2340 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

klarabella wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
For starters, the Chantry is a military power in its own right, and to say otherwise is foolish.

The templars are. Without the templars, the Chantry is vulnerable.

Yes, and, funnily enough, in DA2, when Anders attacks the Chantry, it is still in control of the templars. What happens after the game is rather irrelevent, we are discussing the morality of his actions during the time in which he chose to act.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

klarabella wrote...

What I'm saying is: Why does Thedas need to change RIGHT NOW? What if it takes two hundred years more for things to shift, to crack, for change to come?

Honestly, is this a serious question? Have you looked at Thedas lately?

That doesn't mean you could not enjoy the role as a bystander or observer, not someone who bring teh awesome to those barbarians and make them see the error of their ways.

Seeing how the world is 99% bystanders, I do not see how playing the role of yet another apathetic Joe  would be an enjoyable basis for a video game. That would be like playing one of the many ambient nameless NPCs who stand around to be clicked on to say something. No thanks. I can spend my real life being another insignfigant face whose impact on the world is limited to my personal sphere.  Part of the whole point of a video game is you know...eh///to do things or play parts that simply would be impossible or unlikely in the real world.

It's interesting how obssessive and aggressive people can get because of pixels and an imaginary world they desperately want to save.

Since when is debate and discussion of some interesting ideals, dilemas, and reflections that certainly have their mirror in the real world, obsessive? Good art and literature do that. Make people think, react and discuss. Not that I felt DA2 really fell in either category, but that is my opinion. It is clear that there are others who did. And regardless, DA2 still contained a few of ideas and situations that certainly deserve discussion, and if someone feels quite passionate about something in the game, and are eager to debate it, I would say that that is a good thing.

Modifié par Skadi_the_Evil_Elf, 11 août 2011 - 02:57 .

[American Spirit]

I usually let Anders Live simply because I think Sabastian is a holy than though, hypocritical Tool. Also given the number of times I have played through I haven't gotten around to romancing Sabasian. Like I said he's a Tool.

[Shadow Fox]

Plaintiff wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Nokternul wrote...

Lets not forget the presumably innocent religious people he just murdered in cold blood.

The same religious members who are part of an organization who have enslaved his people for nearly a millennia, you mean?

So we should blow up Christan churchs because of the religon's messy history or should the US nuke Muslim churchs because the 9/11 terrorists where said to be Muslims you realize that's pretty much what you're arguing right?

He's saying nothing of the kind. This is the least apt comparison you could've drawn. The Chantry is not in any way comparable to a modern Christian church, nor is Ander's attack the same moral situation as a church bombing today.

For starters, the Chantry is a military power in its own right, and to say otherwise is foolish. Secondly, Anders is not seeking retribution for centuries-old injsutices. The chantry has enslaved mages for a millenium and it continues to do so. It's not history; it's happening right there, in front of you while you play the goddamn game.

It's not morally equivalent to indiscriminately attacking mosques, either. 9/11 was perpetrated by a small extremist group who are not representative of the Muslim faith.

The deplorable treatment of mages, on the other hand, is perpetrated by a vast majority. The entire Chantry structure is in on it; from templar cadet to knight commander, from lay sister to the Divine herself. It is a major tenet of their faith, almost the entire basis for it. Templars exist for no other purpose than to keep mages locked up, and Chantry priestess preach mage-hate everywhere you turn. It is ingrained in the Chantry and in the very social fabric of Thedas.

Completely ignoring that people use religon everyday to justify hate crimes against ethnic minorities and that it  was used to justify slavery and murder and still is in some parts of the world sound familiar yet?


and did it ever accur to you that the average citizen has no idea of the Chantry's dirty dealings?Kind of like how most people don't know everything they're goverments do.

[Plaintiff]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
Completely ignoring that people use religon everyday to justify hate crimes against ethnic minorities and that it  was used to justify slavery and murder and still is in some parts of the world sound familiar yet?

Completely ignoring what now? I just said that the Chantry uses religion to justify its hate crimes. What the hell are you talking about? This isn't even English.

and did it ever accur to you that the average citizen has no idea of the Chantry's dirty dealings?Kind of like how most people don't know everything they're goverments do.

Which is relevent how? Anders does not attack 'ordinary citizens', he attacks the Chantry, which is the source of the bigotry. That the populace is unaware of the more clandestine dealings of the Chantry has little to do with anything: the Chant of Light and the subsequent official stance on mages is common knowledge. If the average Kirkwall citizen is going to buy into that bigoted crap without making their own objective investigation, then they deserve what they get.

[Ryzaki]

I'm starting to kill him more and more easily. I think my canon will off him. He's not human anymore. It's some creature that chases after ideals no matter who it harms trying to do the impossible.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 août 2011 - 06:16 .

[KotorEffect3]

I wouldn't hesitate killing him if it kept Meredith from invoking the RoA but she invokes it anyway so screw it let the Templars feel the full wrath of vengeange. Hopefully by allowing him to live he goes really nuts and brings the Templar Order to it's knees

[lokiarchetype]

Anders was a terrorist, and since there's no dialogue option to imprison him/put him on trial, there wasn't much of a choice beyond killing him if you wanted to take his crime seriously.

It's not like what he did was an accident nor would he do it differently if he had the chance. He felt his actions were just and necessary so he cannot be redeemed.

I sided with the mages, because again, don't think killing innocent people is right, no matter what cause it furthers.

The only difficult aspect for me was losing a valued party member, why couldn't it have been one of the characters I didn't use?

Modifié par lokiarchetype, 12 août 2011 - 09:58 .

[Phantom.Brave10]

Actually, I didn't even realise it...But I had never sided with the templars before and when I let Anders go, he showed up again and I had to kill him anyway. >.>

[Rifneno]

I'm still annoyed there isn't an option to annul the templars. You get to murderknife Anders for killing innocent people along with the evil bastards in the Chantry, but there's no option to take out the subhuman garbage like Cullen who just did the exact same thing on the Circle.

[Xilizhra]

Rifneno wrote...

I'm still annoyed there isn't an option to annul the templars. You get to murderknife Anders for killing innocent people along with the evil bastards in the Chantry, but there's no option to take out the subhuman garbage like Cullen who just did the exact same thing on the Circle.

Anulling an army is harder than doing the same to a surrendered civilian.

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I'm still annoyed there isn't an option to annul the templars. You get to murderknife Anders for killing innocent people along with the evil bastards in the Chantry, but there's no option to take out the subhuman garbage like Cullen who just did the exact same thing on the Circle.

Anulling an army is harder than doing the same to a surrendered civilian.

Didn't stop Hawke from curbstomping a high dragon and an entire... what do you call a group of dragons?  A flock?  A murder?  That'd be pretty appropriate.

[Xilizhra]

Well, they also weren't actually attacking Hawke and company anymore either.

I've also heard the word "drive" be used to refer to multiple dragons.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 21 août 2011 - 12:57 .

[RagingCyclone]

I am reading through this thread and find myself amazed and wondering how many actually used their Hawke's perspective in deciding Anders fate instead of the simply terrorist or mage.vs templar reasoning. I have killed him in every one of my four plays, and here's why for each Hawke...

Jacen/rogue...Bethany was a Circle mage, killed Anders because his first thought was that in essence Anders had just signed Bethany's death warrant. He then sided with the mages figuring if he can't save her he'll die along side her.

Galen/mage...Carver was a templar so he sided with them to help his brother..Again family sticks together. He also did not agree with Orsino's actions and felt a lot of the blame for the problems laid at his feet as much as they did at Meredith's.

Rochelle/warrior...Bethany died in the deep roads. She still tried to help mages despite her love's objections (Fenris) but when Anders blows up the chantry she reached a point she had enough. She lived on the run to protect Bethany, a mage killed her mother, Grace turned on her despite saving her in Act 1 by convincing the templars Grace was dead. At the end she sided with the templars because magic had been the bane of her life. Not only had it destroyed her family, but the mages she helped stabbed her in the back. She had had enough.

Kailea/rogue...Killed Anders because she agreed with her love Sebastian. However they both sided with the mages because she still felt the templar leadership was wrong in what they were doing. Even Meredith was defying Elthina in a lot of ways, and Kailea was of a similar thinking as Sebastian.

[Xilizhra]

I am reading through this thread and find myself amazed and wondering how many actually used their Hawke's perspective in deciding Anders fate instead of the simply terrorist or mage.vs templar reasoning.

Oh, I did. Though I'm still undecided about what his fate will truly be; it comes down to how useful he or Sebastian would be to the cause.

[RagingCyclone]

Xilizhra wrote...

I am reading through this thread and find myself amazed and wondering how many actually used their Hawke's perspective in deciding Anders fate instead of the simply terrorist or mage.vs templar reasoning.

Oh, I did. Though I'm still undecided about what his fate will truly be; it comes down to how useful he or Sebastian would be to the cause.

What cause? from each of my Hawke's there was no "cause" to fight for. So what cause is there for Hawke who is basically just a supposedly influencial citizen of Kirkwall?

[Xilizhra]

She wants to join Anders' fight. It's either that or stay out of it and watch other mages die whom she could have saved.

[Xilizhra]

She wants to join Anders' fight. It's either that or stay out of it and watch other mages die whom she could have saved.

[RagingCyclone]

Xilizhra wrote...

She wants to join Anders' fight. It's either that or stay out of it and watch other mages die whom she could have saved.

Which goes back to what I said before, you play your Hawke in the mage vs Templar setting. Are there no other reasons for your Hawke to make that decision other than a cause?

Modifié par RagingCyclone, 21 août 2011 - 01:17 .

[Xilizhra]

RagingCyclone wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

She wants to join Anders' fight. It's either that or stay out of it and watch other mages die whom she could have saved.

Which goes backl to what I said before, you play your Hawke in the mage vs Templar setting. Are there no other reasons for your Hawke to make that decision other than a cause?

Well, she likes Anders a lot and considers him one of her best friends; Sebastian was never quite as close. That could come into it.

[Rifneno]

RagingCyclone wrote...

I am reading through this thread and find myself amazed and wondering how many actually used their Hawke's perspective in deciding Anders fate instead of the simply terrorist or mage.vs templar reasoning. I have killed him in every one of my four plays, and here's why for each Hawke...

Thanks, had no idea I was playing the game wrong.

[RagingCyclone]

Rifneno wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...

I am reading through this thread and find myself amazed and wondering how many actually used their Hawke's perspective in deciding Anders fate instead of the simply terrorist or mage.vs templar reasoning. I have killed him in every one of my four plays, and here's why for each Hawke...

Thanks, had no idea I was playing the game wrong.

Didn't say wrong, I said that it seemed that for most it was one or the other, and see very little of Hawke's perspective in explanations. 

[Xilizhra]

It's rather a large thing in the universe; why wouldn't it color Hawke's perspective?

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

She wants to join Anders' fight. It's either that or stay out of it and watch other mages die whom she could have saved.

Doesn't Anders see an apostate Hawke who is pro-mage as the possible leader of the mage revolution? For my apostate protagonist, I get Anders saying how Hawke is the leader the mages need in Act II - including if Anders is spared at the end when they speak at the Gallows

[Xilizhra]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

She wants to join Anders' fight. It's either that or stay out of it and watch other mages die whom she could have saved.

Doesn't Anders see an apostate Hawke who is pro-mage as the possible leader of the mage revolution? For my apostate protagonist, I get Anders saying how Hawke is the leader the mages need in Act II - including if Anders is spared at the end when they speak at the Gallows

Pretty much, yes.