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[TJPags]

Rifneno wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Fabulous quote.

So you're going to go with one man has the right to decide for every mage?

I'm going for "anyone who has a chance to fight for freedom but would rather submit to oppression from rapists and murderers deserves whatever they get."  No, I have absolutely no sympathy whatsoever for any mage too cowardly to fight for basic human rights.

Well, I'll ignore the "basic human rights" part of that, and just move on to:

Then I guess we should kill all the mages in the Kirkwall Circle, no?

[Xilizhra]

I'm going for "anyone who has a chance to fight for freedom but would rather submit to oppression from rapists and murderers deserves whatever they get." No, I have absolutely no sympathy whatsoever for any mage too cowardly to fight for basic human rights.

Erm... that there is going a bit far. The point of blowing up the Chantry, in part, was to show that mages didn't have to be afraid anymore; the templars build a tremendous amount of their power on fear. It's hard for me to blame the mages for the templars doing that part of their job well.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Fabulous quote.

So you're going to go with one man has the right to decide for every mage?

I'm going for "anyone who has a chance to fight for freedom but would rather submit to oppression from rapists and murderers deserves whatever they get."  No, I have absolutely no sympathy whatsoever for any mage too cowardly to fight for basic human rights.

Well, I'll ignore the "basic human rights" part of that, and just move on to:

Then I guess we should kill all the mages in the Kirkwall Circle, no?

I could have confused him with the typical "kill the counter revolutionary scum within our ranks" type of speech.

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm going for "anyone who has a chance to fight for freedom but would rather submit to oppression from rapists and murderers deserves whatever they get." No, I have absolutely no sympathy whatsoever for any mage too cowardly to fight for basic human rights.

Erm... that there is going a bit far. The point of blowing up the Chantry, in part, was to show that mages didn't have to be afraid anymore; the templars build a tremendous amount of their power on fear. It's hard for me to blame the mages for the templars doing that part of their job well.

Perhaps.  But I'm certainly not going to say that rebellion is wrong because the Chantry's fearmongering tactics work, which is what he meant it as.

[TJPags]

Plaintiff wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Anders never positioned himself as a leader. He was the igniting spark and nothing more.

But who chose him to be the spark?  Who asked him to be the spark?  Did he poll all the mages?  Some of them? Any of them?

This was one man, deciding that the time was now for a rebellion, without any indication that the people he decided should rebel WANTED to rebel.

Who asked Martin Luther King to campaign for civil rights? Who asked suffragettes to demand the right to vote? Who asked homosexuals to start campaigning for the right to marry?

Nobody, that's who. Revolutions start because individuals perceive blatant injustice and decide to take action. If everybody sat around picking at their navels, waiting for permission to rebel, social reform would never occur.

"Polite" rebellion was not a viable choice. If Anders went down to the Gallows and started handing out pamphlets, he would be captured and made Tranquil, if not executed outright. The mages do not have the option of debating or reasoning with their oppressors.

All very true.  Except Martin Luther King did not act alone.  The suffragettes did not act alone.  Homosexuals are not acting alone.  Those who decared America's independance from Britain did not act alone.  Those who recently overthrew the Egyptian government did not act alone.  Those now fighting in Lybia are not acting alone.

That are - or were - all part of a group of like thinking individuals.

Uldred was part of a group.

Anders is one man.  He chose for everyone.  In fact, he chose for people he was not even part of - Circle mages.

[Rifneno]

Plaintiff wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Anders never positioned himself as a leader. He was the igniting spark and nothing more.

But who chose him to be the spark?  Who asked him to be the spark?  Did he poll all the mages?  Some of them? Any of them?

This was one man, deciding that the time was now for a rebellion, without any indication that the people he decided should rebel WANTED to rebel.

Who asked Martin Luther King to campaign for civil rights? Who asked suffragettes to demand the right to vote? Who asked homosexuals to start campaigning for the right to marry?

Nobody, that's who. Revolutions start because individuals perceive blatant injustice and decide to take action. If everybody sat around picking at their navels, waiting for permission to rebel, social reform would never occur.

"Polite" rebellion was not a viable choice. If Anders went down to the Gallows and started handing out pamphlets, he would be captured and made Tranquil, if not executed outright. The mages do not have the option of debating or reasoning with their oppressors.

OMG, stop using good examples from history!  The right solution was just to keep appealing to Elthina because after 7 years with her and 1,000 years with the Chantry itself I'm sure it was just a matter of making a good convincing argument.  Nobody had to die, the whole thing could've ended in rainbows and happy sunshine fun time.

[Urazz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't know if Anders deserves to be called a fool; if the Circles really did rise up, he was certainly right about them wanting their freedom.

We do not know the circumstances of the rebellion and if it wasn't Templars cracking down on all other Circles.  Which in turn prompted the rebellion.

In either case, he is a pseudo-abomination who has no control of himself, displayed no amount of above average intelligence, no leadership qualities, no concret plans or visions for the future, no consideration for 99% of the population. A shell of a man operating with naive detached ideals and very little concret. And who has no basis or qualification to represent mages and help start a war they did not want (otherwise, they would have done it a long time ago). If the Circles do succeed, he gets no credit, for he didn't do any of the hard work.

So yea, I think he fully deserves to be called a short sighted naive reckless fool who represents no one except himself and his pseudo-insanity. The perfect punishment would have been tranquilization, but sadly Meredith is as idiotic as he. 

Actually, I would say things did go the way he wanted with the Circles rebelling.  The only problem is that he has no clue how this rebellion will turn out.  For all he could know the rebellion could fail and make things worse for mages.

While most mages don't want this war, they do want freedom to live their lives though so they will fight in it now that it's started so they would avoid things becoming worse for them.  Anders just took the more speedier route I think instead of trying to change the circle itself I think.

[RavenB]

I think Anders had good reason to believe many mages didn't want things to continue as they were. You saw mages working towards the same basic ends all the time during Dragon Age II. The blood mages planting demons in the templars, those who worked with Thrask, the mage underground, the resolutionists. I don't really remember hearing from any mages who thought things were going great in Kirkwall. It seems blind to assume Anders didn't have good reason to think many would appreciate his actions just because he didn't have a specific, known group standing beside him when he did what he did.

[Plaintiff]

TJPags wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Anders never positioned himself as a leader. He was the igniting spark and nothing more.

But who chose him to be the spark?  Who asked him to be the spark?  Did he poll all the mages?  Some of them? Any of them?

This was one man, deciding that the time was now for a rebellion, without any indication that the people he decided should rebel WANTED to rebel.

Who asked Martin Luther King to campaign for civil rights? Who asked suffragettes to demand the right to vote? Who asked homosexuals to start campaigning for the right to marry?

Nobody, that's who. Revolutions start because individuals perceive blatant injustice and decide to take action. If everybody sat around picking at their navels, waiting for permission to rebel, social reform would never occur.

"Polite" rebellion was not a viable choice. If Anders went down to the Gallows and started handing out pamphlets, he would be captured and made Tranquil, if not executed outright. The mages do not have the option of debating or reasoning with their oppressors.

All very true.  Except Martin Luther King did not act alone.  The suffragettes did not act alone.  Homosexuals are not acting alone.  Those who decared America's independance from Britain did not act alone.  Those who recently overthrew the Egyptian government did not act alone.  Those now fighting in Lybia are not acting alone.

That are - or were - all part of a group of like thinking individuals.

Uldred was part of a group.

Anders is one man.  He chose for everyone.  In fact, he chose for people he was not even part of - Circle mages.

Revolutions start because individuals perceive blatant injustice and decide to take action.

Revolutions start

START

Martin Luther King and other notable civil rights campaginers were in fact, alone, at first. They garnered support over time. It's not as if he just set up a podium one day and African Americans flocked from all over the country to hear him talk. It was the end result of months, if not years of gaining influence and getting attention through lesser means.

The mage rebellion is in its infancy, Anders has no choice but to work alone. The few free mages that exist in Thedas are scattered and in hiding. Circle mages are not a separate species, they are not Qunari, claiming that Anders has no idea what they want and how they think merely because he hasn't asked is ludicrous. People are people everywhere and people generally want the same things, mages included.

Besides, Anders was raised in a Circle, he has experienced life there first-hand, his situation is, in fact, typical of most Circle mages, and if he's not satisfied with that life, then it stands to reason there are others who feel the same way, and that's even if you choose to ignore the many, many, many mages you see throughout both games who clearly want freedom.

And ultimately, he was proved right. The Kirkwall rebellion was by and large a failure, no matter what side you choose. The mages end up being a) slaughtered wholesale, save for a few or on the run. But  word spreads and the other Circles are inspired by this tale of injustice to rise up against their oppressors. Whether or not they said so beforehand is irrelevant, they clearly wanted their freedom and when pushed to do so, were willing to fight for it.

[Maugrim]

RavenB wrote...

I think Anders had good reason to believe many mages didn't want things to continue as they were. You saw mages working towards the same basic ends all the time during Dragon Age II. The blood mages planting demons in the templars, those who worked with Thrask, the mage underground, the resolutionists. I don't really remember hearing from any mages who thought things were going great in Kirkwall. It seems blind to assume Anders didn't have good reason to think many would appreciate his actions just because he didn't have a specific, known group standing beside him when he did what he did.

That is merely suppostion on your part.  We do know that the College of Magi rejected pulling away from the Chantry Circles sometime after Awakening. And we hear nothing about calling another meeting to reconsider the subject.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 24 avril 2011 - 03:26 .

[Burningwolf]

I wound up killing anders(after romanceing him with a female mage)Then sideing with the maji.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Plaintiff wrote...
Martin Luther King and other notable civil rights campaginers were in fact, alone, at first. They garnered support over time. It's not as if he just set up a podium one day and African Americans flocked from all over the country to hear him talk. It was the end result of months, if not years of gaining influence and getting attention through lesser means.

And not blowing up buildings single handedely and hoping that would do anything, yes. Why didn't Anders do that instead?

The mage rebellion is in its infancy, Anders has no choice but to work alone. The few free mages that exist in Thedas are scattered and in hiding.

Incorrect. The common people of Kirkwall were sympathizing with mages (an unprecendented event). Nobles hated Meredith. The Guards hated Meredith. And some Templars were rebelling.

There were plenty of allies Anders could have gathered, rather than alienate them by blowing up a Chantry. But of course we know that he becomes more and more paranoid and sees everyoen as an enemy.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 avril 2011 - 03:29 .

[RavenB]

makenzieshepard wrote...

RavenB wrote...

I think Anders had good reason to believe many mages didn't want things to continue as they were. You saw mages working towards the same basic ends all the time during Dragon Age II. The blood mages planting demons in the templars, those who worked with Thrask, the mage underground, the resolutionists. I don't really remember hearing from any mages who thought things were going great in Kirkwall. It seems blind to assume Anders didn't have good reason to think many would appreciate his actions just because he didn't have a specific, known group standing beside him when he did what he did.

That is merely suppostion on your part.  We do know that the College of Magi rejected pulling away from the Chantry Circles. And we hear nothing about calling another meeting to reconsider the subject.

It's not "supposition". Those things I listed very clearly happened. I didn't imagine large parts of the game. I didn't claim that the majority of mages Thedas wide wanted the war to begin. I don't know that and neither do you. However, Anders very clearly had plenty of reason to think mages inside Kirkwall wanted a rebellion with groups coming out of the woodwork working towards it. That's not really deniable. This wasn't just something Anders, as a single individual, dreamed up. It was quite obvious a large amount of mages in Kirkwall were unhappy and wanting change. You encountered them basically every five minutes during the game. No civil rights movement could possibly guess to an accurate point whether the majority of their minority supports what they're doing at every step. They draw support from the influence they find around them and so did Anders.

[TJPags]

Martin Luther King Jr. Maybe people should read about him.

Quick facts - in 1954, he was pastor of the Dexter Avenue Baptist Church in Alabama. He was also a member of the Executive Committee of the NAACP.

In 1955 - after he was the Pastor of the Church and on the Executive Committee of the NAACP - he led the bus boycott, his first largescale demonstration.

http://nobelprize.or...4/king-bio.html

Yup - acting all by himself there, he was.

[Rifneno]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And not blowing up buildings single handedely and hoping that would do anything, yes. Why didn't Anders do that instead?

Because it doesn't work.  Racial minorities had been getting more rights for a while before MLK.  He sped up a process, he didn't start it.  It was started by the Civil War.

Incorrect. The common people of Kirkwall were sympathizing with mages (an unprecendented event). Nobles hated Meredith. The Guards hated Meredith. And some Templars were rebelling.

There were plenty of allies Anders could have gathered, rather than alienate them by blowing up a Chantry. But of course we know that he becomes more and more paranoid and sees everyoen as an enemy.

1.  Nobles are a political power, not a military power.
2.  The guards are under the command of Aveline.  By default, she sides with the templars.
3.  What's this "increasing paranoia" thing?  I see not a shred of evidence of that.  Justice went bonkers on Ella, but Justice gets pissed if you imply he might become a demon in DAA.  It's not a new thing.

TJPags wrote...

Martin Luther King Jr. Maybe people should read about him.

Quick facts - in 1954, he was pastor of the Dexter Avenue Baptist Church in Alabama. He was also a member of the Executive Committee of the NAACP.

In 1955 - after he was the Pastor of the Church and on the Executive Committee of the NAACP - he led the bus boycott, his first largescale demonstration.

http://nobelprize.or...4/king-bio.html

Yup - acting all by himself there, he was.

It's funny how the Templar apologists claim the Circle was in league with Anders because of the "mage underground" mentions when it's for the purpose of justifying the RoA, but when it comes to the argument of if he was unsupported in the idea of wanting rebellion, suddenly he was all alone.  Funny how that works.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Rifneno wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And not blowing up buildings single handedely and hoping that would do anything, yes. Why didn't Anders do that instead?

Because it doesn't work.  Racial minorities had been getting more rights for a while before MLK.  He sped up a process, he didn't start it.  It was started by the Civil War.

The Civil war involved a lot more than the slave question (North policies of protectionism vis a vis European machinery forced the South to buy crappy US made machines, which helped fuel the need for slavery btw). 

And it was nto started by one man.

I do not dismiss the need for blood. Often, blood is required. But not with one man whose sanity and soberness is in question, who represents no one but hismelf and who has no plan whatsoever, making that choice.

Rifneno wrote...
1.  Nobles are a political power, not a military power.
2.  The guards are under the command of Aveline.  By default, she sides with the templars.
3.
 What's this "increasing paranoia" thing?  I see not a shred of
evidence of that.  Justice went bonkers on Ella, but Justice gets pissed
if you imply he might become a demon in DAA.  It's not a new thing.

1. Nobility provdies legitimacy.
2. Only after the Chantry blows up. Before, Aveline and her guards clearly dislike Meredith for encraoching upon them and trying to kick Aveline out.
3. Codex entry and no, it's nto written by anyone. It's a primary sourse codex telling us what happened with Anders in the last 3 years. Paranoia.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 avril 2011 - 03:55 .

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

TJPags...

Let me ask you this - if your co-worker - not your boss, your co-worker- tossed the *coffee pot out the window because they don't like coffee, would you be annoyed?

Your analogy smells of socks used as condoms and generalized failure.

I considered killing him because of the Sebastian thing, but ultimately decided to spare him to bring him through this. I have no regrets.

I wonder what would be the better decision. Would Anders have a role in the mage revolution? Would siding with Sebastian make Starkhaven more tolerant for mages? If the writers decide to go with an expansion to continue Hawke's story, I wonder if our decision to spare or kill Anders will come into play, and what it will mean for the largest city-state in the Free Marches, or if neither decision will matter.

[Plaintiff]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And not blowing up buildings single handedely and hoping that would do anything, yes. Why didn't Anders do that instead?

Maybe it's because, unlike Martin Luther King, Anders lives in a place and time where he will be violently punished for expressing his opinion publicly. He lives in a time where his ability to think critically can be removed. Chantry law does not allow him the opportunity to make his case peacefully, it is not an option.

Incorrect. The common people of Kirkwall were sympathizing with mages (an unprecendented event).

And being brutally punished for it.

Nobles hated Meredith.

They don't want the Circle abolished.

The Guards hated Meredith.

These guys don't either. 

And some Templars were rebelling.

And Anders is supposed to know this how? 

There were plenty of allies Anders could have gathered, rather than alienate them by blowing up a Chantry. But of course we know that he becomes more and more paranoid and sees everyoen as an enemy.

Allies he had no idea existed because Meredith's brutal reign forced them into hiding. It's all very well to work in secret for a time, but one can only acheive so much. Eventually, to force real, lasting change, someone has to go public and do something big to get attention. And thanks to Chantry law, which allows templars to capture, make Tranquil and/or execute Anders immediatly, a peaceful protest on the steps of the Viscount's Keep won't cut it. The Templars rule with violence, so Anders has to act in kind.

And I don't know where you're getting the interpretation of his character as "paranoid". Not once does he accuse Hawke or any of his companions of being Templar spies, nor does his (totally rational) fear of being caught cause him to abandon his clinic. He displays none of the symptoms of paranoia.

[TJPags]

Rifneno wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Martin Luther King Jr. Maybe people should read about him.

Quick facts - in 1954, he was pastor of the Dexter Avenue Baptist Church in Alabama. He was also a member of the Executive Committee of the NAACP.

In 1955 - after he was the Pastor of the Church and on the Executive Committee of the NAACP - he led the bus boycott, his first largescale demonstration.

http://nobelprize.or...4/king-bio.html

Yup - acting all by himself there, he was.

It's funny how the Templar apologists claim the Circle was in league with Anders because of the "mage underground" mentions when it's for the purpose of justifying the RoA, but when it comes to the argument of if he was unsupported in the idea of wanting rebellion, suddenly he was all alone.  Funny how that works.

"templar apologists"  lol  Love it.

Funny, how mage apologists always claim he was acting alone, and now suddenly seem to want us to believe he was part of a movement.

Odd that.

[KnightofPhoenix]

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
Maybe it's because, unlike Martin Luther King, Anders lives in a place and time where he will be violently punished for expressing his opinion publicly. He lives in a time where his ability to think critically can be removed. Chantry law does not allow him the opportunity to make his case peacefully, it is not an option.[/quote]

Nor am I saying he should make it peacefully. But not on his own and not in his state of mind.

[quote]
[quote]Incorrect. The common people ofKirkwall were sympathizing with mages (an unprecendented event).[/quote]
And being brutally punished for it.[/quote]

Which increases their resentment, yes. They could have been mobalized.

[quote]
[quote]Nobles hated Meredith.[/quote]
They don't want the Circle abolished.[/quote]

They don't have to be abolished. But reformed. A far more realistic goal with logn term perspective. No one wants to abolish the Circles, except the Resolutionists. Not even the Libertarians want it.

[quote]
[quote]The Guards hated Meredith.[/quote]
These guys don't either. [/quote]

They don't have to.

[quote]
And Anders is supposed to know this how? [/quote]

Thrask in Act 2. And if he was a little less paranoid.

[quote]
Allies he had no idea existed because Meredith's brutal reign forced them into hiding. [/quote]

He knew full well taht they existed in Act 2.

[quote]
It's all very well to work in secret for a time, but one can only acheive so much. Eventually, to force real, lasting change, someone has to go public and do something big to get attention.[/quote]

Someoen representing a group, yea sure. Maybe. Not a shell of a man who is barely sane and sober.

[quote]
And I don't know where you're getting the interpretation of his character as "paranoid". Not once does he accuse Hawke or any of his companions of being Templar spies, nor does his (totally rational) fear of being caught cause him to abandon his clinic. He displays none of the symptoms of paranoia.[/quote]

Codex entry describing what happened to him in the last 3 years. Not  written by anyone, so it's the game telling us.

[Plaintiff]

TJPags wrote...

Martin Luther King Jr. Maybe people should read about him.

Quick facts - in 1954, he was pastor of the Dexter Avenue Baptist Church in Alabama. He was also a member of the Executive Committee of the NAACP.

In 1955 - after he was the Pastor of the Church and on the Executive Committee of the NAACP - he led the bus boycott, his first largescale demonstration.

http://nobelprize.or...4/king-bio.html

Yup - acting all by himself there, he was.

I'm not seeing how this contradicts my point. Martin Luther King has already amassed influence and is in a position of some authority at the time that he begins publicly protesting. Anders has no such influence, and as an apostate living in the sewers, no realistic way of obtaining any.

You could argue that he could use his connection to Hawke, but that's assuming Hawke agrees with his views, which, as the PC, he may well not. The only other character with any sort of authority is Aveline, and she sides with the Templars by default.

[Xilizhra]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

TJPags...

Let me ask you this - if your co-worker - not your boss, your co-worker- tossed the *coffee pot out the window because they don't like coffee, would you be annoyed?

Your analogy smells of socks used as condoms and generalized failure.

I considered killing him because of the Sebastian thing, but ultimately decided to spare him to bring him through this. I have no regrets.

I wonder what would be the better decision. Would Anders have a role in the mage revolution? Would siding with Sebastian make Starkhaven more tolerant for mages? If the writers decide to go with an expansion to continue Hawke's story, I wonder if our decision to spare or kill Anders will come into play, and what it will mean for the largest city-state in the Free Marches, or if neither decision will matter.

I've thought long and hard about this, and I still don't know what my canon Hawke will decide. Starkhaven could be a useful ally; not only that, but killing Anders could be a show of good faith on our part, that we can clean up our own messes. It's hard to say for certain.

[TJPags]

Plaintiff wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Martin Luther King Jr. Maybe people should read about him.

Quick facts - in 1954, he was pastor of the Dexter Avenue Baptist Church in Alabama. He was also a member of the Executive Committee of the NAACP.

In 1955 - after he was the Pastor of the Church and on the Executive Committee of the NAACP - he led the bus boycott, his first largescale demonstration.

http://nobelprize.or...4/king-bio.html

Yup - acting all by himself there, he was.

I'm not seeing how this contradicts my point. Martin Luther King has already amassed influence and is in a position of some authority at the time that he begins publicly protesting. Anders has no such influence, and as an apostate living in the sewers, no realistic way of obtaining any.

You could argue that he could use his connection to Hawke, but that's assuming Hawke agrees with his views, which, as the PC, he may well not. The only other character with any sort of authority is Aveline, and she sides with the Templars by default.

The point is, MLK did exactly what you say - he amassed influence with the people he hoped to lead.  He worked with them, spoke with them, agreed on a course of action with them.  Anders did none of that.

He could have worked with that Mage Underground he used to work with.  He could have worked with the Mage Emporium (that's not right - the mage group we did quests for in DAO).  He could have asked Hawke for help, instead of hiding his intentions to blow up the Chantry.  He could have worked with families of mages.  He could have rallied apostates to his cause.  Hell, he could have rallied the Ferelden refugees in Kirkwall to support him.

He did none of this.  He chose to be a one-man mission of freedom for an entire group of people that he was no longer part of, without knowing if they wanted that kind of drastic action.
 
So I ask again - what gives him the right to make that decision, at that time, for all those people?

[Plaintiff]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Someoen representing a group, yea sure. Maybe. Not a shell of a man who is barely sane and sober.

How does having supporters make his case any more or less legitimate? The situation is either unjust or it is not. Even if every single mage in Thedas willingly submits to the current oppressive system, it is still oppressive and should change. The situation needs correcting regardless of whether anyone else agrees with him or not.

The argument for discrediting Anders' actions is based almost entirely on whether or not the mages appreciate what he did for them or not. We get no confirmation on this either way, and it shouldn't matter. Even if the majority despise him for it, the majority can be wrong. Right and wrong shouldn't be decided by some sort of popularity contest.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Plaintiff wrote...
How does having supporters make his case any more or less legitimate? The situation is either unjust or it is not. Even if every single mage in Thedas willingly submits to the current oppressive system, it is still oppressive and should change. The situation needs correcting regardless of whether anyone else agrees with him or not.

The argument for discrediting Anders' actions is based almost entirely on whether or not the mages appreciate what he did for them or not. We get no confirmation on this either way, and it shouldn't matter. Even if the majority despise
him for it, the majority can be wrong. Right and wrong shouldn't be decided by some sort of popularity contest.

I am not interested in rethoric and all that jazz. Nor am I interested in "right" or "wrong".

What I am interested in is efficiency and prudence. If he really wanted change, there were better and more efficient ways to go about it, with a more realistic mindset. As it stands, he is a half-abomination who is barely sane and sober, has no leadership qualities, no legitimacy amongst anyone, no qualifications, and no concrete plan / vision for either short and long term. And he thinks he is qualified to make such a decision.

No matter how "right" he is, for me he'll always be a fool. A sympathetic fool maybe. But a fool.