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[LobselVith8]

Nero, he wanted to put an end to slavey. He attacked members of a religious organization at used religion to justify the slavery of mages. Because of his actions, the mages freed themselves from the Chantry. He did what no one was able to accomplish in a thousand years. While people can feel free to hate Anders for what he did, what he accomplished was the emancipation of an enslaved people. The alternative to Anders' actions was another thousand years of subjugation.

[Star]

No I didn't kill Anders. Killing solves nothing; simply acts to spur in-kind response. One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter. What one person considers justice, another considers an act of terror.

The templars have been oppressing and killing mages for years and often killing innocents in the process. So when does it stop? Now, does that mean I condone Ander's actions? No I don't but that doesn't mean that killing him is the only solution.
 
I would have preferred a diplomatic solution although I'm well aware it's pretty much physically impossible to hear/listen when one is angry. I'm just sorry the game didn't give us a more peaceful option. But I know...less exciting and dramatic.

Modifié par Star58, 16 mars 2011 - 04:04 .

[Dean_the_Young]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Nero, he wanted to put an end to slavey. He attacked members of a religious organization at used religion to justify the slavery of mages.

Besides the, ahem, marked differences between the historical forms of slavery and what the Circle is.

It's involuntariy interment, not forced labor. The proceeds of the Circle's work don't even go to the Chantry: they go to the Circle itself.

Because of his actions, the mages freed themselves from the Chantry.

No, they haven't. They're in rebellion: they have nothing enduring until they've won a peace.

Anders, unfortunately, has given them nothing in regards to that.

He did what no one was able to accomplish in a thousand years.

There have been a number of Annulments since the Circle System. He's created the greatest mage crisis, but hardly the only mage  crisis. We already put down one Mage Revolt in Origins.

While people can feel free to hate Anders for what he did, what he accomplished was the emancipation of an enslaved people. The alternative to Anders' actions was another thousand years of subjugation.

He hasn't emancipated them. He's put them in a war in which they will either all die, be re-subjugated, or win, except what he did has done nothing to help them win the war he started.

[fthg42]

I didn't kill Anders either. Never mind that my Hawke was in a relationship with Anders - I don't think I'd have killed him anyways. It would have just been more bloodshed, and Hawke's already lost so many people close to him. There was no way I could do that to one of my companions willingly after all we'd been through, even after what he did.

I wouldn't have minded punching Sebastian in the face for threatening me and my own, however. I TOLD him not to interfere.

[Nonoru]

Killed him in my templar douchy playthrough.(i killed as much as i could with this character)

Other than that,i let him go on my first playthrough as a rogue.

[LobselVith8]

Considering Hawke can identify the Chantry controlled Circle as slavery, I fail to see why you think you can dispute what's explicitly said in the actual game, Dean. They don't call it forced labor, they call it slavery, and your contention about the state of the Circle ignores what Varric explicitly states about the Circles having broken free along with the Order of Templars. Whether they stay that way is certainly an issue of debate, but they have indeed broken free from the Chantry.

Furthermore, Anders gave the mages the opportunity to rebel against the Chantry by showing them the Chantry can be defied, as Varric says. Why do you seem so intent on disputing what's actually mentioned in the storyline, Dean? I don't understand.

And how does wanting the end of slavery make Anders that, Nonoru?

[vigna]

Star58 wrote...

No I didn't kill Anders. Killing solves nothing; simply acts to spur in-kind response. One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter. What one person considers justice, another considers an act of terror.

The templars have been oppressing and killing mages for years and often killing innocents in the process. So when does it stop? Now, does that mean I condone Ander's actions? No I don't but that doesn't mean that killing him is the only solution.
 
I would have preferred a diplomatic solution although I'm well aware it's pretty much physically impossible to hear/listen when one is angry. I'm just sorry the game didn't give us a more peaceful option. But I know...less exciting and dramatic.

It's karma. The Justice aspect of Anders sought retribution and justice for the mages...yet he killed the Chantry occupants. So, in effect, Justice would need justice brought against him.

I can sympathize with Anders needing help, but Justice is/was such a wild card, and apparently uncontrollable I don't see the justification for letting him live.  Anders said justice was gone, but did anyone really believe that?

The "putting Anders to death" solution could very well have kept Kirkwall from the receiving end of the holy war's wrath.

How is killing the mage that killed your mother any different than killing Anders? I view it as a mercy killing. death was the proper solution, because Anders wasn't a normal mage that could be controlled. Making him tranquil is cruel, and if you let him go to prison he would have been tortured undoubtedly. killing Anders didn't solve the problem he created, but I'm sure it helped. It is one thing to kill someone wanting to hurt or kill you or a loved  one, but killing innocents is ridiculous.
Anders deserved death....

[Star]

vigna wrote...

Star58 wrote...

No I didn't kill Anders. Killing solves nothing; simply acts to spur in-kind response. One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter. What one person considers justice, another considers an act of terror.

The templars have been oppressing and killing mages for years and often killing innocents in the process. So when does it stop? Now, does that mean I condone Ander's actions? No I don't but that doesn't mean that killing him is the only solution.
 
I would have preferred a diplomatic solution although I'm well aware it's pretty much physically impossible to hear/listen when one is angry. I'm just sorry the game didn't give us a more peaceful option. But I know...less exciting and dramatic.

It's karma. The Justice aspect of Anders sought retribution and justice for the mages...yet he killed the Chantry occupants. So, in effect, Justice would need justice brought against him.

I can sympathize with Anders needing help, but Justice is/was such a wild card, and apparently uncontrollable I don't see the justification for letting him live.  Anders said justice was gone, but did anyone really believe that?

The "putting Anders to death" solution could very well have kept Kirkwall from the receiving end of the holy war's wrath.

How is killing the mage that killed your mother any different than killing Anders? I view it as a mercy killing. death was the proper solution, because Anders wasn't a normal mage that could be controlled. Making him tranquil is cruel, and if you let him go to prison he would have been tortured undoubtedly. killing Anders didn't solve the problem he created, but I'm sure it helped. It is one thing to kill someone wanting to hurt or kill you or a loved  one, but killing innocents is ridiculous.
Anders deserved death....

I tend to go with Gandalf: "Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends."

[Dean_the_Young]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering Hawke can identify the Chantry controlled Circle as slavery, I fail to see why you think you can dispute what's explicitly said in the actual game, Dean.

Hawke can also not identify it as slavery, and call it the right and necessary thing.

Why is a potential option definitive and set in stone when it support you, but an opposing alternative is not?

They don't call it forced labor, they call it slavery,

They could also call it happy-happy-fun-house, and that wouldn't make it any more or less what it is.

People who take sides choose words that favor their sides. That does not, and never has, meant that the words they choose are accurate.

and your contention about the state of the Circle ignores what Varric explicitly states about the Circles having broken free along with the Order of Templars. Whether they stay that way is certainly an issue of debate, but they have indeed broken free from the Chantry.

Since I never denied that, there is not contradiction.

Temporary rebellion, however, is not the same as successfully claiming your freedom.

Furthermore, Anders gave the mages the opportunity to rebel against the Chantry by showing them the Chantry can be defied, as Varric says.

Why do you seem so intent on disputing what's actually mentioned in the storyline, Dean? I don't understand.

Quite likely because you consistently fail to comprehend the concept of a failed revolution that gives neither victory or freedom to its followers.

Anyone can defy anyone. Succeding in opposition is another matter. Overcoming obstacles and actually delivering any sort of improvement is another. The Circles always had the opportunity and means to go 'give us liberty or give us death': that  doesn't mean they would get liberty as opposed to death, and that doesn't mean they've won. Nothing Varric claims ever says or suggests that.

If you truly can't understand how rebellions can be justified in all sorts of flowery justifications and then be crushed utterly to the detriment of those who rebelled, I can certainly point you towards a number of examples of just that. Would you care for a contemporary case study in the example of Libya's failed revolt against Gaddafi? Or would you prefer to familiarize yourself with the rebellion against Yankee Tyranny that was the American Civil War? If you'd like rebellions that actually succeded, would you care to take the Soveit Revolution, Mao's takeover of China, or the Khmer Rogue?

[LobselVith8]

Because you other support it, or you don't, Dean. That doesn't mean it's not slavery.

The mages broke free from the Chantry, that's not an issue of contention. You seem go be saying it's status is temporary, but if the Chantry is "in pieces" then I don't see how they would specifically win the war, especially if the Qunari might go to war and the greatest advantage Thedas has is the mages who can deal with the Qunari's advanced technology.

Your failure to comprehend that, in a thousand years, the Circles never collectively separated from the Chantry seems to be an issue that continues to elude you. If you cant see the significant of an enslaved group of people emancipated themselves after a thousand years of subjugation, then you don't see the importance of what Anders did when he showed the Circles that the Chantry can be defied, as Varric explicitly stated was the reason behind the mage revolution and the Circles breaking free from the Chantry.

[Succubus77]

My peace keeper, good girl mage character had to kill him and afterward side with the mages.

She knows that its wrong to kill a whole bunch of innocent people. She understands why he felt he had to do what he did but he had to be held accountable for mass murder just like Meredith did.

He understood but it still made her (and me)

[The Baconer]

Star58 wrote...

I tend to go with Gandalf: "Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends."

Tell that to Anders

[UrbanPhoenix]

I just finished DA2, and I killed him. 1. Sebastian had threatened me with Starkhaven army and 2. You don't lie to my Champion and get away with it!

[Hurbster]

Yup, Killed him. Then I reloaded and killed him again just to make sure.

[The Razman]

I was seriously considering killing him ... guy's a magical terrorist, for god's sake. But in the end I let him stay with me, so I could keep an eye on his ass.

[vigna]

Star58 wrote...

vigna wrote...

Star58 wrote...

No I didn't kill Anders. Killing solves nothing; simply acts to spur in-kind response. One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter. What one person considers justice, another considers an act of terror.

The templars have been oppressing and killing mages for years and often killing innocents in the process. So when does it stop? Now, does that mean I condone Ander's actions? No I don't but that doesn't mean that killing him is the only solution.
 
I would have preferred a diplomatic solution although I'm well aware it's pretty much physically impossible to hear/listen when one is angry. I'm just sorry the game didn't give us a more peaceful option. But I know...less exciting and dramatic.

It's karma. The Justice aspect of Anders sought retribution and justice for the mages...yet he killed the Chantry occupants. So, in effect, Justice would need justice brought against him.

I can sympathize with Anders needing help, but Justice is/was such a wild card, and apparently uncontrollable I don't see the justification for letting him live.  Anders said justice was gone, but did anyone really believe that?

The "putting Anders to death" solution could very well have kept Kirkwall from the receiving end of the holy war's wrath.

How is killing the mage that killed your mother any different than killing Anders? I view it as a mercy killing. death was the proper solution, because Anders wasn't a normal mage that could be controlled. Making him tranquil is cruel, and if you let him go to prison he would have been tortured undoubtedly. killing Anders didn't solve the problem he created, but I'm sure it helped. It is one thing to kill someone wanting to hurt or kill you or a loved  one, but killing innocents is ridiculous.
Anders deserved death....

I tend to go with Gandalf: "Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends."

Gandalf also failed to fly the Hobbits on gaint eagles to Mount Doom and just drop in the rings. So, Gandalf is pretty dumb too.

[Wulfram]

Aethel wasn't going to allow herself to become more of an accomplice in the crime than Anders had already made her. So the only option was to kill him, and then try to save the mages from the consequences of his actions.

[Star]

The Baconer wrote...

Star58 wrote...

I tend to go with Gandalf: "Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends."

Tell that to Anders

Yep.  I'm sure my Hawke will. 

[Star]

vigna wrote...

Star58 wrote...

vigna wrote...

Star58 wrote...

No I didn't kill Anders. Killing solves nothing; simply acts to spur in-kind response. One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter. What one person considers justice, another considers an act of terror.

The templars have been oppressing and killing mages for years and often killing innocents in the process. So when does it stop? Now, does that mean I condone Ander's actions? No I don't but that doesn't mean that killing him is the only solution.
 
I would have preferred a diplomatic solution although I'm well aware it's pretty much physically impossible to hear/listen when one is angry. I'm just sorry the game didn't give us a more peaceful option. But I know...less exciting and dramatic.

It's karma. The Justice aspect of Anders sought retribution and justice for the mages...yet he killed the Chantry occupants. So, in effect, Justice would need justice brought against him.

I can sympathize with Anders needing help, but Justice is/was such a wild card, and apparently uncontrollable I don't see the justification for letting him live.  Anders said justice was gone, but did anyone really believe that?

The "putting Anders to death" solution could very well have kept Kirkwall from the receiving end of the holy war's wrath.

How is killing the mage that killed your mother any different than killing Anders? I view it as a mercy killing. death was the proper solution, because Anders wasn't a normal mage that could be controlled. Making him tranquil is cruel, and if you let him go to prison he would have been tortured undoubtedly. killing Anders didn't solve the problem he created, but I'm sure it helped. It is one thing to kill someone wanting to hurt or kill you or a loved  one, but killing innocents is ridiculous.
Anders deserved death....

I tend to go with Gandalf: "Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends."

Gandalf also failed to fly the Hobbits on gaint eagles to Mount Doom and just drop in the rings. So, Gandalf is pretty dumb too.

Wow...now we're going into insults?  

Again, I don't condone what Anders did. I'm not some stars-in-the-eyes romantic, but as a pretty practical person what i see over and over again is that punishment does not deter, does not create "justice" but tends to invoke more violence.  You've got your perspective and I"ve got mine.  Guess we're just gonna have to disagree on this one.

[DarkWulfy]

I killed him... little ****** left me no choice. The entire game I was sympathetic towards mages, but after that craptastic decision on his part there was no way that mages weren't going to all-out-rebel afterwords. I hated Meredith but felt I been left no choice in the matter because Anders had just instigated the very activity which he had been speaking out against the entire game: backing people into a corner.. If there was a dialog option after anders little stunt for Hawke to "GTFO of Kirkwall", I would have gladly taken it at that point, I was really put off.

[vigna]

@Star58..wasn't saying that about you. I was saying that about Gandalf and Anders...sorry if unclear.

[SamFlagg]

Damn it Anders! If you'd just waited it was clear that Meredith was going to invoke the right of annulment sooner or later and you could've made a glorious stand against injustice then and been relatively blameless!

(as an aside, I think comparisons to the circle as a whole as slavery as opposed to just singling out the kirkwall circle in particular are ill-advised, in Ferelden at least it seemed Mages were much more akin to Elves in the alienage in terms of status than slaves.)

[Deylar]

Anders and I were friends. We weren't those kind of friends. But I had him in my party for ages. But when he did that. I was so upset so angry.

I choose the option, "I don't want to be a part of this any more"

But the game doesn't let you choose the nuetral option. And I chose the templars instead of the mages. Because of Anders.

I was so disgusted by him. I didn't know if I should give him mercy. I didn't know if I should kill him.

I was stuck. I couldn't deal with him. I was so frippin pissed.

And then I killed him

Modifié par Deylar, 16 mars 2011 - 11:31 .

[DarkWulfy]

Deylar wrote...

Anders and I were friends. We weren't those kind of friends. But I had him in my party for ages. But when he did that. I was so upset so angry.

I choose the option, "I don't want to be a part of this any more"

But the game doesn't let you choose the nuetral option. And I chose the templars instead of the mages. Because of Anders.

I was so disgusted by him. I didn't know if I should give him mercy. I didn't know if I should kill him.

I was stuck. I couldn't deal with him. I was so frippin pissed.

And then I killed him

It's like you took the words right out of my brain.

What sucks is that this is right after Isabella stabbed me in the back, and I was cornered into wiping out my friends entire Dalish tribe while she sobbed  "It's all just a bad dream...".... very sad chain of events for my playthru

Modifié par DarkWulfy, 16 mars 2011 - 11:49 .

[Kabraxal]

He's a murdering terrorist... he dies from now on with any of my Hawke's that have the slightest shred of humanity in them.