267 réponses à ce sujet

[White_Buffalo94]

I think the old lady with the scary laugh is Flemeth and "He who will rise" is the OGB. We won't play as the OGB in DAIII of course. That would limit our choice of character to not just human (which I don't mind) to just a male, as he is always called "son" and "he"

Bring on DAIII!

[Heidenreich]

dwinning wrote...

My theory is that the Maker is Dread Wolf.  While both are said to have locked away "Old Gods" for different reasons - the Dread Wolf's seeming more nefarious - if you take into accout that the Chant of Light is told from the perspective of the Maker's followers while the elves' version is not, it starts to seem like the chant is the Maker covering his tracks for having betrayed and imprisoned the Old Gods. 

The basics.  The Tevinter worship the Old Gods.  According to the Chantry, the Old Gods beckoned the Tevinters to usurp the Maker's throne by invading and defiling the Golden City of the Maker. The Maker had created the Golden City as a heaven for his followers, and warned against coming to the aid of the old gods:

The Old Gods will call to you,
From their ancient prisons they will sing.
Dragons with wicked eyes and wicked hearts,
On blacken'd wings does deceit take flight,
The first of My children, lost to night.
-Silence 3:6, Dissonant Verse

Those Tevinters, attempting to free the old gods they worshipped, somehow became the first darkspawn when they encountered the Maker.  The Maker fled the Golden City which became the infested black city.  From time to time the darkspawn - or whatever descendant of the tevinter remain in the black city - are successful in reaching an old god, and create an archdemon. 

In any event, if the Maker/Wolf's prime concern is to prevent the release of the old gods (and his own comeuppance), and if magic is the link between Thedas and the Fade world where the old gods still reside, it would explain the Chantry's enduring obsession with controlling mages and destroying cultures that refuse to control their mages (tevinter and the dalish).  And now the mages are breaking free across the world.

So when Sandal says, "One day the magic will come back.  All of it. Everyone will be just like
they were. The shadows will part and the skies will open wide. When he
rises, everyone will see" , it sounds to me like the Maker/Wolf is going to have to face the old gods.  A DA3 (or 5 or whenever) that sees a christ-figure son/embodiment of the Maker/Wolf grow up, realize who he is and fight recently freed - and pissed - old gods, seem like it would be suitably epic. 

I had a very simmilar thought when Merill was telling that story. The Dread Wolf tricked and locked up the rest of the gods. Then he was the only one left, and 'cast out the first children', aka the fade spirits and demons.Then he turned upon the fledling humans and called himself 'The Maker'.

[CoffeeFrap]

My question is more of why is Bodahn in DA2, I thought he died or something in DA:O so how/why did he wind up in DA2... tho... i'm not far into DA2 so perhaps it'll be explained....

[KenKenpachi]

CoffeeFrap wrote...

My question is more of why is Bodahn in DA2, I thought he died or something in DA:O so how/why did he wind up in DA2... tho... i'm not far into DA2 so perhaps it'll be explained....

He is obviously a golem made by Sandal, who is an old god, some super power being, or the Makers eyes, to throw off the attentions of others to his activities.

*Sandal is caught digging in your bags*  OH DON'T MIND HIM HES RETARDED!

ENCHANTMENT!

*hour later*  That was close but at least the gem of power is mine, now Bodahn fetch me a glass of tea.

Modifié par KenKenpachi, 14 mars 2011 - 08:02 .

[Blacklash93]

gombie wrote...

another thing "Elven legend attributes the failure of their gods to intervene in the fall of Elvhenan to Fen'Harel, who, it is claimed, deceived both the elven pantheon and the Forgotten Ones, trapping the former away in heaven and the latter in the abyss, where they could no longer influence events in the mortal world"

the old god/forgotten ones's minds are trapped in the fade. the fade is the heaven? the maker's golden city is depicted as a heaven by the chantry religion?

theres so many possiblities....

The Old Gods really don't seem like they would be the Forgotten Ones.

First of all, as far as we know there are only 3 Forgotten Ones. They're named in the Fen'Harel codex entry.

And the Old Gods were sleeping underneath the earth long before Tevinter was established and Arlathan fell, while the Elven Pantheon and Forgotten Ones were trapped only recently before that.

[KenKenpachi]

Blacklash93 wrote...

gombie wrote...

another thing "Elven legend attributes the failure of their gods to intervene in the fall of Elvhenan to Fen'Harel, who, it is claimed, deceived both the elven pantheon and the Forgotten Ones, trapping the former away in heaven and the latter in the abyss, where they could no longer influence events in the mortal world"

the old god/forgotten ones's minds are trapped in the fade. the fade is the heaven? the maker's golden city is depicted as a heaven by the chantry religion?

theres so many possiblities....

The Old Gods really don't seem like they would be the Forgotten Ones.

First of all, as far as we know there are only 3 Forgotten Ones. They're named in the Fen'Harel codex entry.

And the Old Gods were sleeping underneath the earth long before Tevinter was established and Arlathan fell, while the Elven Pantheon and Forgotten Ones were trapped only recently before that.

 Hmm so could he be one of the Forgotten ones? Or even the Creators as they are called. Or at least have a connection to them?

[Foop DK]

I don't care who Sandal is, as long as he keeps being awesome.

Seriously, in Dragon Age 3, you should be playing as Sandal, saving the world from the Maker or some awesome ****, while having all of Thedas' hot women lining up to have sex with you.

And Flemeth.. Old God? Could be, perhaps different from the other "old gods (who could just be "higher than high dragons"-dragons that the darkspawn like, and not actually gods)".
She damn powerful that's for sure. "Luckily" i don't think she's evil.. just an "the-end-justifies-the-means" type of entity.

Modifié par Foop DK, 14 mars 2011 - 09:10 .

[KenKenpachi]

Foop DK wrote...

I don't care who Sandal is, as long as he keeps being awesome.

Seriously, in Dragon Age 3, you should be playing as Sandal, saving the world from the Maker or some awesome ****, while having all of Thedas' hot women lining up to have sex with you.

This. Someone make a sig or fan club for this.

[screamin_jesus]

Medivan wrote...

mrsph wrote...

He mentions Flemeth watches him sleep. Only he calls her "the scary lady"

That's my thoughts as well!! Also remember when Varric tells the Seeker that someone was sent with the Champion "in a manner of speaking" after the Witch of the Wilds helped him get out of Lothering?  I'm really starting to think Sandal is working FOR her.

Fairly sure he meant that the witch was in the amulet.

[JamesX]

Medivan wrote...

That's my thoughts as well!! Also remember when Varric tells the Seeker that someone was sent with the Champion "in a manner of speaking" after the Witch of the Wilds helped him get out of Lothering?  I'm really starting to think Sandal is working FOR her.

The matter of speaking is in referrence to the Amulet that Fragment of Flemmeth is hiding in.

[gombie]

i reckon, that because the next dragon age is set in orlais, and the maker comes and messes everything up, and its up to the Player character to unite the lands and convince the chantry to join them. like denerim to join the hero in DA:O.

Hero of Ferelden.
Champion of Kirkwall
Slayer of God(s)

bring back baldur's gate 2 epicness... wait a minute.. BG was about the son of the bhaal and you become a god (or can)... so possibly you are morrigan's child and you find out you have awesome powers for some epic god slaying. and ofcourse having darkspawn blood you can have your own darkspawn army.

Modifié par gombie, 14 mars 2011 - 10:35 .

[Nimander]

All I can say is unlike some of the above posters, I hope they don't push elves 'up' too much. I kind of want them to be wrong, just like humans are wrong, dwarves are wrong, and so on. Their culture right now isn't that great, the Dalish are ****s like everyone else. Sure it's good for -them- but they aren't very nice to outsiders and some of their beliefs about the history read like whining. 'It was HUMANITY'S FAULT WE LOST OUR IMMORTALITY! WHINE!' and so on.

I kinda want them to be wrong, and dwarves to be wrong, and humans to be wrong, and so forth. In a cohesive manner.

Like, oh, the elves are responsible for their loss of immortality (like they already are for their being oppressed, I mean, pissing off your neighbors by not helping them in a huge war isn't a good way to keep good neighbors -- and no, I'm not validating slavery.). the dwarves are responsible for the darkspawn. And the entire Chantry religion is based on a Blood Mage who thought she talked to the Maker, but really didn't.

[Conora Lance]

Chances are people that you'll probably be the old god spirit you save in DAO, if you don't make the deal with Morrigan then perhaps Alistair does or she just finds a different way to capture it's soul.

[KenKenpachi]

Conora Lance wrote...

Chances are people that you'll probably be the old god spirit you save in DAO, if you don't make the deal with Morrigan then perhaps Alistair does or she just finds a different way to capture it's soul.

I think pretty much it always says shes with child at the end, so maybe she had a guard knock her up, dunno. But I doubt it'll be the god child unless he grows up super fast or everyone is left old, say you have the Warden, Hawke, and Sandal in your party. Or such.

[Zalocx]

Conora Lance wrote...

Chances are people that you'll probably be the old god spirit you save in DAO, if you don't make the deal with Morrigan then perhaps Alistair does or she just finds a different way to capture it's soul.

Unless you agree to the Ritual there is no OGB, because if you don't agree to the ritual someone dies killing the Archdemon meaning the dragon's soul was destroyed along with the Warden's. If Morrigan found someone else to do the ritual with no one would have died at the final battle. yet either you or Alister or Logain obviously do so. . . no God Baby

[Bryy_Miller]

So now we have at least TWO references to a "Shadow" coming to town.

[IronVanguard]

Crazy stuff. I'm still trying to figure how the ancient thiag fits into this. After everything that you saw down there, and how the idol tied into the final fight, it's got to mean something.

[iLark xD]

"Enchanment? Enchantment!" (:
The words of the first Dwarven-Mage

[arega333]

sandal is awesome. my favorite character.

[kedcoleman]

My 2 cents: The Dread Wolf, and by extension the Elven pantheon, is based loosely off of Norse mythos, specifically Loki. The similarities are not insignificant: both are Trickster figures, both connected to the two opposing factions (the Wolf a friend to the elven Gods and the Forgotten alike, Loki the progeny of Aesir and Jotunn), both connected to wolf imagery (Loki being he father of Fenrir, the Wolf being, well, the Dread Wolf).

What greater trick could the Dread Wolf pull off than to convince the world that he was the all-powerful Maker, the sole Divine being of the world after he'd tricked all the other powers into locking themselves away. So he finds a slave, taken from an oppressed barbarian people and convinces her she is a prophet, a messiah - if she only spreads the word of his greatness.

The Chantry, founded in the footsteps of Andraste, teaches magic is sinful, blood magic especially so. Why is this? Throughout the past, for centuries - millenia - magic was used by all the peoples of Thedas. Some less altruistically than others. The elves had always been magical. I believe the dwarves were, too. Humans always had magic users. Magic, in itself, is not evil, clearly. This designation of magic as a sin is a means of control. The Chantry, unknowingly influenced by the Dread Wolf's desire for power and control, oppresses whatever mortals can challenge his power.

Blood magic is especially dangerous to the Wolf. Several times it's been expressed how much more powerful blood magic is than vanilla magic. That it would take many mages, or a mountain of lyrium to complete rituals that a single blood mage could accomplish. Not to mention the implied abilities of blood mages to dominate minds. For a lone god trying to dominate the wills of an entire world, well, that could be a problem.

So he tricks the humans into thinking he's the only god, "the Maker", and that everyone that could challenge him is an evil sinner by birth, always on the verge of Abomination. Even the mages themselves believe these tricks.

And what of the Fade? Did the Wolf himself sunder the Fade and the physical world? It seems to be implied that at some point in the distant past the two coexisted more deeply and were sundered with the Veil at some point. This is the implication, too, of Sandal's quote, that the magic will return, that the skies will part. I don't think the gods or the Forgotten will return, necessarily. They were trapped somewhere outside the world and the Fade. I wonder, though...everything int he Fade is a reflection of something in the world. The thoughts and dreams of people become places and things there. Emotions and desires become spirits, whether benevolent or malicious. I wonder what the Black City reflects.

With the Norse parallels of mythology, to go back to my original tangent, comes the promise of Ragnarok. This concept seems to be brought out, again, in Sandal's speech. It's very ominous, foretelling of something cataclysmic to come.

[KenKenpachi]

kedcoleman wrote...

My 2 cents: The Dread Wolf, and by extension the Elven pantheon, is based loosely off of Norse mythos, specifically Loki. The similarities are not insignificant: both are Trickster figures, both connected to the two opposing factions (the Wolf a friend to the elven Gods and the Forgotten alike, Loki the progeny of Aesir and Jotunn), both connected to wolf imagery (Loki being he father of Fenrir, the Wolf being, well, the Dread Wolf).

What greater trick could the Dread Wolf pull off than to convince the world that he was the all-powerful Maker, the sole Divine being of the world after he'd tricked all the other powers into locking themselves away. So he finds a slave, taken from an oppressed barbarian people and convinces her she is a prophet, a messiah - if she only spreads the word of his greatness.

The Chantry, founded in the footsteps of Andraste, teaches magic is sinful, blood magic especially so. Why is this? Throughout the past, for centuries - millenia - magic was used by all the peoples of Thedas. Some less altruistically than others. The elves had always been magical. I believe the dwarves were, too. Humans always had magic users. Magic, in itself, is not evil, clearly. This designation of magic as a sin is a means of control. The Chantry, unknowingly influenced by the Dread Wolf's desire for power and control, oppresses whatever mortals can challenge his power.

Blood magic is especially dangerous to the Wolf. Several times it's been expressed how much more powerful blood magic is than vanilla magic. That it would take many mages, or a mountain of lyrium to complete rituals that a single blood mage could accomplish. Not to mention the implied abilities of blood mages to dominate minds. For a lone god trying to dominate the wills of an entire world, well, that could be a problem.

So he tricks the humans into thinking he's the only god, "the Maker", and that everyone that could challenge him is an evil sinner by birth, always on the verge of Abomination. Even the mages themselves believe these tricks.

And what of the Fade? Did the Wolf himself sunder the Fade and the physical world? It seems to be implied that at some point in the distant past the two coexisted more deeply and were sundered with the Veil at some point. This is the implication, too, of Sandal's quote, that the magic will return, that the skies will part. I don't think the gods or the Forgotten will return, necessarily. They were trapped somewhere outside the world and the Fade. I wonder, though...everything int he Fade is a reflection of something in the world. The thoughts and dreams of people become places and things there. Emotions and desires become spirits, whether benevolent or malicious. I wonder what the Black City reflects.

With the Norse parallels of mythology, to go back to my original tangent, comes the promise of Ragnarok. This concept seems to be brought out, again, in Sandal's speech. It's very ominous, foretelling of something cataclysmic to come.

So basically Thor will come down and smack some frost giants, or Sandal is the eye of Odin...or at least the DA match.

[kedcoleman]

 In my mind, Flemeth embodies both the Loki and Fenrir icons in one being.  She's a shapeshifting trickster with a hidden agenda for ... something.  She is the Dread Wolf.   While we're on the topic of the Wolf, what of the Tevinter?  They were taught blood magic by creatures of the Fade.  By the Wolf, perhaps?  It would be very trickster to create two rival factions at each others throats, both too busy trying to crush the other to really dig into the reality of the scenario, whoever wins beholden to the Dread Wolf.  

What is Sandal, then?

A throwback, the survivor of a dwarven thaig that predates the sundering of the Fade, a dwarf connected to magic still, the sole surviving recipient of ancient knowledge and prophesy of what's to come after.  His connection to the Fade and this prophetic knowledge draws him along to places along the road to ragnarok.  Is he a part of it in some way, or is he simply meant to observe?

[roll20s]

On a related note, the Golum in the abandoned Thaig near Sundermount says something to the effect of "It lies burried underground beneath Orlais". Unfortunately I don't have a convenient save with which to go back an listen to his exact phrasing, but maybe someone else does? It could shed some light on how exactly Orlais figures into Sandol, Flemith, and the return of the Maker.

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

Spartansfan8888 wrote...

Volourn wrote...

"That's my thoughts as well!! Also remember when Varric tells the Seeker that someone was sent with the Champion "in a manner of speaking" after the Witch of the Wilds helped him get out of Lothering? I'm really starting to think Sandal is working FOR her."

I wonder what part Bodhain plays in all this ? Is he just just the merchant-father figure we all have to come and love? Or is he the vessel Sandal's guardian? Or is this just BIO playing with us?

R00fles!

I thought the "person" Flemeth sent with them was Flemeth herself in the amulet?

Yeah, remember she said she had an appointment.  She knew Morrigan would send the Warden after her to kill her, so she put a part of herself in the amulet to allow herself to be resurrected if the Warden killed her.  Basically, when you take the amulet up the mountain, be sure to exhaust all your "Investigate" options with Flemeth... it's very.... enlightening.

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

kedcoleman wrote...

My 2 cents: The Dread Wolf, and by extension the Elven pantheon, is based loosely off of Norse mythos, specifically Loki. The similarities are not insignificant: both are Trickster figures, both connected to the two opposing factions (the Wolf a friend to the elven Gods and the Forgotten alike, Loki the progeny of Aesir and Jotunn), both connected to wolf imagery (Loki being he father of Fenrir, the Wolf being, well, the Dread Wolf).

What greater trick could the Dread Wolf pull off than to convince the world that he was the all-powerful Maker, the sole Divine being of the world after he'd tricked all the other powers into locking themselves away. So he finds a slave, taken from an oppressed barbarian people and convinces her she is a prophet, a messiah - if she only spreads the word of his greatness.

The Chantry, founded in the footsteps of Andraste, teaches magic is sinful, blood magic especially so. Why is this? Throughout the past, for centuries - millenia - magic was used by all the peoples of Thedas. Some less altruistically than others. The elves had always been magical. I believe the dwarves were, too. Humans always had magic users. Magic, in itself, is not evil, clearly. This designation of magic as a sin is a means of control. The Chantry, unknowingly influenced by the Dread Wolf's desire for power and control, oppresses whatever mortals can challenge his power.

Blood magic is especially dangerous to the Wolf. Several times it's been expressed how much more powerful blood magic is than vanilla magic. That it would take many mages, or a mountain of lyrium to complete rituals that a single blood mage could accomplish. Not to mention the implied abilities of blood mages to dominate minds. For a lone god trying to dominate the wills of an entire world, well, that could be a problem.

So he tricks the humans into thinking he's the only god, "the Maker", and that everyone that could challenge him is an evil sinner by birth, always on the verge of Abomination. Even the mages themselves believe these tricks.

And what of the Fade? Did the Wolf himself sunder the Fade and the physical world? It seems to be implied that at some point in the distant past the two coexisted more deeply and were sundered with the Veil at some point. This is the implication, too, of Sandal's quote, that the magic will return, that the skies will part. I don't think the gods or the Forgotten will return, necessarily. They were trapped somewhere outside the world and the Fade. I wonder, though...everything int he Fade is a reflection of something in the world. The thoughts and dreams of people become places and things there. Emotions and desires become spirits, whether benevolent or malicious. I wonder what the Black City reflects.

With the Norse parallels of mythology, to go back to my original tangent, comes the promise of Ragnarok. This concept seems to be brought out, again, in Sandal's speech. It's very ominous, foretelling of something cataclysmic to come.

Damn, I happen to be a huge fan of Norse Mythology, so your correlations intrigue me very much.