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[Shadow Raziel]

Agamo45 wrote...

I killed that terrorist bastard every time. Though I wish Hawke had stabbed him in the chest with his sword or decapitated him or something. Anything is better than stabbing him in the back with that tiny ass knife.

Spot on... I dropped him like a bad habit. There was no way I was going to let him live. no way I would take the chance that he might do something else equally vile in the future.  Yeah decapitation would have been nice. XD

[Lyrandori]

Yes, I was hesitant but I killed him. Then Fenris turned against me when I sided with the Mages, I did not hesitate to kill him though, he annoys me (well, he annoyed my Hawke, I mean, in that particular playthrough).

[Taraberra]

I kill him every time I play :] He's stupid with how he blew that Chantry up and all he does is whine about the Templars and how they're the root of all suffering. I would make him atone, but he just annoys me too much. And at the end when he's explaining himself, his views/perception of the situation seemed so off. So I knife the ho.

[Shadow Raziel]

Lyrandori wrote...

Yes, I was hesitant but I killed him. Then Fenris turned against me when I sided with the Mages, I did not hesitate to kill him though, he annoys me (well, he annoyed my Hawke, I mean, in that particular playthrough).

I sided with the mages my first game because of Bethany being a mage and my sister.  Then the first enchanter decides to become an abomination. which kind of flew in the face of the argument I was supporting. I fought countless blood mages and abominations in my righteous stance Thought about the Blood mages holding my sister hostage and the blood Mage serial killer that made my mother the bride of frankenstein along with dealing with Merill's crap which caused the party to kill the Dalish tribe off. and at  last realized I had been duped.

My next playthrough Bethany's arse became a grey warden which allowed me to side with the Templars.  and get this with the exception of Meredith I did not have to fight any other Templars. because non of them had turned into an abomination. after they helped me dispatch Meredith they all kneeled and I assumed the throne.

Both sides were wrong. and there were some good people on both sides. sadly the fanatics.. Anders and Meredith left no room for compromise. As much crap as the Chantry gets. and justifiably so. in many ways the mages are as bad.

[E.T Kire]

 I spared him for several reasons. First it made sense for my Hawke to spare him(even though i was a warrior). My father was a mage and i took the Gray Warden route where Anders helped my sister and also healed Bartrand. It would be OOC for him to simply shrug that off and knife him to death. Furthermore, what i read about the Templars(and the Chantry by association) throughly disgusted me. The way they kidnap children who's born with magic by the age of 6 away from their parents and either tranquil them, kill them or turn them into slaves make their lofty principles inexcusable and counterproductive. I agree that the Grand Cleric was a noble person, but she left the situation linger for 3 years without using her influence and thus reaped the fruits of her indecision.

Bottomline, in any revolution you have to smash eggs to make an omelet and Anders understood that.

Meredith had no justification for what she did. Templars and Mages participated in defeating the Qunari insurection, and yet Meredith still collectively painted them as rebellious disloyal traitors. Most of the nobles survived and one of them could have been elected as a new Viscount in those 3 years from the end of Act2 to the beginning to Act 3, but there were no evidence that she intended to give up power soon, if ever.

Modifié par E.T Kire, 11 juin 2011 - 12:52 .

[Il Sire]

Killed him without hesitation even though he was my main healer and i had befriended him, the first time i saw that scene i really felt betrayed especially for knowing nothing about his plan in advance after all i did for him.

Meredith was clearly wrong and i sided with the mages but still nothing can justify that act of terrorism Anders did, killing off more innocents than anyone else, including Elthina who was actually trying to help just about anyone including mages, and then bragging like he had done the greatest thing ever.

[LobselVith8]

Shadow Raziel wrote...

I sided with the mages my first game because of Bethany being a mage and my sister.  Then the first enchanter decides to become an abomination. which kind of flew in the face of the argument I was supporting.

Isn't the argument that Hawke is defending hundreds of men, women, and children against an act that Anders alone is responsible for? I didn't realize the actions of one single man meant it was all right to commit genocide against an entire population of people who are innocent of the act that Anders is responsible for.

Shadow Raziel wrote...

I fought countless blood mages and abominations in my righteous stance Thought about the Blood mages holding my sister hostage and the blood Mage serial killer that made my mother the bride of frankenstein along with dealing with Merill's crap which caused the party to kill the Dalish tribe off. and at  last realized I had been duped.

The Dalish clan try to murder Hawke and Merrill in cold blood if they are told the truth about what happened, how is that Merrill's fault? When a group of people try to commit murder, you don't blame the victim.

Also, it seems that Quentin was from Starkhaven, given that's where Gascard was looking for him, so he could have been like Huon and Evelina, who were sane and then driven mad after being imprisoned in the Circle. I'm honestly not seeing how you were duped here. Had Hawke ever meet the hundreds of men, women, and children in the Gallows, or did he fight the criminal element outside the Gallows?  

Shadow Raziel wrote...

My next playthrough Bethany's arse became a grey warden which allowed me to side with the Templars.  and get this with the exception of Meredith I did not have to fight any other Templars. because non of them had turned into an abomination. after they helped me dispatch Meredith they all kneeled and I assumed the throne.

All of them committed genocide by murdering hundreds of men, women, and children, however.

Shadow Raziel wrote...

Both sides were wrong.

When a religious organization brutally oppress people for a thousand years, no one should be surprised when things go bad, especially in an enviornment where mages are being raped, tortured, made tranquil illegally, and where mage supporters are killed.

[Torax]

I let Anders live the first time. Once and only once. I've never sided with the Templars but I always give Justice his deserved end. Anders is just as guilty. But Justice knew what he deserved.

[NakedKana]

I have played through the game about five times already and I killed Anders 4/5 times. I agreed with his principals and i understand his need for change and I even get the warped logic behind his actions but the fact remains that he murdered innocent people in cold blood and effectivly made the situation worse for his fellow mages. I was really torn up about if first play through because I somehow missed out on getting Fenris in my party, and so had romanced Anders. So when he did that and my character was in love with him I just sat and stared at my options for like ten minutes before deciding that, even though it was heart breaking, I couldn't let him live. He's insane.


That said, I have never, not once, sided with the templars. I tried to once, purely for the sake of seeing what that's like, but I just couldn't stomach it. It's true, what LobselVith8 said, you have to remember that when they say they're going to kill all the mages, they mean ALL the mages. Some of them are barely more than toddlers and they're going to run these babies through with swords. Neverminding that the circle didn't have anything to do with it to begin with.

Both sides have very valid points, mages ARE dangerous but at the same time it's wrong to punish them all for something they can't help. I also think that Dragon age two could have pleaded the case for the mages a little better. You bump into crazy blood mages left and right in game but you don't really get to witness for yourself what the templars are doing to the mages in the circle. You get vauge details, and from them you can assume day and night imprisonment, torture and rape but you hear about it kind of off handed and you don't really get the same kind of impact as you would from, oh I don't know, a blood mage murding your mother.

[Torax]

the weakest part is just that. We are shoved with Blood Magic is Bad but we don't really see the same negative to Templars. Just because of the stupid argument of;

"KILL ALL MAGES!!! vs. WE DID NOT DO THAT!!!"

Even weaker argument when you go well

"Lets always make one of them a sub boss and last boss no matter which decision the player makes".

"So lets just hold back how bad Orsino is cause of that whole murdering a bunch of mages looks as wrong as all the hours upon hours of blood mage plots we forced on the players."

Meanwhile the Templars? Hmm can count the bad ones on one hand. Random hints of bad. One of Bethany's letters talks of her enjoying teaching the children, steering clear of certain Templars. I mean it's mentioned it's bad but it pales to all the pointless blood magic crap we get fed in all the acts.

Modifié par Torax, 11 juin 2011 - 04:03 .

[Senior Cinco]

My first playthrough, I was a warrior, and disliked the changes made to Andy from the start. He's just not the same char as in DAOA. I helped him out, bla, bla, bla... THEN HE PULLS THAT S***! Well, it was not much thought to what happened next...DEAD, DEAD, DEAD....I started another playthrough, as a BM, and sided with the Temps in every convo with the looser. Putting down mages and such, the replies were priceless...the, "How can you say that? You're a MAGE!" put me in the floor... I didn't finish that playthrough, due to being pissed at not seeing my extras in game, and quit playing until a fix came out. Now 3 mts later, I've got all my stuff and going to start a new BM. This time I will prob...Naaa...He's dead.

[DebatableBubble]

I did. I wasn't going to let him walk free.

[Feanor_II]

When the explosion happend I just thought "WHAT THE F**K ARE YOU DOING! SPARKING A TOTAL WAR?"

He was a bit annoying with his continous complains and depression.... but I think still he was a bit above the standard of most of the companions........ But after the explosion I asked my companionsjust to keep tension of the moment..... After that i I didn't eve doubt satbbing him.

[Aristol Inglorion]

I belive in that Everyone deserves a second chance. Anders is a troubled man and I don't think Hawke (I) have really done everything I had in my power to help him. Letting me know or not I was just as guilty to let things end this way as he was. I mean just think about it, you went into the Fade to save a boy you hardly know however have you ever looked into how to save him from Justice? Most of the people set Bethany as an example however who carried the burden really for Bethany, she or her family? Do you know why Anders accepted Justice's offer at the end? Have you ever tried to really understand this?
From my opinion what happened with the Grand Cleric was my fault as well and I'm not starting to blame someone else for my own wrong doing.

[bebop50]

First playthough the shock of his actions and the fact that he used me to do it meant only one thing death. Because to me this wasn't all about mages being free this was about a little boy being taken away from his mother and seeing the fear and hatred from his father.This was a man who wanted vengeance not just against templars but everyone. He turned a spirit of justice into a spirit of Vengeance. The templar/mage conflict is much worse in kirkwell because of Meridith and if you play the templar playthough you find the Grand Cleric was siding with the fist enchanter when it came to Meridith's hatred and madness. Ander's KILLED her to set Meridth off without anyone to control her. If Ander's had Killed Meridith I would have understood but he wanted her to go on a killing spree the only problem is he made her actions justifed. He didn't care that the mages would be killed he wanted it, he didn't care about all those people who protected him and helped him all these years how many of them were killed or hurt, he just wanted to die and be a martyr. I got a kick out of his reaction when the mages and templars were working together to oust Meridith. His intentions may have started out noble but in the end he was a little boy looking to lash out at the world. The only problem I have with the ending is if you let Ander's live they didn't show any reaction from the mages Bioware has way to many "leave it your imagination" moments in this game or the fact that if you side with the mages you still have to fight blood mages on the way to the Gallows. Any way Ander's is a dead man in most of my playthough's.

[supercarnage]

Yes I did.

But I still supported the Mages and in the idea of giving them more freedoms, Just because one is a mass murdering lunatic for that cause doesn't mean that all of them need to die. And besides even if after a long and bloody conflict between the Mages vs the Templars, which will mostly likely kill lots of innocent bystanders in the cross fire, are the common, everyday folk going to see the newly freed Mages and say "Yea right on man!"? I doubt that very much. Ander's actions will just lead to the increase of fear and distrust of Mages. My hope was that killing Anders will decrease the rage, among the general populace towards Mages in general that might inevitably occur when people tell a grieving family member "A mage did it". My hope was that people would be less angry if you tell them "The lone mage who started all of this and who was acting by himself is now dead. PS not all Mages are like that."

But that's just my line of thinking.

Modifié par supercarnage, 11 juin 2011 - 06:29 .

[KalSkirata999]

I let him live for Ser Pounce-a-lot's sake. He would have been heartbroken to receive a letter about Anders death.

Modifié par KalSkirata999, 12 juin 2011 - 03:25 .

[lobi]

I was gonna kill him violently relishing the act that had been denied me for so long, Then Sebastian started making his stupid as wussie threats and spoiled my gloating. So I let Anders go (kill later) just to annoy Sebastian and hopefully goad him into a fight, but the coward ran.

[MillKill]

I had to kill him. Grand Cleric Elthina could've talked some sense into Orsino and Meredith. She was one of the few unambiguously good people in the game. Anders knew that. He murdered someone he knew didn't deserve to die purely to pursue his own idealogy. There was no way a monster like that deserves to keep breathing. Sided with the Templars.

Even if I had defended the circle, it would only be temporary. The Divine might call an Exalted March down or Kirkwall. At the very least, more Templars would be called in. Better to end the war quickly and with as little bloodshed as possible. That's what Anders couldn't see. His rebellion would only get more mages and innocents killed. If he wanted people to respect mages, he should've tried to demonstrate the positive effects mages can have through good deeds and words. Instead, he chose violence. That will only make people hate mages more.

[LobselVith8]

MillKill wrote...

I had to kill him. Grand Cleric Elthina could've talked some sense into Orsino and Meredith. She was one of the few unambiguously good people in the game. Anders knew that. He murdered someone he knew didn't deserve to die purely to pursue his own idealogy. There was no way a monster like that deserves to keep breathing. Sided with the Templars.

Unambiguously good? The same person who did nothing to stop the abuses going on in Kirkwall, even when Hawke presented it to her, and allowing the Knight-Commander to become a dictator over the city-state, despite being the highest ranking member of the Chantry and Meredith's superior? Elthina is responsible for all of the misery and blood that transpired that she had the power to stop, but didn't.

MillKill wrote...

Even if I had defended the circle, it would only be temporary. The Divine might call an Exalted March down or Kirkwall. At the very least, more Templars would be called in. Better to end the war quickly and with as little bloodshed as possible.

I don't think killing an entire population of people is going to mean little bloodshed.

MillKill wrote...

That's what Anders couldn't see. His rebellion would only get more mages and innocents killed. If he wanted people to respect mages, he should've tried to demonstrate the positive effects mages can have through good deeds and words. Instead, he chose violence. That will only make people hate mages more.

I think Anders felt that it was better for the mages to die on their feet than live for another thousand years on their knees.

[Vit246]

MillKill wrote...

I had to kill him. Grand Cleric Elthina could've talked some sense into Orsino and Meredith. She was one of the few unambiguously good people in the game. Anders knew that. He murdered someone he knew didn't deserve to die purely to pursue his own idealogy. There was no way a monster like that deserves to keep breathing. Sided with the Templars.

Keyword: could've

But the Grand Cleric did not do anything. She may have wanted a peaceful resolution, but she did not actually do anything to further that goal. She just wanted to sit back, do nothing, and wait for the Maker to do something. Elthina was not "unambigously good", at most she was incompetent and depravely indifferent. She knew about Ser Alrik wanting to Tranquil all mages, no exceptions. She knew of and did not like Meredith's methods, but did noithing to curb or stop them. She had knowledge of how the Templars under Meredith's command were abusing, raping, and Tranquiling harrowed mages illegally under Chantry law. The Grand Cleric knew the Templars were violating Chantry law but did nothing about that.

Anders waited for years, tried to give her one last chance to get off her ass and do something, pick a side, anything. But the Grand Cleric just did not want to use her supreme authority and power over templars and mages to do something. Anders only knew that she would never do anything as long as she lived. There was no "ideology" about killing her. Anders simply got tired of waiting for Elthina to overcome her incompetence and inaction.

And then you sided against the Circle and condemned every man, woman, and child to death or Tranquility for the action of an apostate, something they had nothing to do with.

Millkill wrote....

If he wanted people to respect mages, he should've tried to demonstrate the positive effects mages can have through good deeds and words. Instead, he chose violence. That will only make people hate mages more.

Here's the problem. For all the good deeds he was doing, Anders is a mage. No amount of good deeds will change the Chantry's mind because they will not tolerate a single mage not under their control. Ordinary people can suffer and die for helping mages. For example, the Mage Underground Railroad quests, the Templars were about to kill a woman just for feeding her mage cousin. "Words" are meaningless because the Chantry can just ignore you and be done with it, since they have all the power to do just that. Anders repeatedly tried to appeal to the Grand Cleric with "words", but she practically refused to listen to any advice other than her own.

Modifié par Vit246, 12 juin 2011 - 05:44 .

[River5]

Nope!

I rewatched the Chantry's explosion scene listening to the 1812 Overture by Tchaikovsky!  

Inspired by this (Spoilers for the ending of "V for Vendetta"...): www.youtube.com/watch

The very moment the Chantry exploded, in my mind, Anders ceased to be just "Anders", but became a symbol of every single person the Chantry has ever wronged...  Every single life they ever took away, or destroyed...  Every single family they tore apart...  Every single freedom they have trampled with impunity...  Even going as far as claiming that they were righteous in doing so!  Anders embodied the countless Chantry's victims that, until then, had had no voice.

So, while I am rather uncomfortable with the means he took to start his revolution, I cannot condemn him for it either.  He was going after a totalitarian society where there was unfortunately no hope for change through negociation, or peaceful resistance.

Modifié par River5, 12 juin 2011 - 09:10 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

The Chantry destroyed my entire country, struck the name of its founder from the history books, crushed our gods under its heel, and made slaves of my people.

Oh no... one tiny little building went up.

Elf up, people. Elf up.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 12 juin 2011 - 09:24 .

[Silfren]

MillKill wrote...

I had to kill him. Grand Cleric Elthina could've talked some sense into Orsino and Meredith. She was one of the few unambiguously good people in the game. Anders knew that. He murdered someone he knew didn't deserve to die purely to pursue his own idealogy. There was no way a monster like that deserves to keep breathing. Sided with the Templars.

Even if I had defended the circle, it would only be temporary. The Divine might call an Exalted March down or Kirkwall. At the very least, more Templars would be called in. Better to end the war quickly and with as little bloodshed as possible. That's what Anders couldn't see. His rebellion would only get more mages and innocents killed. If he wanted people to respect mages, he should've tried to demonstrate the positive effects mages can have through good deeds and words. Instead, he chose violence. That will only make people hate mages more.

'

Elthina is unambiguously good?  She knew the abuses mages were being subjected to--she even says she did not approve of Meredith's methods.  She did NOTHING to stop it.   By her inaction she was complicit in the crimes against mages.  She's a lot of things, but umabiguously good ain't one of 'em.