and Bioware is simply going where the money is. The bottomline is what counts.

Should Bioware make a game that would please BG fans but drive away young mainstream/casual gamers and end up selling less? Or make a game that would ****** off most of the old BG but bring in huge sales numbers to impress their overlords at EA? As harsh as it is, the old school D&D/BG fanbase are a dying breed and if I were looking to make huge sales figures, the latter option is much harshly, the proper logical one.

[Theagg]

Duncan Anderson wrote...

and as I said, these are a) not necessarily representative, (there not necessarily unrepresentative either of course but the nature of the internet gives us reaon to suspect that they might be), and a tiny proportion of the total population, based on those links, even being generous and assuming absolutely no overlap and ignoring any accusations of trolling, multiple accounts and what have you, we're talking about less that two and a half thousand people, that's a drop in the ocean.

As I have just suggested though, national opinion poll surveys make statistical claims about the views of millions of people based on polling just a few thousand subjects. So, given the rate of number of game units sold ( which I suspect is currently less than 'millions' ) to the numbers expressing their opinion, the opinions of 2500 people actually can be claimed to be fairly representative.

[tez19]

Xebioz wrote...

tez19 wrote...

Because i have not played through the game yet. I already knew about the endgame boss's but someone else might read this thread and the spoiler you posted could ruin it for them. You seem to have some good points but i simply will not respond because i have not played through the game yet. My arguement about the people whining and nerdraging is that they have NO constructive arguement they are just throwing their toys out of their pram as bioware changed focus and was aiming more toward the console market. I do not make a habit of visiting forums but when i have done PC gamers in general seem to be very whiney and set entitled arrogant arse's. Some PC gamers are great to debate with but the majority i have come into contact with are the scum of humanity.

Am I really the best example of rage you see in this thread? Are you a console gamer then? If so I can understand many of the improvements as DA:O was mainly a pc game (although many console people love it as well).

I was not talking about this thread specifically, i was talking about the forum in general throughout the last few days.
Yes i am a console gamer and i loved origins. I would of been happy if they kept the combat from origins but they didn't. It is not a huge issue for me i take games as they come, they are after all just games. I have much more important things in my life to worry about and stress over but if the people nerdraging do not then i feel sorry for them if DA2 is the major concern in their life.

[cheesewhiz]

Exzander1 wrote...

Menu? What do you mean by menu? The game's menu is pretty much exaclty the same. If you're talking about all menus (inventory, skill tree menu, quests, etc) then this one is actually sleeker and more well designed. Simple yes, but why the hell would I want my menus complicated?

Locations is a fault, I don't disagree. Does this make for a disaster of game? Uh, no, not even close and in no way shape or form. It's a legit complaint - no game is perfect.

Customization is worse than DA:O but not bad by any means. It's still "good", it still gets the job done, and you can still customize every character except armor. You can do weapons, shield, trinkets, rings, necklace, etc. You can't change their armor, that's it.

Compare this to:

Better combat
Better graphics (debatable, based on which art style you like)
better story (yes, it has a better story, how many times have you played a hero trying to take down an ultimate evil like you do in Origins? Pretty much every game out there)
better talent tree/skills

Now, even if you don't agree with some of the above positives, that still doesn't make this a disaster of a game, or a terrible game, or a bad game. It's a very solid rpg, it's long, lots to do, many side quests, fun combat, interesting story, you still have the tactics on hard mode and above, etc etc.

If you want to say the game isn't as good as Origins, I can completely understand that. However,  to say this game is a disaster or is bad, is plain out ridiculous, it has all the elements to make a very solid, fun RPG, and it's just that.

It just so happens that because you and others compare it to Origins it looks bad, but in reality, it's not, it's a solid,  fun, good  RPG

IMO, the menus/secondary screens are terrible. The dark red/black screen, wtf. I can't read half the stuff. Especially the color coded item materials. Red Steel is deep red on black, usually surrounded above and below by bright colors for name and stars. Same thing for the washed out gray used for some items. I literally need to get up and walk over to the tv to read it. Nice idea to use color coding. Too bad no one actually tried it out first.

Also, bright text on a black background? wtf. Designed by a 15yo myspace major. There is a reason text is dark on a light background. I don't want text seared into my retinas, thank you very much. 

Seems like the designer has some goth/punk issues to work out. And what bugs me is that they clearly spent time on it, and went and made something that was fine worse. I don't think I heard anyone complain about the secondary screens of DA:O. Better if they had taken those resources and built more locations. 

Item descriptions are terrible. I have 5 items in my inventory that say "belt." Along with 6 "ring." How is it simplified when I have to look at each item individually to figure out what the hell it does?

I have no idea what armor class something is. Maybe I'm missing something, but I have no idea how to figure it out. 

The skill tree, while pretty, is bad functionally. I am constantly flipping back and forth. This might change after I memorize every skill and talent and have a clear build in mind. But why should I have to? What was wrong with having all the tree on one screen?

However, I am with you on other things. I'm fine with the combat. I think the graphics, especially the character models, are much better. The writing seems solid so far. 

Do I hate the game? Not at all. I think the fundamentals are just fine. 

But it is becoming quite clear to me that this is a half-baked game. Either money or time constrained, or both. There are a lot of things that just seem unfinished. Re-used locations. Few locations. Re-used codex. Clearly unfinished descriptions for items. Seems like there were some severe constraints in play here. 

And I'm not even going to mention the Isabella bug that stopped me from doing her quest...

Modifié par cheesewhiz, 12 mars 2011 - 02:02 .

[Xebioz]

Exzander1 wrote...

Xebioz wrote...

If it's about working yourself up then it fails in my opinion.

SPOILER AHEAD


You move into the mansion almost straight away (after expedition) and you are a noble at this point.


SPOILER ENDED

You know what you are supposed to do in DA:O after about 3 hours yes, but you have no idea how to accomplish this task and this takes most of the game to figure out. The main plot of DA:O also revolves largely around Loghain aswell so it's not just about a dragon in my opinion.

You have no idea how to accomplish getting an army? I don't understand. You get contracts for the 4 different sections, these contracts bind them to help you. You go to each place, ask them to help, in the very cliche, obviosuly fashion, they say " i will help you....if you do a task for me!". You do it, they help, move on the the next one until you kill the main baddie.

It's very boring, overdone set up, the way it works out (i help you if you do this little favor for me) is overdone, everything about the story is overdone.. everything. No real plot twists that are shockers or anything that makes you go "wow!".

in DA2, the story allows something more unique, it allows you to wonder more, etc.

The story isn't amazing obviously, it's about as average as DA:O's is, the difference is, at least in DA2 you aren't gathering X amount of troops to kill Y badguy which has been done countless times and is a pure bore. It's at least something newish and interesting.

You said the main part of the storyline was killing the Archdemon, which you have no idea how to actually do until in the end. If you were talking about hiring the armies then, yes it is very cliche until you actually try to recruit the different factions and they send you on different missions.

[Edli]

Killer3000ad wrote...
 
Should Bioware make a game that would please BG fans but drive away young mainstream/casual gamers and end up selling less? Or make a game that would ****** off most of the old BG but bring in huge sales numbers to impress their overlords at EA? As harsh as it is, the old school D&D/BG fanbase are a dying breed and if I were looking to make huge sales figures, the latter option is much harshly, the proper logical one.

That's what EA thinks too but imo we may have a surprise with DA2. I think it will sell less. Complex games do sell no matter what some may think.

Modifié par Edli, 12 mars 2011 - 02:03 .

[uberdowzen]

Seb Hanlon wrote...

~70% (to a measly 30%) is barely the majority?

spam image removed.

Why would you want to post well thought out arguments when you could just post a picture of a tin of meat?

70% is a majority but only barely. Imagine a country of 100 million people had an election, 70% of the people vote for one party and 30% for another. Should those 30 million people have their votes ignored because they're in a minority? What if the newly elected government came out and said that basically everyone voted for them? 70% is still quite a bit lower than the 90% landslide you provided. Still without a source I might add. And to be honest have you actually read the reviews on Metacritc? There's one for Company of Heroes which gives it a score of one because it's not Call of Duty 2.

[WalkenOwns]

Rushed? Maybe

Disaster? No

[Anathemic]

tez19 wrote...
I have much more important things in my life to worry about and stress over but if the people nerdraging do not then i feel sorry for them if DA2 is the major concern in their life.

tez, I told you to stop trolling. Keep it up and you'll spark another argument, with me. And I think we both know who will be the victor.

[Kendaric Varkellen]

To get back to the original topic:

What they should do is having to seperate DA product lines, one following the tradition of DA:O and the second one being more like DA2 (though with serious improvements).
Everything else is highly likely to disappoint large segments of the fanbase. The community is split right now and there's little Bioware can do to unite the factions.

[Mage One]

I don't agree. My biggest criticism over the game actually has nothing to do with the gameplay or story, and while it might seriously affect my desire to buy Bioware games in the future, it is a subject for another thread. As regards the actual content of the game, I think the game implemented many things to fix many broken systems and problems in the first game and did so very well but imperfectly, in places in fact over-zealously. Overall, though, I think it's very solid. I haven't finished it yet, but I certainly plan to, as I'm a decent bit in and greatly enjoying it so far.

[tez19]

Anathemic wrote...

tez19 wrote...
I have much more important things in my life to worry about and stress over but if the people nerdraging do not then i feel sorry for them if DA2 is the major concern in their life.

tez, I told you to stop trolling. Keep it up and you'll spark another argument, with me. And I think we both know who will be the victor.

Away with you.

[_genetix_]

Well, considering yet again the history.

I see DA2 as an expansion (like for example Icewind Dale 2) and they COULD of done 'Baldur's Gate 2: Throne of Bhaal' (expansion) from this game very easy which would of reflect well on community, but as an sequel it's a total disaster for most of people who loves the roots of RPGs Bioware has build.

However, as we have seen in out history and history tends to repeat itself. I believe IF an 'Dragon Age 3' would have a decent map, story and gameplay and they would do TRUE tech. support for 'Dragon Age 2' (MEANING THAT BIOWARE PERSONEL WOULD BE HERE RIGHT NOW telling us that there's some mythical story to come and not try to sell those '***** 5 stars' ratings on their damn 'Dragon Age 2'-pages) this would turn a lot of heads and they could turn an total disaster to something greater.

Will to do this is in company people are just a puppets by the puppet master.

Modifié par _genetix_, 12 mars 2011 - 02:08 .