2340 réponses à ce sujet

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

The Xand wrote...

Would have saved those idiots Orsino and Meredith from getting angry and hulking out. For no real reason in Orsino's case :'(

Other than Bioware, for some reason, thinking we needed a pointless boss battle. Ah, well.

But yeah, by the time Anders had blown up the Chantry, I wanted to smack him and bro-fist him in the same breath. By that point, just about everyone in Kirkwall had pissed me off on either side of the fence, and Anders just took care of  one of two remaining annoyances left in Kirkwall. Now it's up to Hawke to take care of the other one waving her big red sword in my face.

And by that point, after enduring three acts of getting attacked, manipulated, threatened, and epicly annoyed by the population of Kirkwall, Anders little act of terrorism failed to be offensive to me. Hawke killed way more people than Anders did, for far less offense than Elthina was.

[Satyricon331]

I found the decision whether to kill Anders just muddled. Did anyone die? The building might have been empty; it was night. If people died, how many and who was it (Templar vs. civilian)? Did Anders knowingly risk people's lives, or was he basically certain nobody would be there? Is Hawke supposed to know these facts about who's at the Chantry when? It just wasn't a good opportunity for roleplaying since I had to assume the factual beliefs (or even the lack of information) that would prompt the decisionmaking that would differentiate some Hawke-types from others.

Admittedly, by that point of the game I found it hard to pay attention, so I might have missed something (does anyone know?). Nonetheless, even the most fanatical pro-Chantry Hawke might have refrained from killing over mere property damage... and I never RPed such a single-minded character. The easiest case would be a strongly pro-mage character who subscribes to some of the rights-based arguments you see on the boards, but even there you'd have to know whether Anders used the least-harmful method for starting a mage revolution, since if he did not then he would possibly have needlessly killed civilians who also have a right to life.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Satyricon331 wrote...

I found the decision whether to kill Anders just muddled. Did anyone die? The building might have been empty; it was night. If people died, how many and who was it (Templar vs. civilian)? Did Anders knowingly risk people's lives, or was he basically certain nobody would be there? Is Hawke supposed to know these facts about who's at the Chantry when? It just wasn't a good opportunity for roleplaying since I had to assume the factual beliefs (or even the lack of information) that would prompt the decisionmaking that would differentiate some Hawke-types from others.

Admittedly, by that point of the game I found it hard to pay attention, so I might have missed something (does anyone know?). Nonetheless, even the most fanatical pro-Chantry Hawke might have refrained from killing over mere property damage... and I never RPed such a single-minded character. The easiest case would be a strongly pro-mage character who subscribes to some of the rights-based arguments you see on the boards, but even there you'd have to know whether Anders used the least-harmful method for starting a mage revolution, since if he did not then he would possibly have needlessly killed civilians who also have a right to life.

The most you would really have to go on is that he bombed it at night, when it was likely only Chantry personnel. There is the possibility that there were "house guests" so to speak, like poor bums or orphans off the street, but the number of such residents can be debatable. I doubt there were any refugees as some have argued, since it has been 6 years since the end of the Blight, no major wars or mass displacements have occured since, and it is likely the refugees have either settled down, went back home, or moved on. 

However, I still think because it was done at night, as opposed during a Sunday (or whatever day Theodosians have designated for religous worship) afternoon, or during the day, when tons of ordinary citizens would likely be there for various reasons. I think it was deliberately left open to interpretation.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Uhm.. there are several parts of the city ingulfed in flames after the bomb.. Anders' terrorism struck a lot more than just the Chantry. So Anders killed a lot more than only Chantry personnel.

[Monica21]

Satyricon331 wrote...

I found the decision whether to kill Anders just muddled. Did anyone die? The building might have been empty; it was night. If people died, how many and who was it (Templar vs. civilian)? Did Anders knowingly risk people's lives, or was he basically certain nobody would be there? Is Hawke supposed to know these facts about who's at the Chantry when? It just wasn't a good opportunity for roleplaying since I had to assume the factual beliefs (or even the lack of information) that would prompt the decisionmaking that would differentiate some Hawke-types from others.

When the Chantry went you see Elthina and at least two Templars inside when the beam shoots through the floor. I don't know about "civilians." But it's clear that people did die.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Uhm.. there are several parts of the city ingulfed in flames after the bomb.. Anders' terrorism struck a lot more than just the Chantry. So Anders killed a lot more than only Chantry personnel.

Where was this mentioned? I only remember Aveline talking about maintaining order and keeping rioting down.

[Satyricon331]

Monica21 wrote...
When the Chantry went you see Elthina and at least two Templars inside when the beam shoots through the floor. I don't know about "civilians." But it's clear that people did die.

I don't remember that at all.  Granted, I've only played through once and I was pretty disengaged by that point.  Still, even if I had I would know Hawke would not have seen that scene.

I remember it being at night, so the question might be whether anyone lives in the main building, or if they're off in side buildings then it's whether the explosion was large enough to risk anyone there.  I never attributed the random fires to the explosion directly, but maybe I was mistaken?

edit: In any case, my point is simply that for most Hawke-types, it comes down to having to make factual assumptions (even the factual assumption that Hawke has as little idea of what happened as I do) on Hawke's behalf, which attenuates how strongly the killing of Anders characterizes Hawke.  But it is interesting to see I missed some things.

Modifié par Satyricon331, 11 septembre 2011 - 09:35 .

[Monica21]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Uhm.. there are several parts of the city ingulfed in flames after the bomb.. Anders' terrorism struck a lot more than just the Chantry. So Anders killed a lot more than only Chantry personnel.

Where was this mentioned? I only remember Aveline talking about maintaining order and keeping rioting down.

You see buildings on fire, but I don't remember any mention of actual casualties outside the Chantry itself. I suppose one could easily assume collateral damage.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Monica21 wrote...


You see buildings on fire, but I don't remember any mention of actual casualties outside the Chantry itself. I suppose one could easily assume collateral damage.

I remember rubble flying out, but other than a few scattered fires, I don't remember many. Of course, I've only played through that far once, and only remember it happening an night. And, well, being pretty cool to watch, because it looked like it was getting hit by the Death Star.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Satyricon331 wrote...
I remember it being at night, so the question might be whether anyone lives in the main building, or if they're off in side buildings then it's whether the explosion was large enough to risk anyone there.  I never attributed the random fires to the explosion directly, but maybe I was mistaken?

Yes, it is likely the Grand Cleric and her staff lived in the main building, as well as key Chantry personnel such as sisters and templars, who usually tend to round the clock duties and vigils. If what you were getting at, was whether or not Anders intended to kill people, then yes, he certainly did. His target was the Chantry and the priests and templars living within. As to whether or not he cared, or intended to kill more than that, I say its doubtful. Anders whole act wasn't really thought out in scope, only in execution, so how much thought he gave towards the possibility of collateral damage is debateable. But as I said, the fact that he bombed it at night tells me at least, he wasn't intending on having high numbers of casualties (and its interesting that he plants the bomb during the daytime, to boot, but blows it up at night), and thought that he would be killing mostly Chantry staff. Which of course, is what he wanted.

Even though I generally don't kill Anders, I could easily find logical and justifable reasons to do so, even as a pro-mage Hawke who is his lover. Hell, he even begs you to do it, and expects it. It is easy to justify killing him. But I find sparing him more rewarding. It pisses off Fenris and gets rid of Sebastian, so its generally a win-win situation for me.

[Satyricon331]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Yes, it is likely the Grand Cleric and her staff lived in the main building, as well as key Chantry personnel such as sisters and templars, who usually tend to round the clock duties and vigils. If what you were getting at, was whether or not Anders intended to kill people, then yes, he certainly did. His target was the Chantry and the priests and templars living within. As to whether or not he cared, or intended to kill more than that, I say its doubtful. Anders whole act wasn't really thought out in scope, only in execution, so how much thought he gave towards the possibility of collateral damage is debateable. But as I said, the fact that he bombed it at night tells me at least, he wasn't intending on having high numbers of casualties (and its interesting that he plants the bomb during the daytime, to boot, but blows it up at night), and thought that he would be killing mostly Chantry staff. Which of course, is what he wanted.

Even though I generally don't kill Anders, I could easily find logical and justifable reasons to do so, even as a pro-mage Hawke who is his lover. Hell, he even begs you to do it, and expects it. It is easy to justify killing him. But I find sparing him more rewarding. It pisses off Fenris and gets rid of Sebastian, so its generally a win-win situation for me.

I'm not as confident that the main building also had residential units, but regardless, what I was getting at was per that edit I had above - you have to assume particular factual beliefs for Hawke that dilute how strongly the killing of Anders characterizes him, and that attenuate the ability of your RP ideas for Hawke to determine the choice.

[Monica21]

Satyricon331 wrote...
I'm not as confident that the main building also had residential units, but regardless, what I was getting at was per that edit I had above - you have to assume particular factual beliefs for Hawke that dilute how strongly the killing of Anders characterizes him, and that attenuate the ability of your RP ideas for Hawke to determine the choice.

There are beds and storage rooms upstairs, so I'm reasonably confident that the building was used residentially.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Satyricon331 wrote...
I'm not as confident that the main building also had residential units, but regardless, what I was getting at was per that edit I had above - you have to assume particular factual beliefs for Hawke that dilute how strongly the killing of Anders characterizes him, and that attenuate the ability of your RP ideas for Hawke to determine the choice.

Yes, I understand, especially when looking for an in game RP basis, based on what Hawke knows, what Hawke has seen, Hawke's personality/charcter, ect. It could  come down to what sort of person Hawke really thinks Anders is. Given the nature of their relationship (friend/rival or romanced/not). Or, for more factual reasons, like Hawke trying to figure out the extent of the loss of life/destruction. There was the brief cutscene inside the Chantry when the bomb went off, and it looked like all Chantry sisters, and maybe a templar or two in the background. They were still awake, and likely in the middle of some vigil or religous rite, in the main chapel. So we know for certain there were people awake in the Chantry when the bomb went off. And when we visit the Chantry, we do see sleeping quarters for Chantry staff on the upper level, so I think they definitely live there. There might be attachted buildings like a rectory where most sisters/lay people might live, and it is likely they went up in the blast too, since I think the Chantry and its immediate environs were turned to bits.

Beyond that, it is likely that there was alot of damage in the immiediate surroundings. But Kirkwall looks like it's built mostly from stone and concrete, and I imagine the blast might have took the sides off some neighboring structures. You also have rubble falling and flying about. I'd imagine alot of broken windows and holes in roofs further away. But in general, i think casualties would have been pretty low, as they would have been mostly limited to High Town, which, being the district of the rich and important, has fewer residents than the poorer districts of Low Town, the Docks, or Darktown.

[Satyricon331]

Yes, that sounds very plausible.

edit: wow, I'm doing terribly today.  I mean your assessment of the damage to Hightown and the Chantry sounds right.  You're exactly right about how many ways there are to RP the decision; there it's not a question of plausability.  You're just right 

Modifié par Satyricon331, 11 septembre 2011 - 10:43 .

[filetemo]

I killed anders because I was sick of the mage-templar war. I wish I could have permakilled fenris, merril, anders, meredith and orsino and left the f* out of kirkwall

[Melca36]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Satyricon331 wrote...
I'm not as confident that the main building also had residential units, but regardless, what I was getting at was per that edit I had above - you have to assume particular factual beliefs for Hawke that dilute how strongly the killing of Anders characterizes him, and that attenuate the ability of your RP ideas for Hawke to determine the choice.

Yes, I understand, especially when looking for an in game RP basis, based on what Hawke knows, what Hawke has seen, Hawke's personality/charcter, ect. It could  come down to what sort of person Hawke really thinks Anders is. Given the nature of their relationship (friend/rival or romanced/not). Or, for more factual reasons, like Hawke trying to figure out the extent of the loss of life/destruction. There was the brief cutscene inside the Chantry when the bomb went off, and it looked like all Chantry sisters, and maybe a templar or two in the background. They were still awake, and likely in the middle of some vigil or religous rite, in the main chapel. So we know for certain there were people awake in the Chantry when the bomb went off. And when we visit the Chantry, we do see sleeping quarters for Chantry staff on the upper level, so I think they definitely live there. There might be attachted buildings like a rectory where most sisters/lay people might live, and it is likely they went up in the blast too, since I think the Chantry and its immediate environs were turned to bits.

Beyond that, it is likely that there was alot of damage in the immiediate surroundings. But Kirkwall looks like it's built mostly from stone and concrete, and I imagine the blast might have took the sides off some neighboring structures. You also have rubble falling and flying about. I'd imagine alot of broken windows and holes in roofs further away. But in general, i think casualties would have been pretty low, as they would have been mostly limited to High Town, which, being the district of the rich and important, has fewer residents than the poorer districts of Low Town, the Docks, or Darktown.

You see the explosion going upwards and Cassandra questions Varric in the hawke estate so if Hightown had been totally wiped out, he would have been questioned in the Hanged Man.:happy:

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Melca36 wrote...

You see the explosion going upwards and Cassandra questions Varric in the hawke estate so if Hightown had been totally wiped out, he would have been questioned in the Hanged Man.:happy:

If I remember correctly, the Hawke estate isn't that far from the Chantry. Of course, damage could have been repaired in three years, but it wasn't likely to be that severe, if the structure still stands. Like i said, Kirkwall looks constructed from hard, heavy, durable materials. I think had the blast happened, say in Denerim, which looks like alot of wood, stone, and thatch, and the buildings look flimiser, the damage would have been alot worse.

[Monica21]

filetemo wrote...

I killed anders because I was sick of the mage-templar war. I wish I could have permakilled fenris, merril, anders, meredith and orsino and left the f* out of kirkwall

I kill Anders because his cause annoys the ever-loving **** out of me. People point the "zealot" finger pretty quickly at Sebastian but fail to include Anders and Fenris, both actual zealots in their own right. There's a huge gap between being a man of faith and being a zealot.

[Nationalcity1]

I killed him.
Then I felt so bad that I had to restart and let him live.
My poor male hawke already lost all the rest of his family so I had to let his LI live just so i could run off with him and maybe make some sort of happy ending....
Until DA3 when Ander's makes his cameo even after you knifed him and hawke has mysteriously vanished like the warden....

Modifié par Nationalcity1, 11 septembre 2011 - 11:09 .

[Xilizhra]

Monica21 wrote...

filetemo wrote...

I killed anders because I was sick of the mage-templar war. I wish I could have permakilled fenris, merril, anders, meredith and orsino and left the f* out of kirkwall

I kill Anders because his cause annoys the ever-loving **** out of me. People point the "zealot" finger pretty quickly at Sebastian but fail to include Anders and Fenris, both actual zealots in their own right. There's a huge gap between being a man of faith and being a zealot.

In Kirkwall, it would seem that the gap is far smaller.

Of course, people may not call Anders a zealot because they don't feel his cause is unreasonable, a category that includes me. I'm willing to accept him being a zealot, but I don't think it's entirely a bad thing in his case

[Monica21]

Xilizhra wrote...
In Kirkwall, it would seem that the gap is far smaller.

Of course, people may not call Anders a zealot because they don't feel his cause is unreasonable, a category that includes me. I'm willing to accept him being a zealot, but I don't think it's entirely a bad thing in his case

Being reasonable doesn't have anything to do with zealotry. If Anders was reasonable then he wouldn't be a zealot. The Oxford English Dictionary defines "zealot" as "one who pursues his object with passionate ardour; usually in disparaging sense, one who is carried away by excess of zeal; an immoderate partisan, a fanatical enthusiast." Nothing about "fanatical enthusiast" screams "reasonable."

Now, whether his cause is just is a different matter, but then you get into an entirely different discussion. I do not believe that people should die just because Anders doesn't like the Kirkwall Templars. There are plenty of innocents who joined the Chantry simply because they believe in the Maker and in Andraste. What did a lay sister do to deserve to die at Anders' hand, or have you judged her guilty by association? Is she guilty just because she believes in the Maker, even if she's never had any contact with the Templars or any control over them? 

[Xilizhra]

Ultimately, guilt or innocence is irrelevant in this case. If it will bring about the greatest possible good, it's justified.
Now, will this bring about the greatest possible good? At the moment, we can't say. I personally wouldn't have destroyed the Chantry. I will, however, make the most of the situation, and so far as I can tell, I need Anders alive to do that.

[OmegaXI]

I let him live on my mage, I needed him and the The die has been cast. He did put me in the position to lead all the mages rebelling. That way if I could be the founder of a new free mage kingdom, and my diplo-mage could do it right this time and build a justice mage kingdom. So Anders would continue to be a useful tool to me, and as much as I disagree with alot of what he did, but hey he does get results. I felt it was too easy to kill him and that he should see what he started through to his end as punishment.

[Monica21]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ultimately, guilt or innocence is irrelevant in this case. If it will bring about the greatest possible good, it's justified.
Now, will this bring about the greatest possible good? At the moment, we can't say. I personally wouldn't have destroyed the Chantry. I will, however, make the most of the situation, and so far as I can tell, I need Anders alive to do that.

You've said something I have a hard time arguing against. I do have several points of disagreement though, in that once you decide to take someone's life, you better have a damn good reason for doing so. Unfortunately, I think Anders' reasons are crap, and mostly caused by paranoia. He almost killed an innocent mage girl because he thought there was a Chantry-wide conspiracy to make all mages Tranquil. He was wrong, but he didn't learn. He continued with his obsession until it got worse and worse and until he decided there needed to be a spark to light the fire and that he'd have to be the spark.

The problem with Anders is that he doesn't know where he ends and other mages begin. I can hardly blame him for disliking the Circle, but what he's doing is taking events in Kirkwall, combining them with his own experiences and then extrapolating them throughout Thedas. We have zero evidence that Greagoir is anything close to a tyrannical Templar, yet for some reason, Anders has determined that the Ferelden Circle should suffer, too. Just because mages run away doesn't make the Circle a bad thing. There will always be kids who try to run away from fat camp, but that doesn't make fat camp a bad thing.

As for the greater good, who determines what that will be? I still believe that mages can be extremely dangerous, both to themselves and to others, so who watches them? How do they learn? Who protects the population from accidents that happen while doing nothing more than sleeping? If the answer is simply looser controls, like allowing mages to see their families, then I fully support it. What I don't support is mass murder to achieve someone's idea of a "greater good."

[lobi]

I did not mind that the chantry got blowed up, would have done it myself if the option was available. Yes I killed Anders but more for what he was, than what he had done. He was an abomination with out control over that which possessed him. He was also annoying, which is unforgivable.