2340 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

We have zero evidence that Greagoir is anything close to a tyrannical Templar, yet for some reason, Anders has determined that the Ferelden Circle should suffer, too.

Wait, what? He orders Jowan Tranquilized and then killed for being entrapped by Irving and sends Lily to Aeonar. He seems like a fair dick to me.
As for the wider statement, the fact that all the Circles did rise up in rebellion speaks to me that Anders extrapolated the situation very well. It wasn't just a few mages disliking the situation, it was systematic, neverending oppression. The situation is inherently tyrannical and it could never be improved without drastic change involving weakening an established power structure.

[Monica21]

Xilizhra wrote...

We have zero evidence that Greagoir is anything close to a tyrannical Templar, yet for some reason, Anders has determined that the Ferelden Circle should suffer, too.

Wait, what? He orders Jowan Tranquilized and then killed for being entrapped by Irving and sends Lily to Aeonar. He seems like a fair dick to me.

Yes, because he wanted to destroy his phylactery and run away with Lily because he was a malifecar and he knew their charges would stick. She aided him because she loved him, even though affairs between sisters and mages are forbidden. Seems a reasonable punishment for a widely known crime. Neither one of them can claim innocence.

As for the wider statement, the fact that all the Circles did rise up in rebellion speaks to me that Anders extrapolated the situation very well. It wasn't just a few mages disliking the situation, it was systematic, neverending oppression. The situation is inherently tyrannical and it could never be improved without drastic change involving weakening an established power structure.

And you will always have mages who have no wish to escape. There are even mages in the Kirkwall Circle who don't want to escape and ask you to spare them if you side with the Templars. Just because all the Circles rebelled doesn't mean all the mages rebelled. It just means that the Templars lost control of the mages who did want to leave. That can't be systematic oppression of every mage.

[Morroian]

Monica21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

We have zero evidence that Greagoir is anything close to a tyrannical Templar, yet for some reason, Anders has determined that the Ferelden Circle should suffer, too.

Wait, what? He orders Jowan Tranquilized and then killed for being entrapped by Irving and sends Lily to Aeonar. He seems like a fair dick to me.

Yes, because he wanted to destroy his phylactery and run away with Lily because he was a malifecar and he knew their charges would stick. She aided him because she loved him, even though affairs between sisters and mages are forbidden. Seems a reasonable punishment for a widely known crime. Neither one of them can claim innocence.

Jowan I agree but not Lily, she didn't know he was a blood mage and Aoenar souinds like a horrific place to be sent to, not befitting her actual crime.

[Monica21]

Morroian wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

We have zero evidence that Greagoir is anything close to a tyrannical Templar, yet for some reason, Anders has determined that the Ferelden Circle should suffer, too.

Wait, what? He orders Jowan Tranquilized and then killed for being entrapped by Irving and sends Lily to Aeonar. He seems like a fair dick to me.

Yes, because he wanted to destroy his phylactery and run away with Lily because he was a malifecar and he knew their charges would stick. She aided him because she loved him, even though affairs between sisters and mages are forbidden. Seems a reasonable punishment for a widely known crime. Neither one of them can claim innocence.

Jowan I agree but not Lily, she didn't know he was a blood mage and Aoenar souinds like a horrific place to be sent to, not befitting her actual crime.

Sure it sounds terrible. That's probably why it was a bad idea to begin a forbidden relationship and help him destroy his phylactery. If she didn't know the exact punishment she had to have known it was fairly severe. 

[AbsoluteApril]

finished 1st playthrough today and have to say that this was a tough decision!

F!hawke mage had sided and helped Anders through the entire game (while rivalmancing Fenris). When everything went *boom* she was shocked (I knew it was coming, darn spoilers). She felt used and that their friendship wasn't real. Plus I had Varric kill his own brother (to save him), let Fenris kill his own sister (she's a traitor to family); It made sense that she would kill Anders both for betraying her and for putting a black mark against mages in the eyes of the rest of Thedas.

I inserted my own line of dialogue though*
H: You have to pay for what you've done.
A: I know. The sooner I die, the sooner my name lives on to inspire generations.
*H: No one will remember your name.
*stabbity stab*


poor Anders

[Boiny Bunny]

All I can say is that I truly wish that there had been a third option:

* Make Anders tranquil

[Daveros]

I did it, I killed Anders, and it broke my heart to see my Hawke do it. They'd really struggled through their relationship, with Hawke being pro-Templar, and when Anders said: "I'm glad it's you. I'm glad I was happy, atleast for a little while." I just... Oh, it really broke my heart.

[Xilizhra]

Yes, because he wanted to destroy his phylactery and run away with Lily because he was a malifecar and he knew their charges would stick. She aided him because she loved him, even though affairs between sisters and mages are forbidden. Seems a reasonable punishment for a widely known crime. Neither one of them can claim innocence.

Innocence is again irrelevant, but this time the other way around. Both punishments are grossly disproportionate and inherently unjust in any case, given the inherent injustice of the system in general.

And you will always have mages who have no wish to escape. There are even mages in the Kirkwall Circle who don't want to escape and ask you to spare them if you side with the Templars. Just because all the Circles rebelled doesn't mean all the mages rebelled. It just means that the Templars lost control of the mages who did want to leave. That can't be systematic oppression of every mage.

It seems that the majority still did wish to leave. That's all that's necessary.

[Monica21]

Xilizhra wrote...
Innocence is again irrelevant, but this time the other way around. Both punishments are grossly disproportionate and inherently unjust in any case, given the inherent injustice of the system in general.

Funny how innocence and guilt are relevant when you want them to be. Jowan and Lily are guilty and punished accordingly. It's unfortunate, but that's just too bad. I feel bad for them, but not worse than I feel for anyone else who's made poor decisions.

It seems that the majority still did wish to leave. That's all that's necessary.

Do you think it took a majority of mages in the the Ferelden Circle to require an annulment? No. It only took a few mages who knew and were willing to use blood magic. You have no idea who rebelled and how, just that the circles were lost.

[Vicious]

Anders wasn't right. He is nothing more than Justice's mouthpiece. He even wants to appeal to the Chantry peacefully, but his story of 'Me and Justice are one mind.' is complete BS and falls apart at the end of the game, when it's quite clear that Justice simply takes control of Anders' body whenever the hell he feels like it, and Anders has to fight to keep him down, or, in his own words 'scrabbling like a mad beast.'


To agree with Anders makes no sense, as even he admits what he did was desperately wrong.

[Xilizhra]

Funny how innocence and guilt are relevant when you want them to be. Jowan and Lily are guilty and punished accordingly. It's unfortunate, but that's just too bad. I feel bad for them, but not worse than I feel for anyone else who's made poor decisions.

Well, yes. The importance of innocence and guilt are highly subjective. However, I personally don't believe Jowan made a poor decision, given that he would end up Tranquilized otherwise. Lily may have, but she was uninformed. And in the end, it doesn't matter because the system is illegitimate in any case.

Do you think it took a majority of mages in the the Ferelden Circle to require an annulment? No. It only took a few mages who knew and were willing to use blood magic. You have no idea who rebelled and how, just that the circles were lost.

What it said specifically is that the Circles rose up, not just that the Chantry lost control. That implies that each Circle as a whole made the collective decision to rebel, and I can't say that that sounds implausible.

[Tatinger]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

All I can say is that I truly wish that there had been a third option:

* Make Anders tranquil

That would've been poetic justice, considering the fate of Karl.  Very cold.  If that was a third option, I'm not sure I could go through with it (just imagined the cut scene with Anders now, pleading and begging...*shiver*).

Vicious wrote...

Anders wasn't right. He is nothing more than Justice's mouthpiece. He even wants to appeal to the Chantry
peacefully, but his story of 'Me and Justice are one mind.' is complete BS and falls apart at the end of the game, when it's quite clear that Justice simply takes control of Anders' body whenever the hell he feels like it, and Anders has to fight to keep him down, or, in his own words 'scrabbling like a mad beast.'

To agree with Anders makes no sense, as even he admits what he did was desperately wrong.

Also, from a gameplay standpoint, I think it's kind of pointless to have three mages in your roster of characters -- especially when Bethany can do everything that Anders can...only better.  In this way, I think the game helps you 'guide the knife', as it were.  The blood mages are out of control and Anders has committed a terrible Guy Fawkes-like atrocity (leaving aside the fact that your mother was murdered by a necromancer or that Anders, under the influence of Justice, wanted to murder a little girl, as you allude to).  It's kind of hard to put all that aside and let him walk free.  If I had played through as a mage I might've had more understanding but as it was presented to me, I had to go all Mutant Registration Act on the mages.

Modifié par Tatinger, 12 septembre 2011 - 03:38 .

[Xilizhra]

That would've been poetic justice, considering the fate of Karl. Very cold. If that was a third option, I'm not sure I could go through with it (just imagined the cut scene with Anders now, pleading and begging...*shiver*).

Impossible. Justice can temporarily remove Tranquility from other people just by manifesting near them; he acts as a permanent, unbreakable connection to the Fade. In any case, if anyone tried it, Anders would gladly let Justice go berserk and either kill anyone around him or die trying.

If I had played through as a mage I might have more understanding but as it was I had to go all Mutant Registration Act on the mages.

You know, dick though Iron Man may have been, I don't think he ever actually resorted to genocide.

[Monica21]

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, yes. The importance of innocence and guilt are highly subjective. However, I personally don't believe Jowan made a poor decision, given that he would end up Tranquilized otherwise. Lily may have, but she was uninformed. And in the end, it doesn't matter because the system is illegitimate in any case.

Innocence and guilt are not subjective when there are laws in place specifically prohibiting their actions. And even if Lily didn't know Jowan was a blood mage, she knew she should not be involved with a mage and she certainly knew better than to destroy one's phylactery. It's not enough to say, "Oh, if I'd known the punishment would be so harsh I wouldn't have done it."

How is the system illegitimate?

What it said specifically is that the Circles rose up, not just that the Chantry lost control. That implies that each Circle as a whole made the collective decision to rebel, and I can't say that that sounds implausible.

And I find it highly implausible that every mage in every Circle rebelled. There will always be mages like Wynne and there will always be mages like the ones in Kirkwall who ask you not to kill them.

[Xilizhra]

Innocence and guilt are not subjective when there are laws in place specifically prohibiting their actions. And even if Lily didn't know Jowan was a blood mage, she knew she should not be involved with a mage and she certainly knew better than to destroy one's phylactery. It's not enough to say, "Oh, if I'd known the punishment would be so harsh I wouldn't have done it."

And innocence and guilt are irrelevant when the law is corrupt.

How is the system illegitimate?

It governs mages with no input from them on how the system may work, just in matters of minor policy decisions, and even those can be overturned. It gains power from no popular support whatsoever, only Chantry edicts, and inflicts a grossly unjust imprisonment and frequent torture against mages by its very existence.

And I find it highly implausible that every mage in every Circle rebelled. There will always be mages like Wynne and there will always be mages like the ones in Kirkwall who ask you not to kill them.

Likely there were. The Loyalist lickspittles couldn't have faded completely in ten years. Perhaps they can stay out of the fighting; I would hope that they'd not try to support the templars.

[Monica21]

Xilizhra wrote...
You know, dick though Iron Man may have been, I don't think he ever actually resorted to genocide.

Just because you keep saying it's genocide doesn't mean that it is.

[Xilizhra]

Monica21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
You know, dick though Iron Man may have been, I don't think he ever actually resorted to genocide.

Just because you keep saying it's genocide doesn't mean that it is.

Indeed. The fact that it is means that it is.

[Monica21]

Xilizhra wrote...
And innocence and guilt are irrelevant when the law is corrupt.

Corrupt how?

It governs mages with no input from them on how the system may work, just in matters of minor policy decisions, and even those can be overturned. It gains power from no popular support whatsoever, only Chantry edicts, and inflicts a grossly unjust imprisonment and frequent torture against mages by its very existence.

Yes, because this isn't a democracy. Ferelden is a kind of feudal monarchy with heavy influence from its church. Welcome to Poly Sci 101. That doesn't make the government corrupt or illegitimate. It just makes not a democracy.

Likely there were. The Loyalist lickspittles couldn't have faded completely in ten years. Perhaps they can stay out of the fighting; I would hope that they'd not try to support the templars.

Wynne would support the Templars and I'm quite sure there are others like her. Lickspittle or not, you're wrong about every mage rising up to rebel.

[erilben]

Vicious wrote...

Anders wasn't right. He is nothing more than Justice's mouthpiece. He even wants to appeal to the Chantry peacefully, but his story of 'Me and Justice are one mind.' is complete BS and falls apart at the end of the game, when it's quite clear that Justice simply takes control of Anders' body whenever the hell he feels like it, and Anders has to fight to keep him down, or, in his own words 'scrabbling like a mad beast.'


To agree with Anders makes no sense, as even he admits what he did was desperately wrong.

That's only the rivalry path. Only on the rivalry path you see Justice taking control over Anders in Act 3, and then Anders will say that Justice took him over to bomb the Chantry. You've caused Anders to split from Justice, but it doesn't do any good. Justice just possess Anders then.

On the friendship path, you are encouraging the merger between Anders and Justice. Therefore, you don't have Justice taking control in Act 3. Anders then says he and Justice are one now.

Modifié par erilben, 12 septembre 2011 - 03:53 .

[Xilizhra]

Yes, because this isn't a democracy. Ferelden is a kind of feudal monarchy with heavy influence from its church. Welcome to Poly Sci 101. That doesn't make the government corrupt or illegitimate. It just makes not a democracy.

Yes, and I'm not talking about Ferelden's government, which may be full of idiots but isn't based solely around unjust imprisonment.

Wynne would support the Templars and I'm quite sure there are others like her. Lickspittle or not, you're wrong about every mage rising up to rebel.

You think Wynne would support the templars? She flat-out tries to kill you if you want to proceed with the Annulment in Broken Circle. She wouldn't try to start a war, but she'd fight as hard as possible to defend the innocents on the mage side.

[Tatinger]

Xilizhra wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
You know, dick though Iron Man may have been, I don't think he ever actually resorted to genocide.

Just because you keep saying it's genocide doesn't mean that it is.

Indeed. The fact that it is means that it is.

Excellent argument.  Now, if you could just reveal your definition of genocide....

[Monica21]

Xilizhra wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
You know, dick though Iron Man may have been, I don't think he ever actually resorted to genocide.

Just because you keep saying it's genocide doesn't mean that it is.

Indeed. The fact that it is means that it is.

Remember that time when I defined genocide for you and told you that even if it was that there still isn't a UN in Thedas to police it and punish it so it still wouldn't be against the law even if it were genocide? That's still true. Genocide is a modern term for an entire racial or ethnic group. It's Darfur. It's the ****s. You're throwing around a very weighted term to represent something in a video game that you clearly don't understand. It does not stand for a single Circle of mages. You like that it makes the Templars sound like horrible people, but you're still using it wrong, and you're still completely missing the point of why you shouldn't use it.

[Xilizhra]

Excellent argument. Now, if you could just reveal your definition of genocide....

Righto.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide
"The deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, Race (classification of humans) , religious, or national group",
As magehood is determined largely by biology, I believe it's fair to say that they count as a racial group, as a classification of humans (and elves).

[Monica21]

Xilizhra wrote...
Yes, and I'm not talking about Ferelden's government, which may be full of idiots but isn't based solely around unjust imprisonment.

You are talking about Ferelden's government because the Chantry is a state church. It has authority because Ferelden lets it have authority.

You think Wynne would support the templars? She flat-out tries to kill you if you want to proceed with the Annulment in Broken Circle. She wouldn't try to start a war, but she'd fight as hard as possible to defend the innocents on the mage side.

She tries to kill you because she thinks the Ferelden tower can still be saved. She's a devout Andrastian who thinks mages should be in the Circle. Yes, she would side with the Templars.

[Monica21]

Xilizhra wrote...

Excellent argument. Now, if you could just reveal your definition of genocide....

Righto.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide
"The deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, Race (classification of humans) , religious, or national group",
As magehood is determined largely by biology, I believe it's fair to say that they count as a racial group, as a classification of humans (and elves).

They can't be a racial group if they are made up of different races, including Qunari. They can't be a religious group because being born with magic is not a religion. They can't be an ethnic or national group because there are mages from different ethnicities all over Thedas. 

Wikipedia fails yet again.