2340 réponses à ce sujet

[Nefla]

Anders was my favorite character in Awakening, he was my permanent party member in EVERY playthrough (even if my warden was a spirit healer). In DA2 unless I'm playing a non-mage and need a healer, I kill him every time. I even killed him after I romanced him. I just hate DA2 Anders so much.

[Lethorial]

Killed him, but not because i hated him. I killed him because in dying he becomes a martyr and will forever be know as the mage who showed all mages they didnt need to suffer under chantry rule

[OmegaXI]

My mage hawke let him live, the mages would need powerful mages of action for the upcoming revolution. I didn't agree with what he did or how he tricked me into helping him. But what was done was down and there was no way stopping the aftermath. Besides he would be more useful to mages if he was alive then dead.

And besides I never took crap from any of the templars since the beginning of the game (I killed wesley the first templar I met).

The Tree of Mage freedom must be watered with the blood of Templars.

[rpgfan321]

I killed him in all of my saves. I'm like "why?" It was a catalyst and made me hate Anders. I sided with the mages because my Hawke was a mage and pretty pro-mage as well. My Hawke worked so hard to get into the city, stay in the city, and live in it. And here is a confused, possessed, insane mage causing chaos and kill those in the middle ground. ...

I tried to save Anders, but after that scene ... it's really hard for me to not kill him.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Why would I kill Anders? For blowing up the Chantry? I only wished I could have given him a high five and then convinced him to finish the job on the rest of f*cking Kirkwall. And then spread the love to the Grand Cathedral in Val Royaeux.

Despite it being an idiotic and insane move on Anders part, it was still probably the only part of Act 3 that put a smile on my face.

[berelinde]

Kill him? Not a chance! Who else is going to help Hawke lead the mages to freedom? He is willing to die for his cause, but I think it's more meaningful to make him live for it.

[Out to Lunch]

This thread makes me sad. I can't believe how quickly people grabbed a murder knife. Being angry at him, telling him to get lost or keeping him alive and turning him over to the city guard, that I can understand but murder?

Ok, I'll admit I did debate whether it would be kinder to kill him and set him free but I'm selfish. I liked him too much.

[Shadow Fox]

TheDarkRats wrote...

Of course I killed that traitor, he murdered the Grand Cleric! I never like Anders, I wish I could have killed him in Awakening. I stood by the Templars, ironically, being a mage myself. I spared the two mages that begged for mercy, and enjoyed every second of finally getting to rip Meredith apart at the end. I don't regret helping the Templars, half of the mages I fought were blood mages. Orsino should never have turned to blood mages, which locked my decision, even if it were a last-minute decision. Needless to say, I am not a blood mage, and I don't like them.

Pretty much my stance on the issue.

[Shadow Fox]

Sonris89 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sonris89 wrote...

Andres did a dick move, he killed who knows how many people, both sides condemmed him, Fenris and Aveline both said he needed to be punished. Merril said he should help but hell, after she got her whole clan butchered, what kind of good advice could she give? I was fed up with her too.

Merrill didn't get her whole clan butchered. They either kill you because their bigoted idiots who saw her as a "flat ear" or they accept that the Keeper loved her more than she loved the clan.

Furthermore, he destroyed a building that belonged to an organization that enslaved mages across the entire continent. Anders saw his people as slaves to the Chantry and its templars, and he wanted to free them from slavery. How is it a "dick move" to want to emancipate your people from tyranny? Should he have written them a strongly worded letter instead? Anders actions can end up emancipating the mages from slavery. Considering that the Chantry and its military arm basically control the lives of mages, who have no basic rights, can be given a lobotomy where they have no free will, and can tortured and raped, I'm not surprised Anders destroyed the building of an organization that enslaved mages.

Sonris89 wrote...

Merideth was beyond hope of calming, but maybe the templars and citizens of kirkwall were more forgiving up until he murdered the only neutral party left in the city. Couldn't he have bombed the knight commanders office instead? He had contacts and ways into the Gallows.

The point was for mages to rise up and fight for their freedom instead of accepting a system of subjugation.

Sonris89 wrote...

Andres represented everything wrong with mages. Lets face it. He was an abomination, one that thought he was in the right and was a threat to everyone around him, he even admits that several times and hes attacked and or murdered people while possesed. Anyone else did that and you would have cut them down without blinking.

Anders represents what happens when you oppress a group of people for a millennia and they decide to rise up and fight for their freedom by any means necessary.  Also, Anders isn't an abomination by the definition of the devs who said it specifically involves demons - he had a symbiotic relationship with a spirit (likely similar to the Rivain seers), and both Anders and Justice fundamentally changed as a result of their symbiosis.

Eh thats your opinion, great thing about this game, you can look at it alot of different ways. But I think Anders was an abomination. He went beyond justice, even vengence, at a few points he embodied rage and wrath, desire and pride. As was mentionedi n awakening Justice could have easily turned into a demon, the only difference between a demon and spirit are thier values and goals, which can change...

But he killed innocents, where is the justice in that?

And Merril was trying to (perhaps unkowningly) summon a pride demon into the world, which is the most powerful kind of demon. Her clan had every right to throw themselves at her.

But the mages are extremly dangerous. And they really showed it to me in this game. Every apostate I ran into resorted to demons or blood magic more or less.

I felt bad for the oppression but lets not forget they can turn into demon possed monsters, mind controlling blood mages, or just light someone they dont like on fire. Can't exactly evaluate them on real world values. They are people, and living weapons.

I feel the same and no I don't hate mages*some of my favorite video game characters are mages* but in DA2 after seeing almost every mage go out of they're way to prove the Templars right I couldn't stomach siding with them.

[Shadow Fox]

Sereaph502 wrote...

Sonris89 wrote...

I beat the last stage of the game with a tank an off tank and two rogues.. No healers needed.

Unless you never got hit at all or kited around when you were about to die because potions were off cooldown, I don't see that happening.

And I don't see running around being unable to be hit while your rogues have bows equipped plinking away at the boss a valid strategy, either.

I carved a path of destruction with my 2h Templar Warrior Hawke,Fenris,Aveline and Varric so it's possible.

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Nokternul wrote...

Lets not forget the presumably innocent religious people he just murdered in cold blood.

The same religious members who are part of an organization who have enslaved his people for nearly a millennia, you mean?

So we should blow up Christan churchs because of the religon's messy history or should the US nuke Muslim churchs because the 9/11 terrorists where said to be Muslims you realize that's pretty much what you're arguing right?

[Rifneno]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Why would I kill Anders? For blowing up the Chantry? I only wished I could have given him a high five and then convinced him to finish the job on the rest of f*cking Kirkwall. And then spread the love to the Grand Cathedral in Val Royaeux.

Despite it being an idiotic and insane move on Anders part, it was still probably the only part of Act 3 that put a smile on my face.

What about when Meredith Stalin called out to the Maker, whom apparently responded by petrifying her, head-last so she had time to be terrified at the realization? That made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Witty Hawke romancing Anders should've been able to respond by telling him he won't need to wait for all the templars to be dead before there's a happy ending.

[LobselVith8]

Sonris89 wrote...

Eh thats your opinion, great thing about this game, you can look at it alot of different ways. But I think Anders was an abomination. He went beyond justice, even vengence, at a few points he embodied rage and wrath, desire and pride. As was mentionedi n awakening Justice could have easily turned into a demon, the only difference between a demon and spirit are thier values and goals, which can change...

It's not my opinion that Anders wanted to free his people, it's part of the story. Anders explicitly states this as the reason for his actions. Whether you agree with what Anders did or not is certainly a matter of opinion.

Sonris89 wrote...

And Merril was trying to (perhaps unkowningly) summon a pride demon into the world, which is the most powerful kind of demon. Her clan had every right to throw themselves at her.

Merrill wasn't trying to bring a demon into the real world - that isn't even remotely close to what she was doing. She wanted to engage in discourse with Audacity to see if he had knowledge about the Eluvian, and he was trapped by ancient elven magic in a totem.

Sonris89 wrote...

But the mages are extremly dangerous. And they really showed it to me in this game. Every apostate I ran into resorted to demons or blood magic more or less.

I felt bad for the oppression but lets not forget they can turn into demon possed monsters, mind controlling blood mages, or just light someone they dont like on fire. Can't exactly evaluate them on real world values. They are people, and living weapons.

All they showed me in this game is that they're willing to go against their own lore to villify mages - where mages become abominations in two seconds while in the real world, when the lore account of Aeonar and the myraid of mages in Origins weren't in the real world when they entered the Fade, or how every mage antagonist is a nonsensical fool who makes no sense (Decimus, Grace) or is completely absurd and ridiculous (Quentin, Endgame Orsino).

And I saw plenty of templars become monsters without the need for magic involved - or are you forgetting Ser Alrik threatening a child mage with tranquility and rape?

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Nokternul wrote...

Lets not forget the presumably innocent religious people he just murdered in cold blood.

The same religious members who are part of an organization who have enslaved his people for nearly a millennia, you mean?

So we should blow up Christan churchs because of the religon's messy history or should the US nuke Muslim churchs because the 9/11 terrorists where said to be Muslims you realize that's pretty much what you're arguing right?

I don't recall that particular modern day religious institution engaging in the genocide of entire populations of people because they have "divine right" over them, or did you forget Cullen's remarks as to why Grand Cleric Elthina must side with the templars?

Modifié par LobselVith8, 11 août 2011 - 01:23 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Rifneno wrote...

What about when Meredith Stalin called out to the Maker, whom apparently responded by petrifying her, head-last so she had time to be terrified at the realization? That made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

No, no warm and fuzzy there, because I was was still pissing myself laughing over that whole farce final battle. Meredith turning into a pile of red lyrium poo was the punchline.

And I would never compare Meredith to Stalin. Stalin, despite being a complete d*ck, was a very ruthless and competant leader who was as intelligent as he was paranoid and ruthless. Meredith is just a wannabe dictator bully who can't even keep her own ackeys loyal and under control. She's not even an ameteur, she's a joke.

Witty Hawke romancing Anders should've been able to respond by telling him he won't need to wait for all the templars to be dead before there's a happy ending.

I'm surprised all the templars didn't jump on Meredith's "corpse" and try to snort her remains. Templars do love their lyrium.

[nos_astra]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't recall that particular modern day religious institution engaging in the genocide of entire populations of people because they have "divine right" over them, or did you forget Cullen's remarks as to why Grand Cleric Elthina must side with the templars?

But you do recall them having done this several times in history?

And yet no messiah fell from the sky who brought us tolerance, equality, justice and freed us from the evils of institutionalized religion. It's all a very slow and painful process.

[Rifneno]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

What about when Meredith Stalin called out to the Maker, whom apparently responded by petrifying her, head-last so she had time to be terrified at the realization? That made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

No, no warm and fuzzy there, because I was was still pissing myself laughing over that whole farce final battle. Meredith turning into a pile of red lyrium poo was the punchline.

And I would never compare Meredith to Stalin. Stalin, despite being a complete d*ck, was a very ruthless and competant leader who was as intelligent as he was paranoid and ruthless. Meredith is just a wannabe dictator bully who can't even keep her own ackeys loyal and under control. She's not even an ameteur, she's a joke.

Witty Hawke romancing Anders should've been able to respond by telling him he won't need to wait for all the templars to be dead before there's a happy ending.

I'm surprised all the templars didn't jump on Meredith's "corpse" and try to snort her remains. Templars do love their lyrium.

I can't decide which part of this post I love the most.  It's like brain candy.

[Rifneno]

klarabella wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't recall that particular modern day religious institution engaging in the genocide of entire populations of people because they have "divine right" over them, or did you forget Cullen's remarks as to why Grand Cleric Elthina must side with the templars?

But you do recall them having done this several times in history?

And yet no messiah fell from the sky who brought us tolerance, equality, justice and freed us from the evils of institutionalized religion. It's all a very slow and painful process.

So what you're saying is, we'd be hypocrites not to want to murder a bunch of people who, despite doing no wrong themselves, share something with people that did something terrible many centuries ago.

...  Am I the only one knee-deep in irony at that analogy?

[esper]

Rifneno wrote...

klarabella wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't recall that particular modern day religious institution engaging in the genocide of entire populations of people because they have "divine right" over them, or did you forget Cullen's remarks as to why Grand Cleric Elthina must side with the templars?

But you do recall them having done this several times in history?

And yet no messiah fell from the sky who brought us tolerance, equality, justice and freed us from the evils of institutionalized religion. It's all a very slow and painful process.

So what you're saying is, we'd be hypocrites not to want to murder a bunch of people who, despite doing no wrong themselves, share something with people that did something terrible many centuries ago.

...  Am I the only one knee-deep in irony at that analogy?

The difference for me is that the Chantry is actively in modern Thedas surpressing and robbing mages of their right, whereas our religious institutions today doesn't have that power. At least in my country.

[nos_astra]

Rifneno wrote...
So what you're saying is, we'd be hypocrites not to want to murder a bunch of people who, despite doing no wrong themselves, share something with people that did something terrible many centuries ago.

...  Am I the only one knee-deep in irony at that analogy?

No, that's what you were just saying ... and now you'll be probably ranting endlessly about it.

What I'm saying is: Why does Thedas need to change RIGHT NOW? What if it takes two hundred years more for things to shift, to crack, for change to come?

Of course, Thedas doesn't progress at all. It's a fictional world and just background for us to play super hero, so things are going to happen when it's convenient for us.

That doesn't mean you could not enjoy the role as a bystander or observer, not someone who bring teh awesome to those barbarians and make them see the error of their ways.

It's interesting how obssessive and aggressive people can get because of pixels and an imaginary world they desperately want to save.

Modifié par klarabella, 11 août 2011 - 02:21 .

[nos_astra]

esper wrote...
The difference for me is that the Chantry is actively in modern Thedas surpressing and robbing mages of their right, whereas our religious institutions today doesn't have that power. At least in my country.

See, from my point of view Thedas is anything but modern.

And you're right, in your country religious institutions don't have power. Mine, too. But that's not true for every country in the world, but I doubt you spend as much time thinking about them as you do about the mages of Thedas.

[Plaintiff]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Nokternul wrote...

Lets not forget the presumably innocent religious people he just murdered in cold blood.

The same religious members who are part of an organization who have enslaved his people for nearly a millennia, you mean?

So we should blow up Christan churchs because of the religon's messy history or should the US nuke Muslim churchs because the 9/11 terrorists where said to be Muslims you realize that's pretty much what you're arguing right?

He's saying nothing of the kind. This is the least apt comparison you could've drawn. The Chantry is not in any way comparable to a modern Christian church, nor is Ander's attack the same moral situation as a church bombing today.

For starters, the Chantry is a military power in its own right, and to say otherwise is foolish. Secondly, Anders is not seeking retribution for centuries-old injsutices. The chantry has enslaved mages for a millenium and it continues to do so. It's not history; it's happening right there, in front of you while you play the goddamn game.

It's not morally equivalent to indiscriminately attacking mosques, either. 9/11 was perpetrated by a small extremist group who are not representative of the Muslim faith.

The deplorable treatment of mages, on the other hand, is perpetrated by a vast majority. The entire Chantry structure is in on it; from templar cadet to knight commander, from lay sister to the Divine herself. It is a major tenet of their faith, almost the entire basis for it. Templars exist for no other purpose than to keep mages locked up, and Chantry priestess preach mage-hate everywhere you turn. It is ingrained in the Chantry and in the very social fabric of Thedas.

[Rifneno]

klarabella wrote...

No, that's what you were just saying ... and now you'll be probably ranting endlessly about it.

What I'm saying is: Why does Thedas need to change RIGHT NOW? What if it takes two hundred years more for things to shift, to crack, for change to come?

Of course, Thedas doesn't progress at all. It's a fictional world and just background for us to play super hero, so things are going to happen when it's convenient for us.

That doesn't mean you could not enjoy the role as a bystander or observer, not someone who bring teh awesome to those barbarians and make them see the error of their ways.

It's interesting how obssessive and aggressive people can get because of pixels and an imaginary world they desperately want to save.

1. Not even remotely. I want to bring down an organization that is actively and currently committing genocide. Right now. Not 1,000 years ago.
2. Let me guess, you're one of the ones who thinks the Chantry will loosen its grip peacefully and a slow change happens with no bloodbaths and there's sunshine and rainbows all round? Because last I checked, dictators don't give up power when someone asks nicely. They give it up when they stop breathing.
3. Yes, it's a fictional world. Your point?
4. It's cute that you think you have such an effect on people, but you should probably refer back to the first lesson of the internet: you can't accurately judge people's mental state by a few text messages.

[nos_astra]

1. I know that. I just don't know why.
2. No, I think life is not supposed to be fair. Things will change in Thedas, slowly. Never will anything be sunshine and rainbows. I'd love to see Thedas 500 or 1000 years ahead.
3. Why so serious?
4. What? When was this about me? There was just a train of thoughts running through my brain and I started typing away. I also didn't judgy anyone's mental state, I was merely amused by your dedication.

Modifié par klarabella, 11 août 2011 - 02:38 .

[nos_astra]

Plaintiff wrote...
For starters, the Chantry is a military power in its own right, and to say otherwise is foolish.

The templars are. Without the templars, the Chantry is vulnerable.

[Plaintiff]

klarabella wrote...

What I'm saying is: Why does Thedas need to change RIGHT NOW? What if it takes two hundred years more for things to shift, to crack, for change to come?

Why does anything need to change right now? Women could've waited another two hundred years to earn the right to vote or work, black people could've waited another two-hundred years for civil rights, homosexuals can wait another two hundred years to get marriage rights. And with logic like that, they'd have to.

Nothing "needs" to change ever. We didn't "need" toilet paper or television, and yes, mages could've probably lived under the yoke of the chantry for a good few more centuries. But why should they have to? When you see obvious injustice occuring right in front of you, why on Earth would you wait to do something about it? Why put off until tomorrow what you can do today?

Of course, Thedas doesn't progress at all. It's a fictional world and just background for us to play super hero, so things are going to happen when it's convenient for us.

That doesn't make any sense: a world's fictional status does not preclude the possibility of progress, however you choose to define it. There are many fantasy worlds that change over time, technologically, ecologically, and sociopolitically.

That doesn't mean you could not enjoy the role as a bystander or observer, not someone who bring teh awesome to those barbarians and make them see the error of their ways.

I don't see what this has to do with anything.

It's interesting how obssessive and aggressive people can get because of pixels and an imaginary world they desperately want to save.

What interests me is your ability to perceive emotion and intent through the internet.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 11 août 2011 - 02:41 .