2340 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

He blew up the Chantry, yes. The templars' reaction is up to them.

[TJPags]

As is the reaction of people all over the world.

And frankly, someone blows up the Chantry, do you honestly think hell won't break loose?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

He blew up the Chantry, yes. The templars' reaction is up to them.

Um, so if a country launched ICBMs to another and the other retaliated and declared war, it's the latter who is responsable?

EDIT: actually wait bad example. But Anders certainly wanted war. Meredith like an idiot did what he wanted.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 avril 2011 - 02:05 .

[Xilizhra]

Indeed it is a bad example, given that Anders is an apostate with no Circle ties. It'd be like a more-or-less lone terrorist blowing up a building and attacking an unrelated country for--oh, wait...

And it's true that Anders wanted war, but he wasn't controlling the templars and he wasn't acting as part of a nation or organization. If Meredith simply killed him, then that would make sense. Alas, 'twas not the reaction.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...
And it's true that Anders wanted war, but he wasn't controlling the templars and he wasn't acting as part of a nation or organization. If Meredith simply killed him, then that would make sense. Alas, 'twas not the reaction.

I agree, both Anders and Meredith are fools. Anders for provking and knowing full well what would happen, and Meredith for taking the bait.

[Xilizhra]

I don't know if Anders deserves to be called a fool; if the Circles really did rise up, he was certainly right about them wanting their freedom.

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't know if Anders deserves to be called a fool; if the Circles really did rise up, he was certainly right about them wanting their freedom.

This.  A million times, this.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't know if Anders deserves to be called a fool; if the Circles really did rise up, he was certainly right about them wanting their freedom.

We do not know the circumstances of the rebellion and if it wasn't Templars cracking down on all other Circles.  Which in turn prompted the rebellion.

In either case, he is a pseudo-abomination who has no control of himself, displayed no amount of above average intelligence, no leadership qualities, no concret plans or visions for the future, no consideration for 99% of the population. A shell of a man operating with naive detached ideals and very little concret. And who has no basis or qualification to represent mages and help start a war they did not want (otherwise, they would have done it a long time ago). If the Circles do succeed, he gets no credit, for he didn't do any of the hard work.

So yea, I think he fully deserves to be called a short sighted naive reckless fool who represents no one except himself and his pseudo-insanity. The perfect punishment would have been tranquilization, but sadly Meredith is as idiotic as he. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 avril 2011 - 02:30 .

[Ryzaki]

KoP I doubt tranquilization would've worked. Justice carries a piece of the fade around in Anders. (as a means of control I'm sure).

I want to make sure both Anders *and* Justice aren't a threat to anyone. I just need to find a way to destroy Justice.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...

KoP I doubt tranquilization would've worked. Justice carries a piece of the fade around in Anders. (as a means of control I'm sure).

I want to make sure both Anders *and* Justice aren't a threat to anyone. I just need to find a way to destroy Justice.

To sate popular bloodlust and not make Anders a martyr, tranquilization would be a viable option. If possible.

I am more interested in Justice than Anders wellbeing to be honest. A spirit turning demon is an interesting development, worth studying.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 avril 2011 - 02:34 .

[Rifneno]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

We do not know the circumstances of the rebellion and if it wasn't Templars cracking down on all other Circles.  Which in turn prompted the rebellion.

In either case, he is a pseudo-abomination who has no control of himself, displayed no amount of above average intelligence, no leadership qualities, no concret plans or visions for the future, no consideration for 99% of the population. A shell of a man operating with naive detached ideals and very little concret. And who has no basis or qualification to represent mages and help start a war they did not want (otherwise, they would have done it a long time ago). If the Circles do succeed, he gets no credit, for he didn't do any of the hard work.

So yea, I think he fully deserves to be called a short sighted naive reckless fool who represents no one except himself and his pseudo-insanity. The perfect punishment would have been tranquilization, but sadly Meredith is as idiotic as he. 

Just because you dispise him doesn't mean he was wrong (and I mean wrong as in correct vs incorrect, not moral vs immoral).  He certainly did have a plan and it worked like a charm.  Mages have been oppressed by the Chantry for 1,000 years.  If he stopped another 1,000 years of it by triggering a rebellion then he'll have saved many times the lives he cost.

Also, I'd say the fact he got his hands on the recipe for the black power as something "above average intelligence" or planning.  No one has gotten it from the qunari before.  It is probably the most valuable secret in the world (of Thedas... or Earth at the same era).

[Xilizhra]

Anders never positioned himself as a leader. He was the igniting spark and nothing more.

[TJPags]

Xilizhra wrote...

Anders never positioned himself as a leader. He was the igniting spark and nothing more.

But who chose him to be the spark?  Who asked him to be the spark?  Did he poll all the mages?  Some of them? Any of them?

This was one man, deciding that the time was now for a rebellion, without any indication that the people he decided should rebel WANTED to rebel.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Rifneno wrote...
Just because you dispise him doesn't mean he was wrong (and I mean wrong as in correct vs incorrect, not moral vs immoral).  He certainly did have a plan and it worked like a charm.  Mages have been oppressed by the Chantry for 1,000 years.  If he stopped another 1,000 years of it by triggering a rebellion then he'll have saved many times the lives he cost.

Also, I'd say the fact he got his hands on the recipe for the black power as something "above average intelligence" or planning.  No one has gotten it from the qunari before.  It is probably the most valuable secret in the world (of Thedas... or Earth at the same era).

I do not despise him. He is and remains my second favorite companion and I sympathize.

There was no plan other than starting a rebellion. Then what? What are his plans for during the rebellion? And more importantly, after? How does he plan to gain the trust of 99% of the population? How does he plan to deal with possessions (of course the half-abomination probably dismissed that)? Too many questions left unanswred for me to think that Anders had anything remotely resembling a plan other than blowing up a Chantry ( a very simple task).

Knowing how to build a bomb and acquire the recipe does not make one a statesman or leader. 
Furthermore it's not clear he used Qunari explosives.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

Anders never positioned himself as a leader. He was the igniting spark and nothing more.

And he should not. Only a leader who knows exactly what he wants to do, and who represents someone other than himself, should make that spark.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
Just because you dispise him doesn't mean he was wrong (and I mean wrong as in correct vs incorrect, not moral vs immoral).  He certainly did have a plan and it worked like a charm.  Mages have been oppressed by the Chantry for 1,000 years.  If he stopped another 1,000 years of it by triggering a rebellion then he'll have saved many times the lives he cost.

Also, I'd say the fact he got his hands on the recipe for the black power as something "above average intelligence" or planning.  No one has gotten it from the qunari before.  It is probably the most valuable secret in the world (of Thedas... or Earth at the same era).

I do not despise him. He is and remains my second favorite companion and I sympathize.

There was no plan other than starting a rebellion. Then what? What are his plans for during the rebellion? And more importantly, after? How does he plan to gain the trust of 99% of the population? How does he plan to deal with possessions (of course the half-abomination probably dismissed that)? Too many questions left unanswred for me to think that Anders had anything remotely resembling a plan other than blowing up a Chantry ( a very simple task).

Knowing how to build a bomb and acquire the recipe does not make one a statesman or leader. 
Furthermore it's not clear he used Qunari explosives.

The bomb looked far more magical in nature. 

[Rifneno]

TJPags wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Anders never positioned himself as a leader. He was the igniting spark and nothing more.

But who chose him to be the spark?  Who asked him to be the spark?  Did he poll all the mages?  Some of them? Any of them?

This was one man, deciding that the time was now for a rebellion, without any indication that the people he decided should rebel WANTED to rebel.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

[Rifneno]

Ryzaki wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
Just because you dispise him doesn't mean he was wrong (and I mean wrong as in correct vs incorrect, not moral vs immoral).  He certainly did have a plan and it worked like a charm.  Mages have been oppressed by the Chantry for 1,000 years.  If he stopped another 1,000 years of it by triggering a rebellion then he'll have saved many times the lives he cost.

Also, I'd say the fact he got his hands on the recipe for the black power as something "above average intelligence" or planning.  No one has gotten it from the qunari before.  It is probably the most valuable secret in the world (of Thedas... or Earth at the same era).

I do not despise him. He is and remains my second favorite companion and I sympathize.

There was no plan other than starting a rebellion. Then what? What are his plans for during the rebellion? And more importantly, after? How does he plan to gain the trust of 99% of the population? How does he plan to deal with possessions (of course the half-abomination probably dismissed that)? Too many questions left unanswred for me to think that Anders had anything remotely resembling a plan other than blowing up a Chantry ( a very simple task).

Knowing how to build a bomb and acquire the recipe does not make one a statesman or leader. 
Furthermore it's not clear he used Qunari explosives.

The bomb looked far more magical in nature. 

It clearly had some magic added, most likely of the "force" school.  However the components he has you gather on the Justice quest are thinly veiled Thedas-type names for components of the real life "black powder" recipe.  So yes, he did have it.

[Ryzaki]

Rifneno wrote...

It clearly had some magic added, most likely of the "force" school.  However the components he has you gather on the Justice quest are thinly veiled Thedas-type names for components of the real life "black powder" recipe.  So yes, he did have it.

Uh...no. He might've had a normal type of bomb. (That was said to use magical components) The Qunari bombs didn't need magic. 

You can't say he did have it for sure. 

[Maugrim]

Rifneno wrote...

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

Oh hell no...I happen to be going through the Pulitzer Prize winning biography of John Adams by David McCullough.  Just wrapped up the years covering the Continental Congress  meeting (College of Magi meeting in Cumberland) leading to Independance(War with Chantry).  Franklin amongst others was one of the many who strove for complete unity for the declaration.  Bad quote is bad.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 24 avril 2011 - 02:54 .

[TJPags]

Rifneno wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Anders never positioned himself as a leader. He was the igniting spark and nothing more.

But who chose him to be the spark?  Who asked him to be the spark?  Did he poll all the mages?  Some of them? Any of them?

This was one man, deciding that the time was now for a rebellion, without any indication that the people he decided should rebel WANTED to rebel.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

Fabulous quote.

So you're going to go with one man has the right to decide for every mage?

[Xilizhra]

I don't think that black powder alone could be enough to blow up the Chantry unless he smuggled a whole room full of the stuff in; it needed a magical kick, but it's definitely using black powder and I don't believe the qunari "gaatlok" would be so revolutionary if black powder was already known.

[Rifneno]

Ryzaki wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

It clearly had some magic added, most likely of the "force" school.  However the components he has you gather on the Justice quest are thinly veiled Thedas-type names for components of the real life "black powder" recipe.  So yes, he did have it.

Uh...no. He might've had a normal type of bomb. (That was said to use magical components) The Qunari bombs didn't need magic. 

You can't say he did have it for sure. 

Yes, I can.  "Black powder" is exactly what it was called for centuries after its discovery on Earth.  And it's made from what Anders was gathering.  You're arguing that a cake is no longer a cake if you add chocolate.  Not that I'm surprised.

TJPags wrote...
Fabulous quote.

So you're going to go with one man has the right to decide for every mage?

I'm going for "anyone who has a chance to fight for freedom but would rather submit to oppression from rapists and murderers deserves whatever they get."  No, I have absolutely no sympathy whatsoever for any mage too cowardly to fight for basic human rights.

[Ryzaki]

...*rubs temples* You know what. Nevermind.

makenzieshepard wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

Oh hell no...I happen to be going through the Pulitzer Prize winning biography of John Adams by David McCullough.  Just wrapped up the years covering the Continental Congress  meeting (College of Magi meeting in Cumberland) leading to Independance(War with Chantry).  Franklin amongst others was one of the many who strove for complete unity for the declaration.  Bad quote is bad.

Awesome makenzieshepard. I could kiss you. 
 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 avril 2011 - 03:02 .

[Plaintiff]

TJPags wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Anders never positioned himself as a leader. He was the igniting spark and nothing more.

But who chose him to be the spark?  Who asked him to be the spark?  Did he poll all the mages?  Some of them? Any of them?

This was one man, deciding that the time was now for a rebellion, without any indication that the people he decided should rebel WANTED to rebel.

Who asked Martin Luther King to campaign for civil rights? Who asked suffragettes to demand the right to vote? Who asked homosexuals to start campaigning for the right to marry?

Nobody, that's who. Revolutions start because individuals perceive blatant injustice and decide to take action. If everybody sat around picking at their navels, waiting for permission to rebel, social reform would never occur.

"Polite" rebellion was not a viable choice. If Anders went down to the Gallows and started handing out pamphlets, he would be captured and made Tranquil, if not executed outright. The mages do not have the option of debating or reasoning with their oppressors.