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Did anyone else kill Anders?


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#501
cglasgow

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Lobsel... What's the primary objection to the Tevinter Imperium?  That its society is evil.

Therefore, to make the claim 'its not like Tevinter!' is to say that its society is a decent place.

So quit trying to have it both ways.   You want to say that free mages are ruling a decent and free land, you are most definitely talking about "social conditions", as 'decent' and 'free' both are what?

So, color me epically unimpressed with your 'I wasn't talking about social conditions, I was just saying that its not like Tevinter' argument.   The entire point of the discussion is whether its possible to let mages run free without the whole place turning into a pit.

Modifié par cglasgow, 21 mars 2011 - 06:32 .


#502
Eledran

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Hell yes, glad to be rid of him.

I really regretted romancing him, did it by mistake. They made him way too much of a whiny bastard imo.

#503
Malocus

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I had been itching the whole game through to kill all templars and all chantry people, so no. I applauded Anders for doing what I wanted to do all along.

#504
Atmosfear3

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Shanked him 2 out of 3 of my playthroughs. How dare he kill that sweet old cleric.

#505
LobselVith8

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cglasgow wrote...

Lobsel... What's the primary objection to the Tevinter Imperium?  That its society is evil.

Therefore, to make the claim 'its not like Tevinter!' is to say that its society is a decent place.


I disagree. To make the claim that the nation of Rivain, the Chasind tribes, and the town of Haven aren't replicas of the Tevinter Imperium is to address that societies with free mages don't necessarily seek to emulate the kind of society that one finds with the Tevinter Imperium.

cglasgow wrote...

So quit trying to have it both ways.   You want to say that free mages are ruling a decent and free land, you are most definitely talking about "social conditions", as 'decent' and 'free' both are what?


I never addressed any of those societies as decent and free, I addressed those societies having free mages and not trying to mirror the kind of magocracy that we see in Tevinter. Regardless of the morality in Haven, the mages didn't topple Kolgrim or his ancestors and install a magocracy of blood magic and slavery. The Chasind tribes are governed by Shamans, but they aren't reminiscent of the brutal magocracy that we hear about in Tevinter. We hear nothing about the seers trying to turn Rivain into a magocracy of blood magic and slavery despite the tradition of seers being at least a millennia old. I don't think you can argue that it's a certainty that free mages mean another Imperium when this hasn't been the case so far.

cglasgow wrote...

So, color me epically unimpressed with your 'I wasn't talking about social conditions, I was just saying that its not like Tevinter' argument.   The entire point of the discussion is whether its possible to let mages run free without the whole place turning into a pit.


Technically, the OP is focused on whether anyone killed Anders, not on the issues of free mages. Second, you willingly involved yourself in a discussion between me and Pandaman102, where the topic of Tevinter came up during this conversation:

Pandaman102 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The lives of the mages are tragic. Anders wanted to see the mages across Thedas free. Considering no one else in a thousand years was able to accomplish what Anders did, I don't see him as the villain that some people try to portray him as.


Tevinter Imperium, anyone?


I disagreed with the assessment that free mages mean another Imperium, since we're aware of societies with free mages and they haven't tried to emulate the Imperium.

#506
cralexns

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I really wanted to force Anders to help me take down the mages but since he refused, I had to settle for the next best by stabbing him in the back - he didn't deserve any better for killing that sweet old lady and those other lovely chantry types. Damn you Anders, the moment the Warden-Commander met you in Awakening I knew you were nothing but trouble!

Modifié par cralexns, 21 mars 2011 - 06:54 .


#507
Captain_Obvious

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I didn't kill him, and then I did. Ahh, multiple playthroughs. I don't know if I'll be able to kill him again, though. It was really sad.

#508
TexasToast712

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We all know Anders/Vengence is gonna pull a Leliana and come back from the dead in DA3 anyway so you might as well kill him just for the hell of it.

Modifié par TexasToast712, 21 mars 2011 - 06:58 .


#509
Chthonic

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I knew it was coming, heard roomers about what he would do. But when it happened I was still completely shocked and horrified. That's how well that scene was handled. Bravo, Bio.

I loved how, in the end, for all Anders berated Merill for the blood magic and consorting with demons, he ended up being more of a monster (causing more horror and death) than all the blood mages and demons in the game combined. This while Merill (going the "I take responsibility" rivalmance option) turned out to be one of the most kind hearted, selfless characters in the game.

The monster is not who you'd think.

So yes, I shank'd his preachy **** and lived happily ever after with the sweet little blood mage.

Fin.

#510
Kabraxal

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cglasgow wrote...

Lobsel... What's the primary objection to the Tevinter Imperium?  That its society is evil.

Therefore, to make the claim 'its not like Tevinter!' is to say that its society is a decent place.

So quit trying to have it both ways.   You want to say that free mages are ruling a decent and free land, you are most definitely talking about "social conditions", as 'decent' and 'free' both are what?

So, color me epically unimpressed with your 'I wasn't talking about social conditions, I was just saying that its not like Tevinter' argument.   The entire point of the discussion is whether its possible to let mages run free without the whole place turning into a pit.


You are talking the poster that can't see the contradiction in saying you cannot judge all mages by the acts of all the mages we see kill and maim and be possed, but you sure as hell can judge any person that is a member of the Chantry as evil simply because members in the past and present have killed or maimed or enslaved....

His argument is not all that rational.

And after watching that scene again it is clear that you cannot argue he unwillingly killed innocents or put them at risk.  The explosion not only took out the Chantry, but it left trails of destruction and flaims throughout the surrounding area.  So even if you buy into the stupid "all chantry members" are evil schtick, you cannot escape the fact that Anders willingly risked innocents with that explosion.

So the terrorist dies.

Modifié par Kabraxal, 23 mars 2011 - 07:14 .


#511
Isolaede

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I loved the Grand Cleric on my first play through as much as anyone here. She seemed the voice of reason and sanity in a world standing on the brink of chaos.  During my next two subsequent play throughs I spent a lot more time with her however, and starting loosing respect for her. 
 
If you do all of Sebastian’s quests, and talk to her every time something involving the church comes up you start to realize that she’s not just a peace keeper, she’s a pacifist in the truest definition of the word. I also think she’s profoundly indecisive. She lost the biggest portion of my respect when I went to her with word that a Templar had used her authority to kidnap the Qunari delegates (this is after confronting Sister Patrice). When told these people were using her seal in this fashion, she basically said “The maker works in mysterious ways” and “We’ll have to wait and see how it plays out.”  Her name was being used to sow discontent and strife, her authority was being used to commit lawless and cruel acts, and she wants to sit on her hands and see how things play out?!  While one of her own tortures and murders an innocent diplomatic delegation?  I understand her trying to keep peace between the Mages and the Templars, I cannot understand or forgive her for not properly managing and dealing with radical acts within her own “flock.” She’s their leader and should have taken charge. Not doing so is paramount to condoning the actions.
 
I’m starting to think she’s not just a kind and peaceful person – she’s a weak person, without the courage to stand up for the convictions of her faith.  She clings to the status quo and tries to force others to as well.
 
Does that justify killing her and the other innocents in the chantry – absolutely not. 
 
However, after MUCH soul searching, and days spent hating Anders, I have at least come to the conclusion that his action was necessary.  I don’t think any other act would have guaranteed the beginning of a mage war (which he felt had to happen – as did I).  In his mind, he had only one shot at it (as he expects to die), so he had to do something SO terrible that it would force Templars to act out against mages, and mages to defend themselves.  
 
His intention, I believe, was not to kill innocents or even the Grand Cleric, I believe he wished to publically destroy a symbol. The Chantry was a building – just brick and mortar, but it was also more than that.  The grand cathedral of Kirkwall was a symbol, a nexus point, and indeed the heart of a religion that condoned and supported the subjugation of mages.  It existed in the heart of one of the most corrupt cities in the empire – one known for its extremist approaches towards mages. No other building had that much symbolic power, even the Gallows.
 
In this regard I see Anders very much like V in V for Vendetta.  In fact, re-watching the movie I think the Bioware writers took a lot of inspiration from it. The parliament building in that movie stood as a symbol for the corruption of the current governmental system.  There is power in symbols.  And V blew up that symbol to symbolically free the people of his country of its hold on them.  To show them it was possible to be free of its chains.  His actions gave those people the courage they’d lacked before to rise up and overthrow that government. If you applauded V for his actions in that movie, then you can’t condemn Anders for his.  He quite literally did the exact same thing – the only difference was – we didn’t get to know the innocents that were killed in V’s explosion.  We didn’t know the janitorial staff, or the night security, or the governmental officials working late. Anders hurt us the most because Bioware made us respect and care for the Grand Cleric before we destroyed her.
 
To quote V: “...A building is a symbol, as is the act of destroying it. Symbols are given power by people. A symbol, in and of itself is powerless, but with enough people behind it, blowing up a building can change the world.”
 
Was Anders any different then V?  Were his actions any less necessary?  Put aside your feelings about the Grand Cleric dying and ask yourself if you feel mages deserve the same basic rights as all other living creatures, the right to choose their own destinies and live their lives for good or ill as they choose, not dictated by another.  Ask yourself if you were in their shoes what you would want.  If you would cleave to freedom, then don’t judge Anders too harshly. 
 
After summoning Flemeth from her amulet, she admonished you: “We stand on the precipice of change. The world fears the inevitable plummet into the abyss.  Watch for that moment… and when it comes, do not hesitate to leap.”
 
Peace was really never an option, for you or the world.  Flemeth warned you.  And Anders was right, the time for half measures and comprimise was over. So love him or hate him, but believe that his actions were necessary, and do not fear your part in pushing the world over the edge of that abyss.

#512
SamFlagg

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TexasToast712 wrote...

We all know Anders/Vengence is gonna pull a Leliana and come back from the dead in DA3 anyway so you might as well kill him just for the hell of it.


I'd actually bet the other way on that, just for the sheer number of people who did in fact kill him.  I mean the motivations are all over the place, be it instant betrayal pain, attempt to not rally the forces of starkhaven, or just deciding that Martyr or no what he put in motion is in motion, but he personally must be ended here.

I still maintain that his non resistance to death, offering not a hunt of struggle at all, must signify that in some way it is just. (No matter how personally odious it may be.

#513
Remmirath

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I killed him. My character had some regrets about it - he had been fairly loyal, after all, even if they didn't get along terribly well - but he felt it had to be done. He also sided with the Templars because he thought that the mages were all turning into abominations and it was rather out of control, though he would've preferred a compromise.

When/if I replay the game I'll almost certainly play a very different character, and then probably not kill him.

#514
Minmon

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@Isolaede

My issue with Anders, and what makes him different from V, is his choice of target. The Parliament was the seat of power for the corrupt government, but it was just that. The Chantry, while being A seat of power (and not even the only one considering other likely targets such as the Viscount's Keep and the Templar's Keep), was also a community center. To me, Anders' choice of target is akin to the difference is between suicide bombing the Pentagon vs the World Trade Center. Also note that V bombed Parliament at Midnight, where there were a minimum of people in Parliament. Anders did it during the day.

The degree of oppression is also different. Barring a few crazy people, it looks like the majority of templars would be content with keeping mages under, for all intents and purposes, house arrest. Combine that with absolute proof that mages love to bull**** about how oppressed they are, especially compared to the reality, and it really makes Anders' bombing inexcusable.

Please note that I am not personally agreeing that the Martial Law under Meredith was correct, that's a different topic compared to what I'm arguing about. What I do contend is that what Anders did was an act of terrorism and, by the laws of the land, should be executed.

#515
Guest_Shavon_*

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I'm not in love with Anders, by any stretch of the imagination. But I will never kill him or side with the Templars in any playthrough

#516
Kartikeya

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Just finished last night. Bravo, Bioware. Warning, giant TL;DR below!

I think it's doing this situation a severe disservice to break it down into 'the Chantry is eeevil' or 'the Chantry was full of totally innocent people' just as it would be to label Anders as being irredeemably evil period or entirely justified in his actions.

It was a brilliant writing move to make the Grand Cleric the way she was. She IS a sweet old lady who is very reasonable, calmly and quietly explains why she is doing what she is doing, obviously has a great deal of faith in her god, and is trying to make the best out of an increasingly bad situation by not adding fuel to the fire. She's also a pacifist, as someone pointed out above, to the point where it's not just a detriment to her own well being but to the well being of everyone in her city, especially the mages. She will not take a stand. She will not take sides. She will trust in the Maker that things will happen as they are meant to happen, and in the meantime all she's willing to do is try to be a mediator (but not too much of a mediator). What happens when Mother Petrice is revealed to have murdered the Viscount's son in an attempt to instigate a war with the Qunari? She turns her back and walks away, and acts as though she doesn't even notice when Petrice gets two well deserved arrows from a Qunari archer. This is who she is, and over the course of seven years, it's fairly obvious this is who she would always have been.

Unfortunately, her inaction saves no one in the end. Ignoring the powder keg that Kirkwall was, refusing to take a stand against Meredith (which, yes, by Act III this is all but impossible for her, but precisely because she's allowed Meredith to all but rule the city since the last Viscount before the one you meet was ousted and thus consolidate power), never openly speaking out in favor of any one side, regardless of which side, regardless of saying 'hey fanatics knock it off', was exactly the opposite of what was needed. All she did, and all she could do at the end, was try desperately to maintain the status quo in a situation that would absolutely not remain stable forever.

Why does Anders kill the Grand Cleric? He states exactly why, and so have many of the posters here. Because she was THE only hope for another compromise, and 'there is no compromise'. The horrifying part is that he's probably right. 'Compromise' in this situation, compromise as it has always been in this situation in Kirkwall, is maintaining the status quo. But the status quo in any Circle is a gross imbalance of power that essentially boils down to people imprisoned for the possibility of being dangerous and their appointed overseers and jailers who have a considerable amount of leeway in what they're allowed to do to said prisoners (and in practice, at times go much farther than they're allowed). The status quo in Kirkwall is even worse, because Meridith holds all of the real power and is getting so bad that her own Templars are turning against her and helping their charges to escape her grasp. Maintaining the status quo, working out another compromise in yet another argument between Meredith and Orsino, would have only guaranteed two things: that the abuses would continue, they just would not, for a time, get too much worse (within the Grand Cleric's hearing anyway), and that this situation would happen again. And again, and again, and again, until the Grand Cleric was no longer able to be the voice of reason or until all the mages were gone or until open rebellion happened anyway.

Attacking the Templars would have been sensible, but would not have forced the Circles to fight for their own survival. Further, mages are always attacking Templars. The peoples of Thedas are used to this. Oh, mages going nuts and the valiant templars have to put them down. Those are deaths they are used to and summarily tend to comfortably ignore. Templar deaths would not have made people sit up and take notice in the way that blowing up a grand Cathedral and a beloved old priestess did. Suddenly, it's everyone's problem.

So he kills a woman who absolutely did not deserve to die and anyone else unlucky enough to be in that building at the wrong time. He does something that horrifies everyone, in public, in front of the Knight-Commander and the First Enchanter, and confesses to exactly why he did it and exactly why he felt it was necessary. Meredith's response? To order the death of every single mage in the Free Marches. Remember, this isn't just Kirkwall's mage population. There are only two Circles in the Free Marches, and Starkhaven's is gone, with the survivors shipped to Kirkwall or escaped. Every mage complying with the Chantry's orders (or being held against their will) is sentenced to death for the actions of a longtime apostate who has never been a member of the Kirkwall Circle. And now the Circle mages have no choice either. They can either fight--a fight they'll lose, have a look at how many Templars are there in the end--, flee, or lay down and die. They're desperate, they're terrified, they're going to be cut down without remorse--every man, woman and child--and they literally have nothing left to lose. Of COURSE there are so many demons and abominations running loose in the finale. What's the point of resisting the demons when you're going to get murdered regardless, and no one's going to care whether you were valiantly resisting temptation to the end because your body is going to get burned on some mass pyre somewhere and no one will ever know what happened to you? To quote Orsino: "Why don't they drown us at birth? Why wait so long? Why give us the illusion of hope?"

This last quest may as well have been titled 'Despair'. Everyone seems to be falling victim to it. It drives Anders to do something horrifying, Orsino and a whole lot of his Circle to become abominations, and I would even say that it was a prime factor in Meredith's insanity as well (her expression just before Anders blows the Chantry is telling).
It is horrific and twisted my emotions in knots and I love it because it's complex.

To answer the initial question after that giant spiel, however, my Hawke spared Anders. She was furious with him, felt betrayed, but at the same time had lost so much and so many people that losing the man she was in love with was something she couldn't bring herself to do, at least not then, not at that moment of crisis where killing or not killing him wasn't going to stop what was happening. Do I think it was the right decision? I have no idea. I let that be her great big questionable act, and it works well for her story.

Modifié par Kartikeya, 21 mars 2011 - 11:46 .


#517
FoggyEthan

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As to Anders return in DA:3, even if Bioware assumes he died, Vengeance will return to the fade, right? So perhaps what returns to the fade is a Vengeance/Anders combo-spirit, given that they have become inseparable. So you could meet him again in the fade, or he could take a new body.

I see a lot of people arguing the morality back and forth here. My problem with it is that I can't reconcile the events depicted in the story with the concept that it's safe to have free mages. It seems that almost every mage is capable of, on the spot, being possessed by a powerful spirit while summoning dozens more, all happily killing anyone and anything. No training required! And many seem very willing to do it, even earlier in the game. Given the sheer number of blood mages and abominations in DA:2, Meredith would seem to be right.

But in DA:O, when Ferelden's circle exploded, it was unexpected. Mages becoming abominations was definitely not routine. And most of the mages in the tower were victims, not conspirators. So either Kirkwall's circle had something very different (beyond just Meredith's repression), or the canon has changed.

Comparisons with Tevinter seem off since most mages in the Imperium aren't willingly becoming abominations. If it's so easy to become an abomination, what is preventing it in the Imperium? This isn't revealed.

So basically I don't think we can come to a resolution on the moral issues because I don't think the story is sufficiently consistent. I had romanced anders, let him leave after what he did, then killed him in the following scene when surprisingly he got ahead of me after I left him behind. (I thought magic could not allow teleportation? Did he get a working mirror?) And I was not amused when, during the wrap-up, Varric explains that he stayed with me after I had (traumatically) killed him.

The wrap-up was really strange and disappointing.

#518
FoggyEthan

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I forgot to mention: I don't understand all the sympathy for the Grand Cleric. Yes, she was superficially the voice of reason. But she didn't actually do anything to bring about peace. Meredith was become crazier every passing year, putting crueler restrictions on the mages, and she never found that it passed the point of requiring intervention. So while I don't think she "deserved to die", she was allowing Meredith to do whatever she wanted.

#519
randName

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First time I did, felt most natural for that Hawk ~ a character that had no problem killing dangerous people, and she was neither a kind nor a angry person (jovial and loose), she preferred jousting and walking the grey, and not slaughter or making examples. For her own sake alone Anders would have died, as he destroyed all she had fought for, and fot ruining the balance and killing indiscriminately doubly so, so I found the melodrama as she did unfitting her as she would just have slipped the blade over his throat without any fuss or watery eyes.

2nd Hawk didn't, as it felt more natural for that Hawk not to, as she was more ruthless, and had less issues with blowing up the roof to get what she wanted, and she would have largely agreed with Anders.



That said I liked this part of the end, save how the explosion looked, but this was the only bright spot of the endgame.

Killing Anders ~

Modifié par randName, 11 avril 2011 - 08:31 .


#520
Plaintiff

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Nope, and I don't plan to. I despise the Chantry and everyone even remotely connected to it. As the only character who recognizes that drastic measures need to be taken, Anders is my hero.

#521
Plaintiff

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cglasgow wrote...

Lobsel... What's the primary objection to the Tevinter Imperium?  That its society is evil.

Therefore, to make the claim 'its not like Tevinter!' is to say that its society is a decent place.

So quit trying to have it both ways.   You want to say that free mages are ruling a decent and free land, you are most definitely talking about "social conditions", as 'decent' and 'free' both are what?

So, color me epically unimpressed with your 'I wasn't talking about social conditions, I was just saying that its not like Tevinter' argument.   The entire point of the discussion is whether its possible to let mages run free without the whole place turning into a pit.

To be fair, we have no idea what Tevinter is like. Most of our information comes from an obviously biased former slave with amnesia. His experiences are pretty limited.

#522
Morlanwen

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Of course not! Leliana annoyed me in DA: O with her Chantry, her Maker, her skewed perspective on the elves. Find someone who finally told me that the chantry was evil, how could I have killed him?
Besides the PR, my  "revolutionary" ideas (without having the courage) prevented me from backstab him ;)

#523
Sabariel

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Nope. No one ever kills Anders. Ever. Even if they said they did, they didn't. They're just lying :)

Plaintiff wrote...

cglasgow wrote...

Lobsel... What's the primary objection to the Tevinter Imperium?  That its society is evil.

Therefore, to make the claim 'its not like Tevinter!' is to say that its society is a decent place.

So
quit trying to have it both ways.   You want to say that free mages are
ruling a decent and free land, you are most definitely talking about
"social conditions", as 'decent' and 'free' both are what?

So,
color me epically unimpressed with your 'I wasn't talking about social
conditions, I was just saying that its not like Tevinter' argument.  
The entire point of the discussion is whether its possible to let mages run free without the whole place turning into a pit.

To
be fair, we have no idea what Tevinter is like. Most of our information
comes from an obviously biased former slave with amnesia. His
experiences are pretty limited.


Pretty much anyone who's been/goes to Tevinter comes back with the same opinion:  "It's an effing scary place."

It's not just Fenris who thinks so. If you don't make him Tranquil Feynriel sends you a letter with (basically) the aforementioned opinion.

Modifié par Sabariel, 11 avril 2011 - 09:46 .


#524
Plaintiff

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Sabariel wrote...

Nope. No one ever kills Anders. Ever. Even if they said they did, they didn't. They're just lying :)

Plaintiff wrote...

cglasgow wrote...

Lobsel... What's the primary objection to the Tevinter Imperium?  That its society is evil.

Therefore, to make the claim 'its not like Tevinter!' is to say that its society is a decent place.

So
quit trying to have it both ways.   You want to say that free mages are
ruling a decent and free land, you are most definitely talking about
"social conditions", as 'decent' and 'free' both are what?

So,
color me epically unimpressed with your 'I wasn't talking about social
conditions, I was just saying that its not like Tevinter' argument.  
The entire point of the discussion is whether its possible to let mages run free without the whole place turning into a pit.

To
be fair, we have no idea what Tevinter is like. Most of our information
comes from an obviously biased former slave with amnesia. His
experiences are pretty limited.


Pretty much anyone who's been/goes to Tevinter comes back with the same opinion:  "It's an effing scary place."

It's not just Fenris who thinks so. If you don't make him Tranquil Feynriel sends you a letter with (basically) the aforementioned opinion.

I'm still going to reserve judgement until Bioware sees fit to show us Tevinter society first hand. In general, I want to know as much as I can before I form an opinion.

#525
Rifneno

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Plaintiff wrote...

Nope, and I don't plan to. I despise the Chantry and everyone even remotely connected to it. As the only character who recognizes that drastic measures need to be taken, Anders is my hero.


Hell yes.  We need an Anders avatar in the DA stock photos section.  He should be honored!