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[LobselVith8]

How is the Grand Cleric reasonable? She's doing nothing to stop the violence that is erupting between the mages and the Templar Order, screamin_jesus. While cglasglow can condemn Anders for having a Spirit inside him, what's the excuse for the group of templars who did nothing while one of their own said he would rape that same mage girl when she was made tranquil because she would have no will to resist? Why should I not want Anders to end an institution that steals people's humanity and agency from them to the point Karl said he didn't want to be a "Templar puppet" anymore? I find it odd how people damn Anders for putting an end to the slavery of mages, because that's exactly what happened in the end. The Circles broke free from the Chantry.

[Zalocx]

LobselVith8 wrote...

How is the Grand Cleric reasonable? She's doing nothing to stop the violence that is erupting between the mages and the Templar Order, screamin_jesus. While cglasglow can condemn Anders for having a Spirit inside him, what's the excuse for the group of templars who did nothing while one of their own said he would rape that same mage girl when she was made tranquil because she would have no will to resist? Why should I not want Anders to end an institution that steals people's humanity and agency from them to the point Karl said he didn't want to be a "Templar puppet" anymore? I find it odd how people damn Anders for putting an end to the slavery of mages, because that's exactly what happened in the end. The Circles broke free from the Chantry.

And a ton of them automatically became abominations and resorted to blood magic thus totally proving the Templar's point that mages without overseers turn into monsters. All after a madman blew up a house of worship so that the VERY PEOPLE WHO HE WANTED TO PROTECT would face MORE persecution forcing them to fight back instead to find another more diplomatic way.

And you love going on and on about "Slavery this and slavery that". What do you think the primary use of Blood Magic is?
Mind Control, the most absolute form of of slavery, where the victim can't even control his thoughts or his own body. When the opressed have to turn into worse monsters than their opressors to gain their freedom, they lose the moral high ground

[Clarence2679]

I did when I saw what he did That just made me determine to kill him every time.

[LobselVith8]

You forgot the ignore the rape, torture, and tranquility of mages by the Templars.... The very thing Anders is trying to stop. In case you missed it, neither the templars nor the mages are wearing white or black hats in DA2. Both groups are are royally frakked, with some good people in both of them. I applaud the creators for giving us such a morally conflicted and ambiguous storyline where events were mired, and there was no real good or evil. You had to make the best judgement you could when neither choice was perfect.

[Harmless Crunch]

I sided with teh mages but had no idea Anders would do such a thing so I killed him........I'll never be able to play Awakening in the same way

[Zalocx]

Trying to stop it by blowing up a place where women who spend their days trying to raise money for Orphans (those two Sisters at the front of the Chantry) is a monstrous act. Meredith was too parinoid and deserved to die for the suffering she caused, Orsino supported a Blood Mage serial killer and decided to turn to magic that is rightfully forbidden and deserved what he got too. Anders committed the mass murder of non-combatants and he deserves to die for that.

Yeah Anders had good intentions in wanting to free the mages but his actions damn him. The Templars also have good intentions in not wanting abominations to run amok and Blood Mages to run around ruling through fear and torture like they did and do in the Imperium, Why can you defend Anders with "but he was trying to end slavery" but don't defend the Templars and Chantry with "but they are trying to protect the public from demons and madmen"?

[Tarisln]

Despite the fact that he was one of my closest friends in the game, that act was too heinous to ever forgive. Anders had to die. For that matter, Bethany's the only thing that kept me from going over to the templars by the end. Though I'm fairly sure I had killed more mages than templars when the smoke finally cleared anyway.

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

LobselVith8 wrote...

You forgot the ignore the rape, torture, and tranquility of mages by the Templars.... The very thing Anders is trying to stop. In case you missed it, neither the templars nor the mages are wearing white or black hats in DA2. Both groups are are royally frakked, with some good people in both of them. I applaud the creators for giving us such a morally conflicted and ambiguous storyline where events were mired, and there was no real good or evil. You had to make the best judgement you could when neither choice was perfect.

While both sides are "not wearing white and black hats", the differences in the scope of morality are staggering. Raping, torturing, tranquilizing mages pales in comparison to virtually every mage being a crazed blood mage abomination raining death and destruction and worse on the people of Fereldan. Outside of Bethany and Feyndrial, every single mage in the game ends up being a psychopath out for power/revenge/blood magic. EVERY SINGLE ONE. 

It's mind blowing really that I defended them at all.

If it's a question of the lesser of two evils, the choice should be clear to anyone who isn't stuck on dictionary definitions of the words involved, or has spent far too much time debating academic concepts believing in theoretical utopian life.

As for the topic, I've done all options. Let him go, let him live, kill him. What I haven't tried yet is simply not doing his character quest. I'm assuming the story won't move forward if you don't do it?

And, for the record, I enjoyed killing that heartless bastard greatly. I never liked Anders. Ever. I'm glad it's a character I never liked who's going to go down in the history books as the mass murderer who started Armageddon. 

On a totally different note, Cullen surprised me greatly. Talk about a character that grew up between Origins and DA 2. I was expecting him to be the psychopath deranged extremist. Not girly boy kitty loving Anders.

[ObserverStatus]

I killed him, but after losing in that fight on the docks with an army of shades a blood mage and a pride demon a few times, I decided to load and let him live.

[Tarisln]

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

On a totally different note, Cullen surprised me greatly. Talk about a character that grew up between Origins and DA 2. I was expecting him to be the psychopath deranged extremist. Not girly boy kitty loving Anders.

Agreed. After DA:O (and most of DA2), I was very suprised to find myself liking and respecting Cullen by the end.

[Eveangaline]

Killed Anders, sided with the mages. No matter what you think on the circle, Meredith was clearly wackadoo, so I wasn't going to side with her and have her murder a circle full of innocent mages over what Anders did by himself.

[TJPags]

Tarisln wrote...

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

On a totally different note, Cullen surprised me greatly. Talk about a character that grew up between Origins and DA 2. I was expecting him to be the psychopath deranged extremist. Not girly boy kitty loving Anders.

Agreed. After DA:O (and most of DA2), I was very suprised to find myself liking and respecting Cullen by the end.

This was indeed a surprise.

I'd never played a DAO mage origin, so I only knew him from the Circle Tower quest, but he sure seemed to have gone off the deep end at the end of that.

In this game, though, he seemed like someone serious about their job, but not hateful or hurtful.  A really good guy.

I'm glad I didn't have to kill him in the final battle.

[Dean_the_Young]

LobselVith8 wrote...

You forgot the ignore the rape, torture, and tranquility of mages by the Templars....

Templar.

Singular, not plural.

You keep bringing up the abuse and depravity of one Templar, breaking the Templars own rules, as the sins of a thousand years of an institutuion, even though there's nothing to suggest the Templars as a whole have spent the last thousand years making everyone they don't like tranquil, raping them, and applying torture.

Except, it's not. Certainly nothing in Origins or Awakening ever supported it, and the abuses by that Templar were illegal and unjustified by the Templars themselves.

[Zalocx]

TJPags wrote...

Tarisln wrote...

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

On a totally different note, Cullen surprised me greatly. Talk about a character that grew up between Origins and DA 2. I was expecting him to be the psychopath deranged extremist. Not girly boy kitty loving Anders.

Agreed. After DA:O (and most of DA2), I was very suprised to find myself liking and respecting Cullen by the end.

This was indeed a surprise.

I'd never played a DAO mage origin, so I only knew him from the Circle Tower quest, but he sure seemed to have gone off the deep end at the end of that.

In this game, though, he seemed like someone serious about their job, but not hateful or hurtful.  A really good guy.

I'm glad I didn't have to kill him in the final battle.

In the mage Origin he was all about smiley faces and co-operation and how Templars and mages should work together for a better future. And had an obvious crush on Female Mage.

Then the whole thing with Uldred broke his idealism HARD

[Korsriddare]

Zalocx wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Tarisln wrote...

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

On a totally different note, Cullen surprised me greatly. Talk about a character that grew up between Origins and DA 2. I was expecting him to be the psychopath deranged extremist. Not girly boy kitty loving Anders.

Agreed. After DA:O (and most of DA2), I was very suprised to find myself liking and respecting Cullen by the end.

This was indeed a surprise.

I'd never played a DAO mage origin, so I only knew him from the Circle Tower quest, but he sure seemed to have gone off the deep end at the end of that.

In this game, though, he seemed like someone serious about their job, but not hateful or hurtful.  A really good guy.

I'm glad I didn't have to kill him in the final battle.

In the mage Origin he was all about smiley faces and co-operation and how Templars and mages should work together for a better future. And had an obvious crush on Female Mage.

Then the whole thing with Uldred broke his idealism HARD

Interestingly though, if you side with the Templars, he actually spoke out against the RoA when three mages surrendered and Meredith wanted them killed anyway.

He mentioned how RoA should only be used as a last resort, and the situation with Uldred was worse, but RoA was not called, and in the end how many mages were still saved.

If you choose for the mages to be spared, Cullen would go over Meredith to have them escorted away, with her looking none too happy about it.

[LadyVaJedi]

I saved Anders and in my play through he didn't kill the girl. My mage feHawke was able to talk him down. I understand why he did what he did. The abuse of the mages and the grand cleric didn't stand up to the knight commander at all.

[ashwind]

LobselVith8 wrote...

How is the Grand Cleric reasonable? She's doing nothing to stop the violence that is erupting between the mages and the Templar Order, screamin_jesus. While cglasglow can condemn Anders for having a Spirit inside him, what's the excuse for the group of templars who did nothing while one of their own said he would rape that same mage girl when she was made tranquil because she would have no will to resist? Why should I not want Anders to end an institution that steals people's humanity and agency from them to the point Karl said he didn't want to be a "Templar puppet" anymore? I find it odd how people damn Anders for putting an end to the slavery of mages, because that's exactly what happened in the end. The Circles broke free from the Chantry.

How is she not reasonable. She believes that the differences between Templar and Mages cannot be resolved immediately or within her lifetime, any radical action and ... well we have Anders. Sometimes doing nothing is the best course of action.

If she didnt die, there will be a lot of tension but it would not come to total war. She is the only thing standing against all chaos, between the mage, the templar and possibily the Chantry itself. Her presence alone kept the Templar and Mage in relative order.

Anders killed an innocent and gentle women. He is clearly mad. Executing him is an act of mercy. I like Anders... but he has clearly gone insane.

[LadyVaJedi]

The Grand Cleric was an enabler. She didn't even make any attempt to stop the abuse of the mages.

[Zalocx]

LadyVaJedi wrote...

The Grand Cleric was an enabler. She didn't even make any attempt to stop the abuse of the mages.

And if she mde an attempt Merideth could have cried "Blood Mage Mind Control" in her "less-than-stable" state of mind and then we have an even riskier problem.

The Grand Cleric was trying to calm both sides down gradually without throwing her weight behind one and thus pushing the other to make a desprate rebuttal.

That is good diplomacy, the very mark of an intelligent and grounded mediator.

[Helen0rz]

I wouldve if I wasn't romancing him and wanted to complete the romance for the achievement...GOD i really wanted to kill him. I dont take betrayals like they're nothing

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

And, btw, you got a great sense of how the Grand Cleric was diffusing the situation her own way when she intercedes between Orsino and Meredith. Despite those two both being old and powerful, she treated them both like children and they responded as children do to their mother.

Hopefully Anders will spend eternity in torment for killing such a great person.

Modifié par kjdhgfiliuhwe, 15 mars 2011 - 03:25 .

[Raiil]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You forgot the ignore the rape, torture, and tranquility of mages by the Templars....

Templar.

Singular, not plural.

You keep bringing up the abuse and depravity of one Templar, breaking the Templars own rules, as the sins of a thousand years of an institutuion, even though there's nothing to suggest the Templars as a whole have spent the last thousand years making everyone they don't like tranquil, raping them, and applying torture.

Except, it's not. Certainly nothing in Origins or Awakening ever supported it, and the abuses by that Templar were illegal and unjustified by the Templars themselves.

Depredations done by the Templars are mentioned in several areas. Wynne comments on how some of them aren't quite as nice (I need to redownload the toolkit to get the exact quote), that psycho who was on the young girl was not alone in that room, Anders talks about how he was lucky that he wasn't raped, we have no idea who tranquiled Karl but it's against Chantry law and I didn't see any of the templars boo-hooing over it... If Carver goes to the templars, he mentions how he's not comfortable with some of the extreme measures the templars take. The Chantry had a templar planted into the Wardens to basically harrass Anders according to that character short. An ex-templar is actively aiding apostates in his country because he doesn't agree with what the chantry does, and who would know better? Many templars in Kirkwall are attempting to help mages because they're not okay with their Knight-Commander's actions, whose boss- that's right, the Grand Cleric, head of their Chantry that the templars work for- is doing nothing but occasionally telling her to be a good girl and calm down.

Modifié par Valentia X, 15 mars 2011 - 03:27 .

[Trixsy]

Since he was my partner in crime the first time around with my warrior I couldn't kill him... didn't even want to though I disagreed with his choice. In the end though, as my Hawke said earlier... "nothing is more important than love" and so they ran away together.

For my mage playthrough, however, she will be horrified and side even more with Fenris that mages need to be controlled. Except for herself. Because she's a terrible hypocrite XD. She might let him go, but I haven't decided yet.

[Legbiter]

Maxed out his friend bar. Knifed him after things went Ka-BOOM.

[Dean_the_Young]

Valentia X wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You forgot the ignore the rape, torture, and tranquility of mages by the Templars....

Templar.

Singular, not plural.

You keep bringing up the abuse and depravity of one Templar, breaking the Templars own rules, as the sins of a thousand years of an institutuion, even though there's nothing to suggest the Templars as a whole have spent the last thousand years making everyone they don't like tranquil, raping them, and applying torture.

Except, it's not. Certainly nothing in Origins or Awakening ever supported it, and the abuses by that Templar were illegal and unjustified by the Templars themselves.

Depredations done by the Templars are mentioned in several areas. Wynne comments on how some of them aren't quite as nice (I need to redownload the toolkit to get the exact quote), that psycho who was on the young girl was not alone in that room, Anders talks about how he was lucky that he wasn't raped, we have no idea who tranquiled Karl but it's against Chantry law and I didn't see any of the templars boo-hooing over it... If Carver goes to the templars, he mentions how he's not comfortable with some of the extreme measures the templars take. The Chantry had a templar planted into the Wardens to basically harrass Anders according to that character short. An ex-templar is actively aiding apostates in his country because he doesn't agree with what the chantry does, and who would know better? Many templars in Kirkwall are attempting to help mages because they're not okay with their Knight-Commander's actions, whose boss- that's right, the Grand Cleric, head of their Chantry that the templars work for- is doing nothing but occasionally telling her to be a good girl and calm down.

Paragraph(s) per point are your friend.

Wynn saying that not all Templars are nice does not mean that all non-nice Templars are racist, or even irrational bigots. It means they aren't nice.

A rogue Templar leading a group of rogue Templars in violation of Templar rules still does not make an institutional practice of rape and torture.

Carver not being comfortable with some of the extreme templar actions does not mean those actions are rape or torture, of even tranquility. There are a lot of iffy things about the Templars (and the Wardens, and the Chantry, and whoever) that are none of those things.


Meredith is being oppressive, and that is why many Templars dislike her, but the ways in which she is oppressive are not consistent with your claims for a millenial-long institutional practice. Besides the generic police state, her gravest abuse is tranquility... which is still far shorter than what you've been implying. Meridith, before the Idol, actually shot down the Tranquil Solution. The Templars who oppose her in Act 3 oppose her for being overbearing and dictatorial, not for not even alleged institutionalization of rape and mass torture.

Meredith's de facto boss is no one in Kirkwall. That's why she's the most powerful figure in the city in Act 3. Not the Grand Cleric.