251 réponses à ce sujet

[shadowsallaround]

Aye....you past the test. Now you all can unban me. Perhaps even some of those servers that I would donate to per month that would cost the same as wow membership.

[SHOVA]

I believe that you will find, that when you earn a ban, its forever. No one has time to deal with trouble makers, let alone spend time unbanning them after they were so distracting the first time. like I posted, you get one shot at a first impression, and from the look of things, you ruined your chances of being taken serious at the PWs you visited, or those PWs that communicate with them.
Multiple PW admins do communicate with each other, and share who is worthy of being banned before they log in. They even share the security to keep them out. Some of this communities top scripters have made the code available to every PW experiencing a problem with griefers, or are looking to stop problems before they happen. This PW admin group shares not only the log in, CD-key, and IP of the griefer, but also the type of griefing done, and what was done to make them go away forever.
Perhaps in the future, you will behave like a respectable player, and not the way you have been banned for.
Good luck to you.

[Dismus]

On the server I am on we have unbanned players after a period of time and after they have spoken to admin.

[ffbj]

I for one believe in second chances although I certainly concur with SHOVA's points about first impressions. Sometimes I think it is good to try to see things from another's point of view. In this case server admins who ban players based on reports from other servers. Their thinking may be that I should not allow this guy/gal in even on the chance that he/she will misbehave based on past behaviors. In other words it's just not worth the angst it may cause.
It's a sad but true fact that it is much more difficult to regain a lost reputation, than it is to establish one. For instance a person steals something and they get the reputation of being a thief, even though they only stole something one time. Or cheated, or lied, etc...
So that person becomes a thief, a cheater, or a liar, even though it was possibly only a momentary lapse and not truely the major part of that persons character. Personally I think this relates to our shared tribal ancestry where certain actions were branded a certain way and members of the community shunned that member who exibited those behaviors, as a way of protecting the community overall from ani-social behaviors and at the same time sending a message to other tribal/community members to avoid those behaviors.

[SHOVA]

While some may like to give a second chance or whatnot, I think the latest round of grief play, has turned the admin community against dealing with it. The list of what player causes problems, has been growing for months. it is now easier for any PW admin to access that list, receive help in the coding set up to block that type of player, and to move on, and have a great time playing NWN. That's the main thing we are talking about here, There are a few players who, only bring annoyance, poor manners, and down right c_rap, to everyone else they come into contact with, once they log in. I certainly do not enjoy "teaching others how to act" nor do I believe I should have to. I know how to behave, play nice, be respectful, and follow whatever rule is set in place by the one hosting. I either agree to those rules, or I log out of that world. Simple, non interfering for those who do want to play there. The idea that anyone should get hand held because they act poor, or allowed back after being an idiot, is simply idiotic. As a parent, When my child acts in appropriately, there are consequences. Sometimes, depending on the action, those consequences are that something is not allowed, available, or usable, anymore. My children, now old enough to have learned that, do not act like they are idiots. They certainly do not disrupt others to get their way, and they certainly would never behave as if there are no consequences for their actions, whether in the real world, or online.

The simple truth, however skewed from my perspective is this, the average age of the people who play NWN, is 30+ that means that the griefers are probably old enough to know better, before they start acting like they don't have any manners. Now, I am sure we have all met idiots out in the real world, the question is, do you still hang around them, or do you avoid them? Do you invite them into your home? Would you invite them back into your home after they had made everyone in your home frustrated, annoyed, angry, and best of all, wanting to leave to get away from them? If you answered No, then why would you waste time asking them back into a game that is suppose to be fun? That makes no sense at all.

[shadowsallaround]

Shova? You are indeed correct and sometimes we do need ban because we make silly billies, but forever?

[SHOVA]

try walking into a store and spewing the same things your linked posts say. See if you are not thrown out, and never allowed back. In some countries, and even cities in the USA, you would be arrested for disturbing the peace, let alone held for a psych evaluation. Why would anyone want to deal with anyone who spouts disruptive crap? Why remove the ban from them, when they have already shown they can't play nice. Had you done that on my PW, it would have resulted in an instant ban, as well as a complaint to your IP. Because of the last griefer storm that came through NWN online play a few months ago, I have already banned you from mine, the complaint by another admin, and the linked rantings was more than enough reason . There is no way I would put up with that level of disrespect from anyone, let alone expose my players to it. So in answer your question, yes forever.
Good luck with your future play.

[shadowsallaround]

I don't have good people skills. I also drink a lot. I do feel depressed to. Never do I mean to hurt you or others.

[kalbaern]

ffbj wrote...

I for one believe in second chances although I certainly concur with SHOVA's points about first impressions. Sometimes I think it is good to try to see things from another's point of view. In this case server admins who ban players based on reports from other servers. Their thinking may be that I should not allow this guy/gal in even on the chance that he/she will misbehave based on past behaviors. In other words it's just not worth the angst it may cause.
It's a sad but true fact that it is much more difficult to regain a lost reputation, than it is to establish one. For instance a person steals something and they get the reputation of being a thief, even though they only stole something one time. Or cheated, or lied, etc...
So that person becomes a thief, a cheater, or a liar, even though it was possibly only a momentary lapse and not truely the major part of that persons character. Personally I think this relates to our shared tribal ancestry where certain actions were branded a certain way and members of the community shunned that member who exibited those behaviors, as a way of protecting the community overall from ani-social behaviors and at the same time sending a message to other tribal/community members to avoid those behaviors.

As part of the "group" that shares information with other PWs I'd like to point out that only verified griefers are banned en masse by us. If a player has a dispute with fellow players, DMs or an Admin on one PW, they aren't likely going to be banned automatically elsewhere for that. We all realise that often personalities clash and that a player that gets banned by one or more PWs can still likely find a nice home somewhere else where temperments and play styles better suit them. In the case of "shadowsallaround", he's certainly met that criteria on several PWs and earned bans on them.
 
He's also met our group's general definition of "griefing" as well. You don't need to just login and PK folk and logout to be a griefer. Anything that disrupts the  playing of others can qualify. So when he's logged in to servers allowing shouts and set forth his streams of innane babbling until a DM boots him, he was griefing. When his PCs show up in a "starting town" and run around naked swinging an axe and spewing babble and random obscenities, he's griefing. That he does this on any server he can get on, sets it as a pattern and eventually ... many of us will or have banned him preemptively. In most cases, DMs on several PWs have even first tried to talk to him and pointed him to their Rules of Play and explained or attempted to explain the "whys" and "why nots" of things there only to be met with him ignoring them and continueing his disruptions aimed towards players at large. His arguements against DMs in general are specious as he seeks to disrupt other players directly. How does targetting fellow players remedy his supposed past wrongs done by DMs elsewhere anyhow? It doesn't. One reaps what they sow and "shadowsallaround" is now sowing a bumper crop of obscurity for his actions.

Hopefully, he'll take the advice of others here and find a place where he's not yet known and login to play and enjoy the world. Somehow I doubt he will.

Modifié par kalbaern, 12 octobre 2011 - 07:51 .

[SHOVA]

shadowsallaround wrote...

I don't have good people skills. I also drink a lot. I do feel depressed to. Never do I mean to hurt you or others.

You, like everyone else, are responsible for your own actions, your own speech, and how you treat others. If you drink to much, then do not log in, just as you shouldn't drive while drunk. If your people skills are a problem, try listening to others and acting within what they say, especially a DM. Most PWs are nice enough to post the rules to play on them where you first log into them, Try reading them before you do anything else. If you have depression, seek help from a professional. Whatever your intention was, and it is hard to justify that it was not meant to hurt anyone, It was taken as a problem worth banning for. Obviously it was taken that way on more than one PW. Try changing how you play, you might enjoy the game more, and you might be allowed to remain on more PWs. However, on mine, you are not welcome. You probably have been banned forever from others too, I can not speak for them. 

[ehye_khandee]

SHOVA wrote...

The list of what player causes problems, has been growing for months. it is now easier for any PW admin to access that list, receive help in the coding set up to block that type of player,

Absolutely untrue. Unfounded rumors and political sniping have grossly limited access to the lists. Favoritism, grudges among admins and flat out arbitrary bad ADMIN work are at the root of it. So sad some people operate under the premise that they are the ONLY person in the world with cancer. *shrugs*

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

[SHOVA]

ehye_khandee wrote...

SHOVA wrote...

The list of what player causes problems, has been growing for months. it is now easier for any PW admin to access that list, receive help in the coding set up to block that type of player,

Absolutely untrue. Unfounded rumors and political sniping have grossly limited access to the lists. Favoritism, grudges among admins and flat out arbitrary bad ADMIN work are at the root of it. So sad some people operate under the premise that they are the ONLY person in the world with cancer. *shrugs*

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

Correction, the list is shared to everyone except him. His actions, speech and attitude got him banned from the group. However if he had maintained any level of relationship with any of the members, they probably would have passed the list to him, even though the group decieded they did not wish to listen to his one answer for everything. On a personal note, calling up the members personal struggle, is lower than low. You should be ashamed.

[Hellfire_RWS]

ehye_khandee wrote...
Absolutely untrue. Unfounded rumors and political sniping have grossly limited access to the lists. Favoritism, grudges among admins and flat out arbitrary bad ADMIN work are at the root of it.

Be well. Game on.

GM_ODA

If thats how they treat each other, imagine how they treat their players. 

[SHOVA]

Hellfire_RWS wrote...

ehye_khandee wrote...
Absolutely untrue. Unfounded rumors and political sniping have grossly limited access to the lists. Favoritism, grudges among admins and flat out arbitrary bad ADMIN work are at the root of it.

Be well. Game on.

GM_ODA

If thats how they treat each other, imagine how they treat their players. 

Rather than just accepting one side or the other of what happened to warrent this persons removal of the Admin group, you can of course request the transcripts from the conversations, e-mails and posts from the group. here: http://www.talesofthesilvermarches.com
Be sure to make the request from TSM Junkie. While he is busy with his real life, He does make the time when he can. You can read for yourself who was being nasty, immature, and down right counter productive to the group, and its focus. 

[Hellfire_RWS]

SHOVA wrote...

Hellfire_RWS wrote...

ehye_khandee wrote...
Absolutely untrue. Unfounded rumors and political sniping have grossly limited access to the lists. Favoritism, grudges among admins and flat out arbitrary bad ADMIN work are at the root of it.

Be well. Game on.

GM_ODA

If thats how they treat each other, imagine how they treat their players. 

Rather than just accepting one side or the other of what happened to warrent this persons removal of the Admin group, you can of course request the transcripts from the conversations, e-mails and posts from the group. here: http://www.talesofthesilvermarches.com
Be sure to make the request from TSM Junkie. While he is busy with his real life, He does make the time when he can. You can read for yourself who was being nasty, immature, and down right counter productive to the group, and its focus. 

Honest question.  Is there a place a banned player can go and see the complaints against them so he can try and defend him/her self? 

I would hate to think its just a bunch of admins getting together with whatever evidence they want to present, and it being taken as gospel.

[SHOVA]

The short answer, Not to my knowledge.
However, every admin that I have ever dealt with, Has posted on their own PW forums the how and why someone was banned. In the case of the Admin group mentioned, the group was formed in response to this group: http://support.probo...&page=1#4384533
Please note this link is not to the actual board for the group, that board was suspended.
Some PWs actually send e-mail to all players registered, when a ban happens, why it happened, and what to do to rectify any problems from the offending player.

For the most part, the list of player info that deserves a ban, is not taken lightly. Those who log in with haked characters, and start killing regular players, are added without question.
Those that log in, start arguments with the staff, players, and are "blatantly and annoyingly rude to the point that it interrupts game play for others" Are added. Those that log in, and start spewing how their PW is better, and everyone should go try it, are also added to the list. Automatic ban, or being added because someone is not liked, Is not what the group is about.
The actual list, is just a list. The individual PW admins add it, or not at their discretion.
The list contains the info for the player, and what they were doing that caused the problem.

In the case of ehye_khandee, he was removed from the Admin group, because he was detracting from it. his personal confrontations did come into play, but his removal was voted on by the group. Once that decision was reached, the group returned to its mission.

Lately the group has been non active. The coding from it has helped immensely. The griefing group leading member has also probably lost his ISP.

As an Admin, I realize that some player is probably not going to fit into the PW style at the first log in. Any Admin with half a brain knows, and expects that. We do however expect certain things, respectful conversation. Fair play for everyone, and of course a honest attempt at following the rules laid out for that PW. Sometimes as a admin you get someone who doesn’t respond well with “we don’t allow that” Sometimes the outcome is far worse than the actual infraction of the server rules. Usually a temporary ban for “I do not agree and can’t relay that without being ugly” happens. That is usually done so the admin can return to playing/admining of those that do want to be there. Sometimes the player can not stop acting Ugly, and gets the lifetime ban. The goal of most Admins is to expand their player base, and to make the time spent by all fun, including the admins. Its only (for most of them), when dealing with problem players ends the fun for everyone, that the offending player is removed. You can of course run into exceptions, and as a veteran player of NWN, those PWs that do this, are empty.

[ffbj]

Maybe it would be interesting to create a server for only banned players from the list. Any other player would not be allowed there. It might be fun. It's sort of tongue in cheek but something to consider. So then they could all misbehave, rant, kill each-other etc..With the stipulation that no-one could ever be banned from the sever for banned players.
SHOVA thanks for taking the time to post all that useful information.
For sshallaround: You do know that drinking only adds to depression.  I know it's a difficult problem and I am not making light of your difficulties, just hoping you get better.

Modifié par ffbj, 12 octobre 2011 - 11:58 .

[SHOVA]

Anytime ffbj. As for making a server, I would say any hosted mod from the vault would work fine. I have no intention of hosting it, but there is nothing stopping the banned players from doing so.

One additional tidbit, out of the list of Greifers, it became clear that Most of the log-ins, were actually the same few people.

[ehye_khandee]

SHOVA wrote...

Correction, the list is shared to everyone except him. His actions, speech and attitude got him banned from the group. However if he had maintained any level of relationship with any of the members, they probably would have passed the list to him, even though the group decieded they did not wish to listen to his one answer for everything. On a personal note, calling up the members personal struggle, is lower than low. You should be ashamed.

LIES. I broke NO posted rule, if you feel otherwise, prove it. Here you advocate exclusion and would kill the messenger. Nice job. I see by your italicized (my italics) text you too believe that that one person is the only one in the world with cancer? You continue to fail to see the point I made, we were talking of Sopheclese after all, who is NOT the worlds paramount philosopher (else he'd be the last).

The point was made by another, and shown in their sig file here online, that Sophy stated that we are the source and cause of our own problems. I pointed out that that would NOT float with facts in many cases; point in fact, ask any cancer patient. THAT and thin skin of persons who think they are a walking bullseye are the cause of your rash of exclusionary tactics.

SAD that the group thinks themselves so flawless here.

Please do continue with your Self-Delusional Club meetings. I still stand by what I said. If it was so awful, post it.

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

[ehye_khandee]

SHOVA wrote...

Rather than just accepting one side or the other of what happened to warrent this persons removal of the Admin group, you can of course request the transcripts from the conversations, e-mails and posts from the group. here: http://www.talesofthesilvermarches.com
Be sure to make the request from TSM Junkie. While he is busy with his real life, He does make the time when he can. You can read for yourself who was being nasty, immature, and down right counter productive to the group, and its focus. 

What a JOKE. I've repeatedly suggested they be posted, along with the rules and the indication of which rule I broke. Fact is, I had an opinion that a few VOCAL CRITICS did not share and they had a pouty fit declaring they would leave if I was not banned. The ADMIN caved, making their forum a popularity contest and nothing else.

I directly messaged TSM DUDE and all they had was accusations that I was picking on them (the admin) when clearly I was not.

Facts are facts, show us what you got.

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

[ehye_khandee]

SHOVA wrote...

In the case of ehye_khandee, he was removed from the Admin group, because he was detracting from it. his personal confrontations did come into play, but his removal was voted on by the group. Once that decision was reached, the group returned to its mission.

Lately the group has been non active. The coding from it has helped immensely. The griefing group leading member has also probably lost his ISP.

More lies.

They kicked me out because they did not like my statements of fact (I was not having problems with griefers at that time - my security was functional, the group broke their own posted rules by letting NON ADMINS in and possibly opening the door to moles, based on this I was not discussing details).

TSM DUDE claimed to have made the decision first because I broke the rules but would not pony up with the rule I had broken. Then claimed I was banned because five members complained about me (making membership a popularity contest and nothing more). Now you claim you all voted on it. Why don't you lie about something more? You are on a roll.

More, this group accused ME of being one of the griefers. I'm still here, still online. And NEVER a member of the problem group.

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

[Lightfoot8]

ehye_khandee you have by one big problem, ego. When someone does not agree with you, you go into rants like the one above. It is simply counterproductive and get in the way of anything getting done. If there security is not as great as yours and they missed out on your expert input, count it as there loss and let it go. But with rants like the one above, I would have banned you also, just so there would be a chance to get something accomplished.

[kalbaern]

ehye_khandee wrote...

More lies.

They kicked me out because they did not like my statements of fact (I was not having problems with griefers at that time - my security was functional, the group broke their own posted rules by letting NON ADMINS in and possibly opening the door to moles, based on this I was not discussing details).

TSM DUDE claimed to have made the decision first because I broke the rules but would not pony up with the rule I had broken. Then claimed I was banned because five members complained about me (making membership a popularity contest and nothing more). Now you claim you all voted on it. Why don't you lie about something more? You are on a roll.

More, this group accused ME of being one of the griefers. I'm still here, still online. And NEVER a member of the problem group.

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

1) You were removed from the group because your only input was "Use a Linux Server and not Windows" and further, you constantly belittled any other suggestions. In short, you we're adding nothing productive to discussions and becoming a troll. It wasn't that any of us disagreed with you either. It was your belitlling tone and the refusal to accept that some PW Hosts/Admins couldn't convert to Linux. Some simply can't afford it, some simply are uncomfortable with the idea of using a platform they know nothing about and some folks just hate change. So our group provided the best possible solutions we could to meet as many of each others personal needs. The core difference being, the rest of saw no reason not to compromise if that's what another PW was requesting.

2) TSM Dude had indeed recieved several complaints from other in our group. We were actually on Skype together chatting when the decision to remove you was made. Yes, he'd asked me and I'd initially suggested he merely warn you instead. He pasted a link to your then latest post ... and I changed my mind and agreed with him and others that since you had nothing productive to offer and were becoming a mere troll that your absense was likely best.

3) After removing you from the Forum, TSM Dude did PM everyone en masse to let them know and see if anyone thought removal too harsh of an option. Out of twenty-some folks, no one responded that you should be let back in.

4) The rule you broke was blantant trolling. Was it posted? No. Does forum etiquette on a forum whose members are mainly PW Admins really need such or shouldn't it just be common sense?

5) No one outed you. No one came here or to other forums to bad mouth you. You were simply removed. It was you that began attacking the group at large after.

6) Its not in anyway a "popularity" contest you lost. You lost the "civility" contest. Many of us in this group have apposing viewpoints and even dislikes for each other. We collectively set any issues aside though and stood together. All but one of us that is. You. You were banned from a forum you continually claimed you didn't need as your server was immune anyhow. Get over it already.

7) Our group never claimed you were one of the "NWN Greifers". Some may have alluded that your harrassment here was just as bad, but no one ever claimed you were one of them.

8) True, we not only allowed a few "Non-Admins" to join, we invited them to do so. They were all individuals that were well vetted and longstanding contributors to the NWN Community at large. No "rule" was broken. A rule was ammended to make exceptions for a few rare cases where the individuals invited would be an asset to both our group and the community as a whole.

Lastly, please drop the "cancer" comments. Its beneath you or so I'd hope. TSM Dude has left the NWN Community already anyhow. "His" was endstage and we're not likely to hear more.

[Baaleos]

Question - Is there some sort of shared List of Griefing Players, that PW Owners can apply to get access to?

I apologize for coming to the conversation late, and not knowing the gist of the topic.
All I see above, is people talking about an Admin group - is this an Admin group on another forum, for a single PW, or is it a group for Admins of all PW's?

[Lightfoot8]

Baaleos wrote...

Question - Is there some sort of shared List of Griefing Players, that PW Owners can apply to get access to?

I apologize for coming to the conversation late, and not knowing the gist of the topic.
All I see above, is people talking about an Admin group - is this an Admin group on another forum, for a single PW, or is it a group for Admins of all PW's?

TSMDude wrote...

We all know there is some serious trolls out there lately. As we have been trading our griefer ban list with 2 other servers we finally decided to make it a more of a Community approach.

Along with four other servers we will be making a special section on our forums for other servers to add thier griefer bans to share the cd key codes of these trolls and try and help one another out.

Any admin is more than welcome to join and this board will be for Admins only. Logging in with corruptted PCs to bog down other servers is getting crappy serious and I think it is time we all did our part to help one another out.

If you are intrested in joining this Admin list let us know or join our forums with the name of your server and link in your signature so I can verify your the admin there.

(TSMAdmin or FRCAdmin or WSIAdmin or FRSAdmin or whatever your server is called.)

The White Rabbit scurries forth..."