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[Ryzaki]

TheJist wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

TheJist wrote...

He just start possibly the most destructive war to ever hit thedas pretty sure that isn't helping the world for the better.

 

And again we don't know what'll happen when the ashes settle. Unless you care to tell me the plot of DA3 and the rest of the future DA games?  

Sometimes you need to break some eggs to make omelets. 

War isn't a pretty thing. But there are several wars that changed things for the better. 

For some but here we are with the only ones who really gain anything are the minority who are the mages while the rest of thedas stands to lose a lot from a war.

Actually plenty of people stand togain something. Mages have families, and mages powers can be used to benefit everyone not just the Chantry. 

[Blackout62]

Well duh, he can't be a Che-esque martyr to the revolution if he's still alive.

Didn't Gaider actually comment somewhere that they'd jokingly considered a Che T-shirt with Ander's face?

[LobselVith8]

Blackout62 wrote...

Well duh, he can't be a Che-esque martyr to the revolution if he's still alive.

Didn't Gaider actually comment somewhere that they'd jokingly considered a Che T-shirt with Ander's face?

If it ends up being anything like Che, you'll have a bunch of people wearing his face on their shirt and thinking he's the lead singer of Rage Against the Machine.

[Obadiah]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

thesuperdarkone wrote...

Never killed him. I try to redeem him. Look at these links and tell me that he's still a terrorist:


http://www.youtube.c.../39/x0Edo7-ti8E

He is still a terrorist, without a doubt.

A terrorist is defined by their actions, not their afterthoughts.

I don't care that Anders felt bad afterwards.  He blew up the Chantry, started a war that would spread across Thedas, and possibly caused millions of deaths.

Seriously. He didn't say anything like that in my playthough - just that he was glad he did it and my killing him would make him a martyre. I executed him anyway. "Win win" I guess except for, well, EVERYONE ELSE.

Modifié par Obadiah, 14 avril 2011 - 01:38 .

[Heimdall]

My first Hawke was a male rogue mage supporter (But not very anti-Templar if truth be told, he was sort of in favor of reforming the current system, not violent revolt). Even though they were friends he couldn't forgive Anders for what he did and making Hawke an unwitting part of it. But Bethany was still in the circle and the circle hadn't been part of it so he killed Anders and ran to Orsino.

My second Hawke was a pro mage anti Templar female mage in a romantic relationship with Anders. So she spared him and they fought for the mages together.

My third and most recent was a female warrior with a deep distrust for mages. Since she was quite bitter over her mother's death and Bethany had died in the deep roads, there was no real conflict of interest in her siding with the Templars. Of course, Anders was killed. Hawke was angry and had never really liked him anyway.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
You also need someone who knows how to make an omelet in the first place and not just smash eggs into a wall and expect them to become omelets by themselves.

He didn't just smash them into a wall. More like threw them all into a bowl. 

There's shells everywhere but only time'll tell if you can cook with that (if you bother getting all the shells out) or it'll be thrown out. 

If by bowl you mean the necessary tool / foundation to make omelets / a new society, then Anders did not bother to have a bowl at all. Blowing the Chantry seems to be the greatest extent of his "planning". He left no foundation, designed no tool and provided no plan for long term change.

And if long term change does happen and something positive comes out of this mess, then it's solely the people who thought, planned and worked (or cooked) to achieve it that deserve credit. Not Anders imo.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 avril 2011 - 03:34 .

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
You also need someone who knows how to make an omelet in the first place and not just smash eggs into a wall and expect them to become omelets by themselves.

He didn't just smash them into a wall. More like threw them all into a bowl. 

There's shells everywhere but only time'll tell if you can cook with that (if you bother getting all the shells out) or it'll be thrown out. 

If by bowl you mean the necessary tool / foundation to make omelets / a new society, then Anders did not bother to have a bowl at all. Blowing the Chantry seems to be the greatest extent of his "planning". He left no foundation, designed no tool and provided no plan for long term change.

And if long term change does happen and something positive comes out of this mess, then it's solely the people who thought, planned and worked (or cooked) to achieve it that deserve credit. Not Anders imo.

Bowls aren't necessary to make omelets. Believe me I know.  (You do not want to know the disasters of my cooking. Or how...creative. I can get.) 

And I agree. Anders doesn't deserve credit for anything other than lighting the match to start the stove. Because like it or not that's what he did. If he hadn't blown up the Chantry Meredith's Kill the Mages wouldn't have looked so unjust. Without that the mages wouldn't have rose up and broken free of the chantries (I don't think it makes much sense but that's what the narrative says). 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 avril 2011 - 03:45 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
Bowls aren't necessary to make omelets. Believe me I know.  (You do not want to know the disasters of my cooking. Or how...creative. I can get.)

.....Did you make good  omelets at least?

Ryzaki wrote...
And
I agree. Anders doesn't deserve credit for anything other than lighting
the match to start the stove. Because like it or not that's what he
did. If he hadn't blown up the Chantry Meredith's Kill the Mages
wouldn't have looked so unjust. Without that the mages wouldn't have
rose up and broken free of the chantries (I don't think it makes much
sense but that's what the narrative says). 

On the other hand, he probably made 99% of the population despises mages now, despite the fact that they were sympathising (but he was too paranoid to notice).

Setting a spark is easy, I wouldn't give him any credit. Anyone else could have done the same.
Especially sicne he has no basis to decide the fate of every other mage, by forcing a conflict when it didn't necessarily have to happen.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 avril 2011 - 03:49 .

[Joy Divison]

Anders is more Gavrilo Princip than Che Guevara.

Maybe if Princip wore a fashionable hat, college sophomores would think its cool to wear a T-shirt with his face on it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Joy Divison wrote...

Anders is more Gavrilo Princip than Che Guevara.

Maybe if Princip wore a fashionable hat, college sophomores would think its cool to wear a T-shirt with his face on it.

Or maybe if he was a stubborn vocal opponent of capitalism, will his face and name become a brand to fuel the very system he was opposing.

That is the ultimate defeat.

[Joy Divison]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Anders is more Gavrilo Princip than Che Guevara.

Maybe if Princip wore a fashionable hat, college sophomores would think its cool to wear a T-shirt with his face on it.

Or maybe if he was a stubborn vocal opponent of capitalism, will his face and name become a brand to fuel the very system he was opposing.

That is the ultimate defeat.

But ironic as all hell

[LobselVith8]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Sometimes you need to break some eggs to make omelets. 

You also need someone who knows how to make an omelet in the first place and not just smash eggs into a wall and expect them to become omelets by themselves.

Do you think there's going to be any impact to keeping Anders alive or killing him? The only thing I can imagine is Hawke having a possible future in Starkhaven if Anders is killed at Sebastian's request.

I'd imagine that an expansion would address how his fate could come into play, but since a pro-mage Hawke is the hero of the mages in the Circles of Magi, I'm not sure what would happen with Anders since he seems to be losing control to Justice more and more (which seems more pronounced in the rivalry scenes) or how he would be remembered if he's killed (much less what Justice might do in the Fade once he's seperated from Anders).

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

.....Did you make good  omelets at least?  

Depends. I think they're delicious. My mom says they're disgusting. 

On the other hand, he probably made 99% of the population despises mages now, despite the fact that they were sympathising (but he was too paranoid to notice).

Setting a spark is easy, I wouldn't give him any credit. Anyone else could have done the same.
Especially sicne he has no basis to decide the fate of every other mage, by forcing a conflict when it didn't necessarily have to happen.

That is true. But he forced everyone to take a side now. The Chantry was as powerful as ever before he blew that chantry up. 

And I doubt 99% ofthe population despised mages. If they did there would be no hesistance for war. 

Maybe. Someone else could. 

And yes I agree he had no right to do that. Several of my Hawkes wanted a "Beat the crap out of him but leave him alive" option. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

LobselVith8 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Sometimes you need to break some eggs to make omelets. 

You also need someone who knows how to make an omelet in the first place and not just smash eggs into a wall and expect them to become omelets by themselves.

Do you think there's going to be any impact to keeping Anders alive or killing him? The only thing I can imagine is Hawke having a possible future in Starkhaven if Anders is killed at Sebastian's request.

No, I don't think there will be that much if any impact.

What I do doubt is Anders doing anything worthwile if kept alive, his situation is clearly detoriating and with the horros of war (that he unleashed) his situation can only get worse.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
That is true. But he forced everyone to take a side now. The Chantry was as powerful as ever before he blew that chantry up.

Actually, the Chantry was at its weakest already. Libertarians growing stronger (as per Awakening). Resolutionists popping up. Chantry infighting, especially vis a vis the new Divine. And it's inability to control Meredith. Ander's act revealed its weakness, but didn't create it.

If he had an actual plan, I would have given him credit for exposing a weakness. But they are meant to be exploited and Anders had nothing to exploit that weakness. Not to mention that they were better ways to expose it while strengthening the position of mages.

And I doubt 99% ofthe population despised mages. If they did there would be no hesistance for war. 

An exagerrated number, but I am pretty sure most would be horrifed by mages now.
Seekers may not want war, because they sare seeing the Chantry collapsing.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Actually, the Chantry was at its weakest already. Libertarians growing stronger (as per Awakening). Resolutionists popping up. Chantry infighting, especially vis a vis the new Divine. And it's inability to control Meredith. Ander's act revealed its weakness, but didn't create it.

If he had an actual plan, I would have given him credit for exposing a weakness. But they are meant to be exploited and Anders had nothing to exploit that weakness. Not to mention that they were better ways to expose it while strengthening the position of mages.

An exagerrated number, but I am pretty sure most would be horrifed by mages now.
Seekers may not want war, because they sare seeing the Chantry collapsing.

Wasn't that supposedly going to be solved by a Divine March? It focused on Kirkwall. All eyes were there so to say. The Chantry I assume wanted to make a show but they waited too long. 

What would've been a better way to expose it then? 

I'm pretty sure it's not even most. They might be horrified by Anders' actions but they don't seem to blame mages as a whole for that. (If so that mage rebellion would've ended real quick). 

The Chantry's collapse seems to also be due to it tearing itself apart on the issue. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
Wasn't that supposedly going to be solved by a Divine March? It focused on Kirkwall. All eyes were there so to say. The Chantry I assume wanted to make a show but they waited too long.

It was still undecided. And even if they dide, it's a show of weakness, to declare an Exalted March on an Andrastrian country. Add to that the Orlesian Nevarran rivlary and how it would translate. Chantry and Orlesian interests are seemingly inntertwined.

What would've been a better way to expose it then?

To build an opposition front against Meredith by rallying the commoners who we know sympathize with mages and despise Templars, nobles who we know dislike Meredith for not allowing  a Viscount and clamping down on some noble houses, guardsmen who love Aveline and hate Meredith for tryign to encroach on them, and finally Templars who are opposed to Meredith and we know many were kepitcal from Act two includign the hardcore Cullen. And of course mages.

If such an opposition front managed to oust Meredith, it will show that the Chantry didn't have a say in this and was unable to protect one of its Knight Commanders. Not only could that be used as a foundation for gradual change, but it's also a big step to "secularize" the Circle system.

That would have have been more efficient and impressive (and thus more difficult) than blowing up the Chantry.

I'm pretty sure it's not even most. They might be horrified by Anders' actions but they don't seem to blame mages as a whole for that. (If so that mage rebellion would've ended real quick).

Only the people of Kirkwall sympathise with mages, the rest don't. I very much doubt they changfed their mind after one of them blew up a chantry. But we still know very little about this, heck even Gaider hitned that it's not what it looks like. That maybe there isn't a contiental revolution.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It was still undecided. And even if they dide, it's a show of weakness, to declare an Exalted March on an Andrastrian country. Add to that the Orlesian Nevarran rivlary and how it would translate. Chantry and Orlesian interests are seemingly inntertwined.

Ah. 

To build an opposition front against Meredith by rallying the commoners who we know sympathize with mages and despise Templars, nobles who we know dislike Meredith for not allowing  a Viscount and clamping down on some noble houses, guardsmen who love Aveline and hate Meredith for tryign to encroach on them, and finally Templars who are opposed to Meredith and we know many were kepitcal from Act two includign the hardcore Cullen. And of course mages. 

If such an opposition front managed to oust Meredith, it will show that the Chantry didn't have a say in this and was unable to protect one of its Knight Commanders. Not only could that be used as a foundation for gradual change, but it's also a big step to "secularize" the Circle system.

That would have have been more efficient and impressive (and thus more difficult) than blowing up the Chantry.

Indeed. I do wonder why Hawke didn't do that from the jump other than plotdumb. 

Only the people of Kirkwall sympathise with mages, the rest don't. I very much doubt they changfed their mind after one of them blew up a chantry. But we still know very little about this, heck even Gaider hitned that it's not what it looks like. That maybe there isn't a contiental revolution. 

That's...a very strong statement to make seeing as we've only seen Fereldan and Kirkwall's reactions to mages for ourselves. 

Flemeth had something to do with it. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
Indeed. I do wonder why Hawke didn't do that from the jump other than plotdumb.

Because he / she is lazy.

Only the people of Kirkwall sympathise with mages, the rest don't.

That's...a very strong statement to make seeing as we've only seen Fereldan and Kirkwall's reactions to mages for ourselves.

Cullen, in both letter (to Meredith) and person, says that it's unprecendented for common people to help mages against Templars. Even in Ferelden, people were not fan of mages and you hear gossipers sometimes sayign that they should all be killed. 

I may not be 100%, but it seems to be that way.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 avril 2011 - 04:58 .

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Indeed. I do wonder why Hawke didn't do that from the jump other than plotdumb.

Because he / she is lazy.

Cullen, in both letter (to Meredith) and person, says that it's unprecendented for common people to help mages against Templars. Even in Ferelden, people were not fan of mages and you hear gossipers sometimes sayign that they should all be killed. 

I may not be 100%, but it seems to be that way.

Cullen's from Fereldan. And we don't here about him being from anywhere else. So unless he was in someone other than Fereldan and Kirkwall...? 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
Cullen's from Fereldan. And we don't here about him being from anywhere else. So unless he was in someone other than Fereldan and Kirkwall...? 

General historical knowledge?

I doubt that many countries had as much commoner sympathy for mages as Kirkwall, to the point of actively assisting them against Templars. You probably had a few everywhere, but doubtful in high numbers.

But yea, I don't know perse. But seeing how Andrastrianism is still strong, I doubt most people would sympathize with the mages, especially not now.

[graavigala85]

 Killed Anders faster than he could say cat. Sided with templars and mages but siding with templars just feels more right. ALl of the mages ou are supposed to care are nothing but crazy bloodmages... Bioware sure did nice job in creating onesided story

[HighMoon]

I do hope Sebastian doesn't follow through on his threat of burning Kirkwall to the ground. Something tells me I am going to run into him again one day, perhaps in an expansion? And if that's the case, things aren't going to be pretty, considering I romanced Anders and ran away with him. We're both wanted apostates.

[Joy Divison]

The game should have had an option to kill Sebastion when he defects.

[judas_kisser]

I couldn't kill him coz I needed his healing skills. >_<