2340 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

TJPags wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Martin Luther King Jr. Maybe people should read about him.

Quick facts - in 1954, he was pastor of the Dexter Avenue Baptist Church in Alabama. He was also a member of the Executive Committee of the NAACP.

In 1955 - after he was the Pastor of the Church and on the Executive Committee of the NAACP - he led the bus boycott, his first largescale demonstration.

http://nobelprize.or...4/king-bio.html

Yup - acting all by himself there, he was.

I'm not seeing how this contradicts my point. Martin Luther King has already amassed influence and is in a position of some authority at the time that he begins publicly protesting. Anders has no such influence, and as an apostate living in the sewers, no realistic way of obtaining any.

You could argue that he could use his connection to Hawke, but that's assuming Hawke agrees with his views, which, as the PC, he may well not. The only other character with any sort of authority is Aveline, and she sides with the Templars by default.

The point is, MLK did exactly what you say - he amassed influence with the people he hoped to lead.  He worked with them, spoke with them, agreed on a course of action with them.  Anders did none of that.

He could have worked with that Mage Underground he used to work with.  He could have worked with the Mage Emporium (that's not right - the mage group we did quests for in DAO).  He could have asked Hawke for help, instead of hiding his intentions to blow up the Chantry.  He could have worked with families of mages.  He could have rallied apostates to his cause.  Hell, he could have rallied the Ferelden refugees in Kirkwall to support him.

He did none of this.  He chose to be a one-man mission of freedom for an entire group of people that he was no longer part of, without knowing if they wanted that kind of drastic action.
 
So I ask again - what gives him the right to make that decision, at that time, for all those people?

Anders has the right (I would even call it a responsibility) to make that decision because everyone else is unwilling or unable to. Whether or not they "want" it is beside the point. It's necessary. Who does it and whether or not they have majority support is irrelevant. The system is inherently unjust. Law has failed the mages, the Circle has failed them. The First Enchanters, the men and women who are elected to represent their interests, have failed them.

In the event of such wide-spread injustice, it is every individual's right and duty to oppose it by any means necessary. Anders is just the only mage with the balls to step up to the plate.

[TJPags]

Plaintiff wrote...
Anders has the right (I would even call it a responsibility) to make that decision because everyone else is unwilling or unable to. Whether or not they "want" it is beside the point. It's necessary. Who does it and whether or not they have majority support is irrelevant. The system is inherently unjust. Law has failed the mages, the Circle has failed them. The First Enchanters, the men and women who are elected to represent their interests, have failed them.

In the event of such wide-spread injustice, it is every individual's right and duty to oppose it by any means necessary. Anders is just the only mage with the balls to step up to the plate.

I'm sorry, I absolutely do not agree with this.

What's right is not always about what the majority wants, I agree with that.  Something that's wrong should be changed, whether the majority wants it or not.

But when it comes to determining how or when that change happens, it is NOT the right of one person to make that decision for others.  Does one disgruntled worker have the right to call a strike on behalf of his co-workers?  Does one unruly fan have the right to get an entire section thrown out of a ballgame?  Does one misbehaving child justify the entire class getting expelled?

One person can start a revolution, can lead a revolution, but cannot BE a revolution.  One person does not get to choose when, where and how others have to act.  One person does not get to choose when, where and how others have their lives put in danger.

If Anders stood in front of a coaltion of mages and mage supporters and declared a revolution, I'd applaud him.  If he and a group of people bombed templar HQ, I'd applaud him.  If he roused the populace of Kirkwall to kill Meredith, I'd applaud him.  If he worked with the support of those he claimed to act for, I'd support him.

He acted alone, he chose alone, and he did it for hundreds or thousands of others.  He did it in the name of their freedom, but did it in a way that actually infringed on their freedom - he took away their right to choose the time and the manner of their action.

If you really believe that one person has that right, so be it.  I clearly won't change your mind.  But I will never agree with it.

[In Exile]

Plaintiff wrote...
How does having supporters make his case any more or less legitimate? The situation is either unjust or it is not. Even if every single mage in Thedas willingly submits to the current oppressive system, it is still oppressive and should change. The situation needs correcting regardless of whether anyone else agrees with him or not.

There are circumstances that alter how just how 'just' a course of action is. Whether or not mages actually wanted an armed insurrection (and the terms on which they do) is a major issue. The mages that were massacred by the templars in Kirkwall didn't ask for Anders to lead them to freedom.

Whether or not the situation needs to change is independent of the question of how one ought to morally enacted that change. Supposing we grant a just war, we could justify a mage rebellion... but what a mage rebellion is and what Anders did are not the same thing.

The argument for discrediting Anders' actions is based almost entirely on whether or not the mages appreciate what he did for them or not. We get no confirmation on this either way, and it shouldn't matter. Even if the majority despise him for it, the majority can be wrong. Right and wrong shouldn't be decided by some sort of popularity contest.

But if right and wrong aren't decided by consequences, then just what are they decided by? A deontological moral system, unless it was hopelessly bloodthirsty, wouldn't do much to justify Ser Bomb-A-Lot. 

[In Exile]

Plaintiff wrote...
Anders has the right (I would even call it a responsibility) to make that decision because everyone else is unwilling or unable to. Whether or not they "want" it is beside the point. It's necessary. Who does it and whether or not they have majority support is irrelevant. The system is inherently unjust. Law has failed the mages, the Circle has failed them. The First Enchanters, the men and women who are elected to represent their interests, have failed them.

And certainly bringing about their possibly genocide is a brilliant success that we should laud? In Kirkwall Anders's actions led to a massacre of the mages. Depending on what Hakwe does, almost every living mage in Kirkwall is killed or made tranquil.

In the event of such wide-spread injustice, it is every individual's right and duty to oppose it by any means necessary. Anders is just the only mage with the balls to step up to the plate.

Tahrone wanted to use blood magic to destroy the templars. Was that justified? Was that moral? Decimus likely destroyed the Starkhaven circle and planned to murder any templar that came after him. Was that justified or moral?

[Xilizhra]

Tahrone wanted to use blood magic to destroy the templars. Was that justified? Was that moral? Decimus likely destroyed the Starkhaven circle and planned to murder any templar that came after him. Was that justified or moral?

Actually, I don't really object to Tahrone's actions that strenuously, though it would have been great if she'd been possessing more people like Karras. The templars, realistically speaking, are a military aggressor to mages everywhere. It was her motives that were, quite frankly, nutty.
And Decimus had similar motives, but he was also deranged enough to be dangerous to people who weren't trying to destroy his life... so unfortunately, both had to die.

[adneate]

Plaintiff wrote...
In the event of such wide-spread injustice, it is every individual's right and duty to oppose it by any means necessary. Anders is just the only mage with the balls to step up to the plate.

And suppose someone objects to America's overconsumption of natural resources and the gap between the wealth of the average American and the average person living in sub-saharan Africa. Would it be that person's duty to detonate a thermonuclear warhead in major U.S city? To bring about the collapse of American economic injustice.

[metalisticpain]

sevenplusone wrote...

That was such a dick move.

Also, who did you side with? I ended up siding with the Templars. Both sides are ****ed but I liked Meredith's character. On top of that, Anders really ****ed the mages. Order did need to be kept, so imo siding with the Templars was a ****ty choice, but the best one.

What anders did had to be punished. He condemed so many innocents to pain and death. So I killed him.

My personal opinion on the mage vs templer is that the Templars need to make the circle less like a prison. The Templars drove mages to become blood mages with drastic measures. If they made the circle nicer, less strict but still kept a watch there would be less problems. All the mages to live, you just keep an eye on them. Allow them girlfriends, visitors, shopping trips etc.

[thermalware]

I wanted to kill him after that one mission and expelled him from my group. Guy was a psycho and a terrorist. Really pissed off how he showed up last minute and royally screwed everything up, plus having to listen to meridith about how he was my friend. friend? I played 99% of the game without him.

Stabbed the dude without hesitation

[Faroth]

I killed Anders. It was perfectly tragic since my female Hawke was in a romance with him, but that he USED her to commit mass murder and essentially prove what he's trying to stand against; that the mages are dangerous and Templars are right....it was the ultimate betrayal.

I killed him and sided with the mages. The Circle had nothing to do with this, it was a single apostate.

I wanted to support the Resolutionists; that the Circle/Templar arrangement should remain, but more symbiotic than it had become in Kirkwall.

[-Algernon-]

Yep.  Wished I could've totally avoided him as a companion. The first time through, I tried not to be biased against him for the experience of the game.  All consecutive play-throughs, yes he dies, everytime...  Needless to say, I don't particularly care for Anders.  Didn't like him in Awakening either.

[Plaintiff]

adneate wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
In the event of such wide-spread injustice, it is every individual's right and duty to oppose it by any means necessary. Anders is just the only mage with the balls to step up to the plate.

And suppose someone objects to America's overconsumption of natural resources and the gap between the wealth of the average American and the average person living in sub-saharan Africa. Would it be that person's duty to detonate a thermonuclear warhead in major U.S city? To bring about the collapse of American economic injustice.

Did you miss the word necessary? Nobody in America gets executed or otherwise violently punished merely for voicing an opinion. Debate and peaceful protest are totally possible, if not encouraged. An individual has the opportunity to sway public opinion with words. Violence is not necessary.

Anders has no such opportunity. He lives in a society where a mage with a dissenting opinion can expect imprisonment at best, with mind-rape or outright execution being a definite risk. Peaceful protest is not an option. His only hope is to strike the first blow, and make it count.

Besides which, America is not wholly (or even mostly) responsible for the economic situation in sub-saharan Africa. Attacking America would be wrong because it is not the cause of the problem. Anders, on the other hand, is attacking the Chantry, the institution that is directly responsible for the oppression of mages and encourages such treatment through its clearly biased rhetoric.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 25 avril 2011 - 02:23 .

[Xero Striker]

I didn't like him too much in Awakening anyway so killing him wasn't a hard decision for me

[Brangwen]

I had one thing turn me. The only time I heard anything sensible come out of Merril's mouth. Paraphrasing, she said, make him come along and make things right. Up until that point I was ready to kill him, LI or no LI.

There are fates worse than death, sometimes living is worse. Anders was expecting the easy way out as he always does - he WANTED you to kill him. Nuh-huh. Anders, love, you put me on the spot as your judge, jury and executioner, so you better come along and help me clean up the mess you made. You are NOT getting out of this that easy. You have to live with the consequences, and damnit, I am going to make sure you do. And I get to keep you for my own sake as well. Win win, really.

Also, call me what you will, but I was expecting the terrorist/rebel act from Anders. It was half of what kept me hanging in act III. Anyone that thinks a potion with hardcore explosives in it (concentrated methane explosive and dragon goo triggers) was to do anything except explode something on a grand scale really should pay attention a bit better. And then he got me to distract the Grand Cleric. I nearly laughed when he asked me that. I made good and sure that Anders knew I knew he was lying, got him to admit it and told him I would never forget he emotionally blackmailed me into agreeing to help using the LI relationship as a crutch.

That poor boy (if I get my way RPGing, and right now my brain gets to play things out however it likes!) is really stuffed with me around as his probation officer!

Yes, I also sided with the mages, I am a chaotic good underdog supporter from way back. I will always side with the oppressed and help them rise up to free themselves. I just wish the mages were not to ready to resort to blood magic for their answers. Oh well, I hope I get to slap them around a bit.

[Vilegrim]

Oblivious wrote...

Despite being a mage I sided with the Templars if for no reason other than I wanted to be Viscount. I didn't regret the decision at all: despite being anti-religion (both the Chantry and the Qun) I came to the conclusion that it is better to keep order as Viscount and a new, more thorough Circle than have the city run rampant with abominations.

Besides, how can Hawke be the most important person in Thedas without a title?
Warden: I am the Warden-Commander, 2nd in line to the Teyrnir of Highever, Teyrn of Gwaren, and Arl of Amaranthine.
Alistair: I am a senior Grey Warden, King of Ferelden
Hawke: Err... I'm the Champion of Kirkwall

http://en.wikipedia....erc_du_Tremblay


immense power and influence, no real title.

[kreite]

"raises hand"

[Trollhawke]

During my first play-through, I considered the Chantry to be the only way of stopping it and-hopefully, finding a peaceful solution.

During the game I was a friend to Anders (for reasons I don't remember), but then he went and did the most inane thing I can think of.

I originally said templars, but the mages were all 'dude, no what the heck man' so I was like 'oh ok, I'll go mage' in the hopes of a loop until the game said I just beat them both up (which, funnily enough, you end up doing anyway). In the end, I got Aveline on my side, took a poll and... let him run.

Instantly, I wished that I had taken his life, wanted another chance of ripping him open. So I made my way to the gallows, like most, and he was there. And, yet again, I told him to run. More likely than not, Anders would have died more easily had he stayed, but it was one of the few times I genuinely wanted him to suffer.

And the guilt in his voice, the depression in his stance, the act of watching vengence turn into regret, made it all worth it to me.

Next run through, I'll probably have nothing to do with him, though.

[nyctc7]

First playthrough I sided with the mages because my sister was a mage, and I thought that was what I was supposed to do. Fenris of course disagreed with almost everything I did (though I did not gain 100% rivalry with him) and was such a sourpuss. Near the end my choices meant that I was forced to kill him, and despite the fact that he was such a morose character, and a bit of a jerk, I felt bad when I saw his dead body on the ground.

Second playthrough I again started out favoring mages, but ended up siding with the Templars, if only to check out any differences in the game. While I did not gain 100% friendship with Fenris, he was less of a jerk and I agreed with much of his dialogue. When the time came in this playthrough I killed Anders (the first playthrough I did not have Sebastian, and did not have the threat of his coming back with an army if I spared Anders). Unlike Fenris' death, I had no bad feelings about killing Anders. I spent the game (even in this second playthrough I had high friendship with him) doing him so many favors and basically got nothing in return from him, he just got more demanding and self-righteous and fanatical,  that I felt not a whiff of regret in killing him.

Modifié par nyctc7, 02 juin 2011 - 05:59 .

[WillPF363]

I let Anders live in my first play through, because I'd already lost too many characters, and I needed him as a healer, but I really didn't want to keep him. Since then I always kill him, and don't bother to do his personal quests, and banish him early if I don't need his skills.

I usually side with the Mages. I played once as a warrior Hawke whose overall goal was to keep Kirkwall stable and safe, and sided with the Templars then. But even with that role in mind, following Meredith's logic of 'lets kill everyone in the Circle because a Mage who has never been associated with said Circle did something awful' just felt evil. Orsino at least manages to seem mostly good, if ineffectual, until the very end of the game.

But Anders dies no matter who I side with. I have absolutely no sympathy for him. I have sympathy for the plight of Mages, but Anders turned himself into the beacon of all the reasons for locking them in Circles. My non-mages hate him for being a murderer, as do my mages who also hate him for all the horrible things mages everywhere are going to have to go through on his account.

I will say this about him though- Bioware did one hell of a job turning a character that I found mildly amusing, into one I genuinely despise. And that seems like pretty good writing to me.

[eliesan]

I loathed the Templars so much, I let Anders live the first game I played
Playing the game a second time now: Vanguard/Berserker- might treat Anders differently, we'll see.

[CitizenThom]

I always kill Anders, I just wish I could kill him before he pulled off his terrorist act, that would be more satisfying. Even on my first playthrough, I started to realise Anders was a bit imbalanced in the first act (seriously, Anders and Meredith are about equal in terms of pigheaded zealotry). If Justice/Anders had anything in the way of cajones or courage, he would've blown up Meredith, not the Chantry. As it is, he's a coward that murders the entirely wrong party if he's trying to save the mages.

[Flashflame58]

My first playthrough, I was a S&S warrior and I was pro-mage, but most of all, I was romancing Anders. So first playthrough I did not kill him. The next few, I so did kill that terrorist. But then I got over my hatred and stopped killing him. >

[themonty72]

I didnt---- even though he was wrong but Grand cleric was innocent herself. Thers no telling how many innocent mages were killed while she stood back and did nothing because she didnt want the choose sides. There is much blood on her hands than Anders. I donr know how players couldn't see that. Anders blew up Chantry and players just killed him not concerning that Chantry didnt like mages either. The chanrty( protect by templars which was nothing but Lyrium dope heads) thought magic was some sort curse not some kind of blessing

Modifié par themonty72, 03 juin 2011 - 07:10 .

[Agamo45]

I killed that terrorist bastard every time. Though I wish Hawke had stabbed him in the chest with his sword or decapitated him or something. Anything is better than stabbing him in the back with that tiny ass knife.