2340 réponses à ce sujet

[The Baconer]

I killed him. With that act he betrayed my (Hawke's) trust and condemned more mages to death than Meredith could ever hope for. It's bad enough that I was already questioning my stance for siding with the mages even as a mage myself, since they seemed so intent on validating all of Meredith's accusations. It's funny that there's quite a handful of named templars that are sensible, not counting the unnamed mage sympathizers, but on the other hand there's like 3 mages in the entire game that don't go completely insane. Hell, the two level-headed people in the game who were most capable of reaching a compromise with the least amount of bloodshed were both murdered, by mages no less!

By the end of the game, I was fed up with Kirkwall and all the scum that inhabit it. Personally, I think the entire city should be burnt to the ground with every one still inside.

[Raiil]

I didn't claim they were all flaming jerks out to tranquil every mage. But the abuse happens enough where it's noted, and it is a problem. It's enough of a problem that other templars comment on it.


The Grand Cleric is the head of the Chantry in their particular area. That puts her above the Knight-Commander, who serves the Chantry. You're able to ask her why she doesn't do more, and she chooses not to. It's not from some inability to step in and stay Meredith's hand.

If Meredith is able to act on her own without listening to the Grand Cleric, then there's a serious problem in the hierarchy which lends itself to abuse. If Meredith is not, then the Grand Cleric is not stepping up to protect all of her charges, because if the Circle falls under Chantry control, then all those mages are at her mercy. The system in place that's supposed to protect everyone has failed, even before Meredith loses control of herself due to the idol piece.

The closest we have (other than Anders) to anyone trying to change it is Alistair sheltering apostates, and some templars who believe that Meredith is going too far. If a system is failing that fast internally and it can't be fixed internally, it needs to be replaced, whether the failure is from moral (obvs. subjective) or lawful/rational reasons.

Modifié par Valentia X, 15 mars 2011 - 04:03 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Valentia X wrote...

I didn't claim they were all flaming jerks out to tranquil every mage. But the abuse happens enough where it's noted, and it is a problem. It's enough of a problem that other templars comment on it.

And this proves that they're all in on it... how?

The nature of conspiracies, after all, is to not be foilable.

The Grand Cleric is the head of the Chantry in their particular area. That puts her above the Knight-Commander, who serves the Chantry. You're able to ask her why she doesn't do more, and she chooses not to. It's not from some inability to step in and stay Meredith's hand.

Except it is.

The Chantry should be in charge, but in the context of Kirkwall it isn't. The Templars, and Meredith's, status as the true powers in the city are repeated far more than once.

If Meredith is able to act on her own without listening to the Grand Cleric, then there's a serious problem in the hierarchy which lends itself to abuse. If Meredith is not, then the Grand Cleric is not stepping up to protect all of her charges, because if the Circle falls under Chantry control, then all those mages are at her mercy. The system in place that's supposed to protect everyone has failed, even before Meredith loses control of herself due to the idol piece.

The problem is context. Kirkwall is a unique situation with unique history, which thanks to a unique chain of events put the Templars in greater control than the Chantry, without a regular stressor of events to give the Chantry reason to reign in the Templars.

This lasted as long as it did, however, because Meredith was not crazed until after she got the idol in the last three years, and while her actions were hard they were also justified by the actual presence of great numbers of bloodmages (who the First Enchanter was actually supporting in some respects). Meredith was not acting outside her station for most of the game, therefore the Chantry had neither the reason or the need to try and reassert control. Meredith was doing her proper job, and while absuses did happen within the Templars these were neither sanctioned or encouraged.

The closest we have (other than Anders) to anyone trying to change it is Alistair sheltering apostates, and some templars who believe that Meredith is going too far. If a system is failing that fast internally and it can't be fixed internally, it needs to be replaced, whether the failure is from moral (obvs. subjective) or lawful/rational reasons.

Or you could kill the mages. That's what Anders solution amounts to, really.

Mind you, we actually were at a point at which Meredith had clearly overstepped her bounds and in which the Grand Cleric had basis to intervene and moderate. Until Meredith actually did something wrong, intervention by the Grand Cleric was a questionable affair at best: what would Meredith be accused of and be relieved for? Fighting an actual outbreak of bloodmage apostates? Cracking down on person-smuggling rings who sought to get mages out of the Circle? Being disagreeable?

[knightnblu]

Anders was a mass murderer, so yes, I killed him for what he did. As for which faction I chose, I went with the mages.

[Kevin Lozandier]

Dylandl wrote...

From gameplay perspective, how can you kill Anders when he is the only spirit healer mage in the party (and you're not a mage)? When you kill him, you're left with Merril who doesn't get the Creation tree. To keep my healer, regardless of what I felt about what he had done, I HAD to spare him.

To let a plot twist like this get in the way of role playing is terrible, imo.

Bethany is a GREAT healer you could use alternately just fine, despite not having something like Pancrea or a character-specific branch. I had a hunch I would be able to use her if I sided with the Mages, so killing Anders for his Terrorism was a no-brainer. I wanted to side with the Templars because I had hunch that would be the only way to be the Viscount as the Templars were the majority (even more obvious if you sided with the mages and so how the Templars owned most of the mages, lol), but doing it for just that seemed wrong compared to all was at stake (if I was right that the only way to be viscount was to side with the Templars, which seems so now reading some of the reples on this thread),

After siding with the mages, and seeing how even the First Enchanter decided to do blood magic, all mages alive knew or did blood magic except Bethany; I definitely would have  sided with the Templars. The only problem with the Templars which was easy to reconcile was Merdith; she was going overboard, but the "Pure" lyrium had to do with that I think (it can't be Pure). The Chantry, the dominant religion,  by nature have the Templar as their arms. In DAO, you found out stuff like Andraste's ashes really DO exist in the world, so their beliefs aren't all crazy.  Thus, looking back. I would have sided with the Templars and then find a way to save certain mages. All in all, I'm not happy that I sided with the mages.   I'm sure in Dragon Age 3, if you sided with the Mages or not, you could make a distinction further on encouraging mages to not work with Devils and/or find a solution that saves them, but that's up to the Dragon Age Writers to allows such ending to ensue. Excellent Act 3.

To be honest, I'm mad that the game ended there; this SO felt like a 5 star midpoint in the game; even if it meant Dragon Age 2 coming out next year or late fall instead, it would have been worth it. I mean, could we have had at least ONE clue on what Flemeth went on doing, what Morrigan is doing she didn't like, or what the Grey Wardens were worried about in the section of Deep Roads your hero found?

Modifié par Kevin Lozandier, 15 mars 2011 - 04:40 .

[BlaznZero]

Poor guy. I am pro-mage, but he got too extremist on me.

Hope he enjoyed the trademark "Decision Death" daggar in the back.

[ComeOnEA]

Im surprised no one caught where the Grand Cleric said something like Mages arent people or they are people being punished by the maker (cant remember the quote ). After she said that I wasnt trippin off her dead

[frylock23]

Kirkwall was always a powder keg getting ready to blow up.

I played a rogue femHawke who was trying to walk the fine line and eventually win over enough support to oust Meredith. I had a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach when Anders started acting all suicidal and had me help him find "sela petre" (salt peter) and drakestone (sulfur). I kind of thought he was getting ready to set himself up as a suicide bomber using a black powder recipe he'd taken off some Qunari or something.

At any rate, he became the love of femHawke's life, and she felt quite betrayed that he couldn't trust her to help oust Meredith a free the mages and went so far as to lie and use her as a cover so he could plant device. That femHawke actually liked and sympathized with the tenuous position of the Grand Cleric didn't at all help. They way I see it, Elthina was as much hostage to Kirkwall's templars and Meredith's nutso-ness as the mages were in her own way. Which army was Elthina going to use to oust Meredith? Oh, yeah, that templar one. Talk about getting the Chantry and the templars to tear themselves apart unless circumstances played into Elthina's hands and made it painfully clear that Meredith had to be removed.

As to chasing blood mages all throughout the game, the mages of Kirkwall were being squeezed way too hard and were getting desparate. Terrorize a bunch of sheltered people who have never had to think and act independently because they've never really been allowed to and IMO the seductive whispers of demons and power get that much more difficult to withstand. I sided with the mages because I figure femHawke has had two sterling examples in her father and her sister of mages that are free and didn't immediately becomes slavering abominations slitting their wrists at every opportunity. Not even Anders entirely went that far, I see what he did in the end as his own act. Out of all the desparate blood mage/abominations, Anders wound up being the real monster even without shedding blood and becoming possessed. The others were just pitiable and pathetic - even the First Enchanter.

No, as much as my femHawke loved Anders, she couldn't just look past what he did. I dearly wanted to hand him over to Meredith straightaway even as much as I disliked the sour old iron-fisted b****. Since I wasn't allowed to do that and he'd killed innocents, including the last person who might have brought a peaceful resolution to the problem, and betrayed my femHawke's love and trust up to and including using her to carry out his plot, I executed him.

As to needing a healer, nah. I didn't. The Pride demon scenario was tough, but in the end, Avaline was able to tank it while the rest of the party aggroed all the shades away and dealt with them. Then, we took down Pride. After fighting the massive Pride demon in the tiny little room underneath dark town, none of the final battles were all that difficult.

[artsangel]

My female mage kept him alive and then ran off with him to be a fugitive. She never wanted power or status and believed in love above all things, and at least figured she could try to stop Anders from doing anything more reckless.

Me, well my jaw landed in the deep roads and I did want to punish Anders for what he did. But I was RPing. He dies in my next playthrough, I'm playing a male mage who is all pro-Templar

Though in all honestly I don't blame 'Anders' for what he did, I blame Vengeance. If only there were a way to really separate them without making Anders tranquil...

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

artsangel wrote...

Though in all honestly I don't blame 'Anders' for what he did, I blame Vengeance. If only there were a way to really separate them without making Anders tranquil...

You remind me of those women who rationalize their boyfriends/husbands beating them. 

Yes, let's blame it on "Vengeance". I mean, Anders didn't clearly explain he knew full well what he was doing and what the reprecussions would be prior to your handing out his sentence. Some people will look for any reason to excuse reprehensible acts. 

[Werrf]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Chantry should be in charge, but in the context of Kirkwall it isn't. The Templars, and Meredith's, status as the true powers in the city are repeated far more than once.
...
Mind you, we actually were at a point at which Meredith had clearly overstepped her bounds and in which the Grand Cleric had basis to intervene and moderate. Until Meredith actually did something wrong, intervention by the Grand Cleric was a questionable affair at best: what would Meredith be accused of and be relieved for? Fighting an actual outbreak of bloodmage apostates? Cracking down on person-smuggling rings who sought to get mages out of the Circle? Being disagreeable? 

But I gave the Grand Cleric every chance to explain her failure to reign in the Templars.  She didn't say that she couldn't, she told me that she wouldn't, insisting that she must remain neutral (not her job), and find 'balance', with the implication that the horrific abuses of the mages in Kirkwall was the balance she was looking for.  We had evidence of mages who had not failed their Harrowing being tranquilised; baseless accusations of blood magic; Templar enforcers going around terrorising non-mages, Meredith insisting that only she could appoint a Viscount, which is most DEFINITELY not her place.  There was plenty of evidence to justify the Grand Cleric's intervention, but she refused.  She didn't say she couldn't, didn't ask for help, simply refused to intervene.  At which point the only non-violent means of reining in the Knight Commander is gone, and I can't help feeling that Anders' decision is - not justified, but understandable.

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

Werrf wrote...

 baseless accusations of blood magic

When litterally every single mage you meet except Bethany and Feyndriel turn out to actually be Blood Mages, it surprises me that people keep claiming that these accusations of blood magic were baseless when in reality, they paled in the scope by failing to realize there was far more blood magic going on than the Templars dreamed.

Very few people also seem to remember that Leliana is fairly clear that she (the big honcho Chantry; not the provincial Chantry of Kirkwall) believes there is a third party at work behind the blood magic in Kirkwall. That it is NOT just a response to the Templars.

I like to get into the Templars vs Mages argument as much as anyone else, but it conveniantly overlooks that issue. 

Maybe because it's (I believe) part of Sebastian's DLC quests, so not everyone has actually talked with Leliana in the Viscount's Keep?

Lastly, the Grand Cleric was very clear what she was doing in regards to the mages and templars. And she showed it beautifully in the way she handled both Meredith and Orsino like little children at the beginning of Act 3. It's just a shame that people can't grasp anything that doesn't involve dramatic murder and hacking off of limbs as action.

Modifié par kjdhgfiliuhwe, 15 mars 2011 - 02:28 .

[MaglorArcanist]

Anders at the end loose the control (see the young mage who has killed) and i do some step back with him, but i still with the mages.
But anders at the and for me is another abomination, no much better of a deamon possessed blood mage, and anoter remind on the fact mages need templars, but templars need to be watched like the mages and the others powers, and not be out of control.

[Werrf]

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

When litterally every single mage you meet except Bethany and Feyndriel turn out to actually be Blood Mages, it surprises me that people keep claiming that these accusations of blood magic were baseless when in reality, they paled in the scope by failing to realize there was far more blood magic going on than the Templars dreamed.

The huge increase in blood magic came towards the end, as far as I can recall (only one play through, correct me if I'm wrong), while the accusations of blood magic went on throughout.  It's those early accusations I'd consider baseless, and indeed it was the crackdown due to those accusations that drove others into blood magic.

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

Maybe because it's (I believe) part of Sebastian's DLC quests, so not everyone has actually talked with Leliana in the Viscount's Keep?

I know that I never saw her until the very end; don't know about anyone else.

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

Lastly, the Grand Cleric was very clear what she was doing in regards to the mages and templars. And she showed it beautifully in the way she handled both Meredith and Orsino like little children at the beginning of Act 3. It's just a shame that people can't grasp anything that doesn't involve dramatic murder and hacking off of limbs as action.

Indeed, if she'd done more of that, and actually intervened when there wasn't a direct, head-to-head confrontation between Meredith and Orsino, I'd have a lot more respect for her.  Or if she'd let the Champion know, when directly asked, that she was working behind the scenes to reduce the tension.  Or if there'd been any signs of tensions, y'know, reducing in any way.  Instead, we just hear her waffle about how the Chantry must preserve the balance between Templars and Mages - when there is absolutely no balance to be had.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I think Anders was foolish and reckless, like most idealists that lack any sense of realism, pragmatism and planning.

That said, since my Hawke ends up joining the mages, he let Anders live for now. And he became a fugitive. However, if my Hawke assumed a leadership position of Kirkwall, he would have executed Anders publicly, along with other extremists, to help alleviate the understandable bloodlust of the masses. I don't believe in punitive killing. Killing should have a clear and material purpose for me.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mars 2011 - 03:42 .

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

Werrf wrote...

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

Maybe because it's (I believe) part of Sebastian's DLC quests, so not everyone has actually talked with Leliana in the Viscount's Keep?

I know that I never saw her until the very end; don't know about anyone else.

The Grand Cleric wants you to convince the Seeker...Sister Nightingale that Orlais does not need to start a war in Kirkwall. You are to meet this Seeker in the Viscount's Keep in the throne room at night. You show up and are attacked by a bunch of Blood Mages and their abominations/demons/etc. After killing them, Leliana shows up (she's Sister Nightingale) and has a conversation with you.

Some of the interesting bits are:

* Orlais is basically determined to go to war in the Free Marches. 
* Because of this, she wants you to convince the Grand Cleric to leave.
* She choose the meeting place and time to see if the information would be leaked. It was. The implication seemed to me to be that there is a leak in the Chantry itself.
* She believes there is a third party at work behind all the blood magic in Kirkwall as it is well beyond the scope of reaction to Templar abuse.

I think if you do not do this little quest line, you are unfortunately stuck in thinking the conflict is about mage vs templar when it seems that there is something bigger and darker going on behind the scenes manipulating these events. That's the real reason Leliana was there, and presumably that's the real reason Leliana and Cassandra are seeking the Champion (and Warder) at the end of the story.

Modifié par kjdhgfiliuhwe, 15 mars 2011 - 03:46 .

[mineralica]

My mage spent entire game proving that mages may be free without making the another Tevinter, that they are not going to kill anyone on their way, that they are mature enough to be allowed to make a decisions themselves...
And then one zealot spoiled this all. Blowing chantry up will be a perfect excuse for hating and slaughtering mages. Thank you, Anders.
Kill him or spare him? And what do you think he's going to do? I don't think it will be something including "redemption" or "fixing" and my character don't want to help him in crimes, even in just letting Anders live.

[filetemo]

I killed Anders and sided with mages, because Bethany is my loved sister. Also I was pleasantly surprised that Aveline stood with me. My reason was that I did not want to take part in the conflict but with Meredith dead the situation would maybe get calmed. I didn't want to provoke that wild worldwide mess. lol

[Kreidian]

How can you not kill Anders?

Even if you completely support his cause and his intentions. Even if you completely agree that all these problems came from the Chantry. nothing, NOTHING, excuses the fact that he killed innocents. This was a terrorist attack after all.

For all that I liked the guy, for all that I supported him - even when you add the fact that Sebastian was a complete tool and I would have gladly taken his ass down for threatening to invade Kirkwall - he HAD to pay for his crimes. Let him be a martyr, or let him become the hated Villain of a cautionary tale. Anyway you look at it the man had gone too far.

[LobselVith8]

They were members of an organization that enslaved his people. I had no interest in killing a man who wanted to end the slavery of mages.

[TexasToast712]

I killed him simply because I know Bioware and I know that just like Leliana, Bioware loves Anders. The will say something in DA3 like "Oh Vengence managed to keep me alive when you sta...ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL!"

Hawke and the Warden: "OH **** RUN!"

[NeroSparda]

LobselVith8 wrote...

They were members of an organization that enslaved his people. I had no interest in killing a man who wanted to end the slavery of mages.

But to involve people that are possibly trying to help mage that may have killed in that blast. Can you say you defend the guy for doing something so irresponsible and use that reason as an excuse? The only reason I didn't kill the bastard is the fact that my Hawke consider him as a bro, just like Sebastian. Took me four minutes to decide too.

[TexasToast712]

NeroSparda wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

They were members of an organization that enslaved his people. I had no interest in killing a man who wanted to end the slavery of mages.

But to involve people that are possibly trying to help mage that may have killed in that blast. Can you say you defend the guy for doing something so irresponsible and use that reason as an excuse? The only reason I didn't kill the bastard is the fact that my Hawke consider him as a bro, just like Sebastian. Took me four minutes to decide too.

Ignore Lobsel. He is a extremely biased mage fanboy, you cant reason with him.

Modifié par TexasToast712, 16 mars 2011 - 04:43 .

[BeastMTL]

In my playthrough I was a mage and Anders was my LI. I was definitely pro-mage but what he did just went too far, so I ended up killing my lover but still standing by the mages.

[Veronica Ward]

I had to let him live. The chantry is hardly a benevolent organization. It has good aspects, but if you're part of an organization that subjugates a group of people for something that they cannot control, and practically commits genocide on a group of people because they don't worship how you want (the elves) you're not innocent.