2340 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Remember that time when I defined genocide for you and told you that even if it was that there still isn't a UN in Thedas to police it and punish it so it still wouldn't be against the law even if it were genocide? That's still true. Genocide is a modern term for an entire racial or ethnic group. It's Darfur. It's the ****s. You're throwing around a very weighted term to represent something in a video game that you clearly don't understand. It does not stand for a single Circle of mages. You like that it makes the Templars sound like horrible people, but you're still using it wrong, and you're still completely missing the point of why you shouldn't use it.

Kirkwall is a sovereign state. The mages are a biological group within that sovereign state. The templars aim to wipe out every member of that group in that sovereign state. The parallel remains intact, though if it would help, I can start using the term "mass murder" more often.

You are talking about Ferelden's government because the Chantry is a state church. It has authority because Ferelden lets it have authority.

Ah yes, "lets." Attempts to expel the templars from anywhere historically go... poorly, though Alistair's doing better at working around them lately.

She tries to kill you because she thinks the Ferelden tower can still be saved. She's a devout Andrastian who thinks mages should be in the Circle. Yes, she would side with the Templars.

She wants to see mages alive in the Circle (ten years earlier), not dead outside it. The latter is the templars' position, and why they left the Chantry in the first place, so far as I can tell. The most I could see her doing is trying to stay neutral, but that'd still be abandoning her people.

hey can't be a racial group if they are made up of different races, including Qunari.

There are no kossith mages in the Circle, and humans and elves can produce reproductively viable offspring, thus making them biologically the same species.
In fact, that doesn't even make any sense. If they were trying to kill kossith mages, it wouldn't be less genocide, it'd be genocide plus one.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 12 septembre 2011 - 04:07 .

[Tatinger]

Xilizhra wrote...

Excellent argument. Now, if you could just reveal your definition of genocide....

"The deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, Race (classification of humans) , religious, or national group",

As magehood is determined largely by biology, I believe it's fair to say that they count as a racial group, as a classification of humans (and elves).

Yes, but, um, it's not the wholesale destruction of mages, it's the suppression of their freedom -- which, I think, are two very different things.  It's more like indentured, Feudalistic servitude, than outright destruction or elimination.

It's a fine point, I agree, but when you put characters like Anders (who doesn't like The Circle) next to Bethany and Wynne (who accept it as a necessary evil), I'm not why you think his point of view is the correct one.

[Monica21]

Xilizhra wrote...
Kirkwall is a sovereign state. The mages are a biological group within that sovereign state. The templars aim to wipe out every member of that group in that sovereign state. The parallel remains intact, though if it would help, I can start using the term "mass murder" more often.

It can't be a parallel. It either is or is not genocide and it's not. A biological group of different races is not its own race. And mass murder would actually be more accurate, nevermind that I'm constantly defending myself against blood mages most of the game. What you call mass murder I call self defense.

Ah yes, "lets." Attempts to expel the templars from anywhere historically go... poorly, though Alistair's doing better at working around them lately.

Why would Ferelden (or Kirkwall) want to expel the Templars or the Chantry?

She wants to see mages alive in the Circle (ten years earlier), not dead outside it. The latter is the templars' position, and why they left the Chantry in the first place, so far as I can tell. The most I could see her doing is trying to stay neutral, but that'd still be abandoning her people.

If you talked to Wynne at all in Origins, then you know her feelings on mages and the Circle and how she came to those feelings. She would not see it as abandoning her people, she would see her people abandoning her.

There are no kossith mages in the Circle, and humans and elves can produce reproductively viable offspring, thus making them biologically the same species.

You're the one trying to put all mages into a racial group to fit the definition you prefer. If there are magic users in the Qunari then, by your own logic, they must be part of that racial group.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Monica21 wrote...

She tries to kill you because she thinks the Ferelden tower can still be saved. She's a devout Andrastian who thinks mages should be in the Circle. Yes, she would side with the Templars.

When faced with the same information as Hawke? Not likely. Wynne supports the Circle because she believes there's no other way, and by and large, Ferelden's Circle has just enough moderation to keep that viewpoint alive. Faced with Meredith issuing an extermination order against a Circle for the actions of one unaffilated mage? I don't think she'd see eye to eye on that one, seeing as she could easily be one of those mages in the Circle, had circumstances been different. Being devoutly religious does not necessarily mean she will be a doormat.

[Monica21]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

She tries to kill you because she thinks the Ferelden tower can still be saved. She's a devout Andrastian who thinks mages should be in the Circle. Yes, she would side with the Templars.

When faced with the same information as Hawke? Not likely. Wynne supports the Circle because she believes there's no other way, and by and large, Ferelden's Circle has just enough moderation to keep that viewpoint alive. Faced with Meredith issuing an extermination order against a Circle for the actions of one unaffilated mage? I don't think she'd see eye to eye on that one, seeing as she could easily be one of those mages in the Circle, had circumstances been different. Being devoutly religious does not necessarily mean she will be a doormat.

I'm referring to the broader mage/templar conflict, not specifically the situation in Kirkwall.

[Xilizhra]

Yes, but, um, it's not the wholesale destruction of mages, it's the suppression of their freedom -- which, I think, are two very different things. It's more like indentured, Feudalistic servitude, than outright destruction or elimination.

It's a fine point, I agree, but when you put characters like Anders (who doesn't like The Circle) next to Bethany and Wynne (who accept it as a necessary evil), I'm not why you think his point of view is the correct one.

I was referring to the Annulment as genocide, not everyday imprisonment. As for Bethany, she comes around to believing that the Circles as they exist now are an unnecessary evil, and Wynne... let's just say that she's not right about everything. Such as the supposed nobility of the Grey Wardens.

It can't be a parallel. It either is or is not genocide and it's not. A biological group of different races is not its own race. And mass murder would actually be more accurate, nevermind that I'm constantly defending myself against blood mages most of the game. What you call mass murder I call self defense.

It's a biological grouping within the same species. It's possible, for instance, for Jews to be both ethnically Caucasian and ethnically Semitic.

Why would Ferelden (or Kirkwall) want to expel the Templars or the Chantry?

Just ask Alistair.

If you talked to Wynne at all in Origins, then you know her feelings on mages and the Circle and how she came to those feelings. She would not see it as abandoning her people, she would see her people abandoning her.

I did. And I believe you're grossly incorrect, though I doubt it matters as she's almost certainly dead now.

[Monica21]

Xilizhra wrote...
It's a biological grouping within the same species. It's possible, for instance, for Jews to be both ethnically Caucasian and ethnically Semitic.

Remember your Wikipedia definition? It included religion. Magic is not a religion but Judaism is.

Just ask Alistair.

Sure. (I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. Ask Alistair when? In Origins? In DA2? When he's drunk, when he's king, when he's a Warden? What?)

I did. And I believe you're grossly incorrect, though I doubt it matters as she's almost certainly dead now.

Oh, maybe. But who knows? Maybe the nice spirit is still keeping her propped up.

Modifié par Monica21, 12 septembre 2011 - 04:31 .

[Stoomkal]

Wow.

Lets try to keep Real World Paralells at a minimum, people.

The Jew comment is debatable - if you are Jewish... so hey, lets not?

Trying to define where Jewish ethnicity begins and culture ends is a fool's game... it proves whatever you would like to about "Race"...

And you cannot fit "genocide" into any pattern you please to fit your argument - it is a very serious issue about racial hatred of an entire group for having similar features and therefore being less.

The mage issue is *not* a Jewish issue - if so, I could make a better case that they are like AIDS victims in the eighties - locked away in towers and treated as tainted.

Then we would be making things even less tasteful, wouldn't we?

[Xilizhra]

Remember your Wikipedia definition? It included religion. Magic is not a religion.

If it'll spare any further semantic derailings, I'll go back to "mass murder." And continue blasting down all templars or others who would try to squelch my people (assuming they don't surrender).

[Monica21]

Xilizhra wrote...

Remember your Wikipedia definition? It included religion. Magic is not a religion.

If it'll spare any further semantic derailings, I'll go back to "mass murder." And continue blasting down all templars or others who would try to squelch my people (assuming they don't surrender).

"Your people" live inside your computer. 

[Xilizhra]

Monica21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Remember your Wikipedia definition? It included religion. Magic is not a religion.

If it'll spare any further semantic derailings, I'll go back to "mass murder." And continue blasting down all templars or others who would try to squelch my people (assuming they don't surrender).

"Your people" live inside your computer. 

Well, yes. Theoretically, we could realize that all of this is utterly pointless and never talk about it again, but I doubt that'll happen.

[Tatinger]

Xilizhra wrote...

I did. And I believe you're grossly incorrect, though I doubt it matters as she's almost certainly dead now.

Zing.

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, but, um, it's not the wholesale destruction of mages, it's the suppression of their freedom --
which, I think, are two very different things. It's more like indentured, Feudalistic servitude, than outright destruction or elimination.

It's a fine point, I agree, but when you put characters like Anders (who doesn't like The Circle) next to Bethany and Wynne (who accept it as a necessary evil), I'm not why you think his point of view is the correct one.

I was referring to the Annulment as genocide, not everyday imprisonment. As for Bethany, she comes around to believing that the Circles as they exist now are an unnecessary evil, and Wynne... let's just say that she's not right about everything. Such as the supposed nobility of the Grey Wardens.

Yes, when things get flowing, all hot-and-heavy, with back-and-forths between several posters all happening at once, it can be kind of hard to keep track of the finer points of the sub-arguments within the broader issue being discussed.

As for The Annulment issue, I agree.  If there was an option, during The End Game, to basically say "Whoa, wait, Meredith, I agree with you that the mages need to be rounded up and brought in but you want to do what?", it certainly might've tempered my stance, somewhat (actually, come to think of it, it did when I accepted the surrender of the two mages prostrating themselves before me in Templar Hall), but I think based on everything that the game presents you with up to that point, it's kind of hard to ignore the direction in which you're being guided (at least for some of us, anyway).

I mean, the beauty about this game is that these kind of philosophical back-and-forths can go on forever (and far be it from me to make you defend your choice of actions in the game tooth-and-nail) but if I had to weigh the sage advice of Wynne and the apparent happiness of my sister, against the extremist views of crazy old Anders, well....

Modifié par Tatinger, 12 septembre 2011 - 05:10 .

[Xilizhra]

I mean, the beauty about this game is that these kind of philosophical back-and-forths can go on forever (and far be it from me to make you defend your choice of actions in the game tooth-and-nail) but if I had to weigh the sage advice of Wynne and the apparent happiness of my sister, against the crazy extremist views of Anders, well...

Ah, the sister whose compatriots you viciously murder? Such family loyalty.

[Tatinger]

Xilizhra wrote...

I mean, the beauty about this game is that these kind of philosophical back-and-forths can go on forever (and far be it from me to make you defend your choice of actions in the game tooth-and-nail) but if I had to weigh the sage advice of Wynne and the apparent happiness of my sister, against the crazy extremist views of Anders, well...

Ah, the sister whose compatriots you viciously murder? Such family loyalty.

Somebody loves Anders...somebody loves Anders...

Modifié par Tatinger, 12 septembre 2011 - 04:51 .

[Xilizhra]

Anders has his place, albeit not in my bed (which is too full of elven maleficarum anyway).

[Reno_Tarshil]

No, I needed a healer.

[Tatinger]

Reno_Tarshil wrote...

No, I needed a healer.

Well, if it makes you feel any better, you could always label your healing and restoration potions: Anders 1, Anders 2, Anders 3, etc., etc..  They're just as effective.  And less preachy.

[UltiPup]

Reno_Tarshil wrote...

No, I needed a healer.

That was the realization that I came to after I killed Anders ( I sided with the templars and was Friends, I literally had no choice ). No healer, 10 poultices left. I was saving after every damn battle.

[Quething]

Tatinger wrote...

I mean, the beauty about this game is that these kind of philosophical back-and-forths can go on forever (and far be it from me to make you defend your choice of actions in the game tooth-and-nail) but if I had to weigh the sage advice of Wynne and the apparent happiness of my sister, against the extremist views of crazy old Anders, well....

Point of clarity: are you saying here that you assisted in the Annulling for Bethany's sake?

[phaonica]

UltiPup wrote...

Reno_Tarshil wrote...

No, I needed a healer.

That was the realization that I came to after I killed Anders ( I sided with the templars and was Friends, I literally had no choice ). No healer, 10 poultices left. I was saving after every damn battle.

I had the same realization the first time I got into combat after killing Anders. I was going, oh yeah, I guess combat is going to be quite a bit more difficult now... But I managed.

[Tatinger]

Quething wrote...

Tatinger wrote...

I mean, the beauty about this game is that these kind of philosophical back-and-forths can go on forever (and far be it from me to make you defend your choice of actions in the game tooth-and-nail) but if I had to weigh the sage advice of Wynne and the apparent happiness of my sister, against the extremist views of crazy old Anders, well....

Point of clarity: are you saying here that you assisted in the Annulling for Bethany's sake?

No, not at all.  I sided with The Templars, in the aptly named Final Straw episode, because Anders forced my hand to do so.  I could no longer ignore his terrorist actions, the blood mages running amok in the city, the death of my mother at the hands of necromancer, the dangers of even seemingly sweet, innocent, mages falling off the wagon (re: Merrill and her demon/mirror thing) etc., etc..  Anders questionable decision-making (in which he used me as an accomplice to murder an innocent woman, let's not forget) was what tipped the balance in favour of me choosing to aid Meredith and her forces.  Even if Bethany hadn't joined with me, after Orsino's turn to blood magic, I still believe that it was the only course of action I could I take which would make any sense to my character and the trials and tribulations she had gone through up to that point.  In point of fact, I was half expecting that I'd have to kill Bethany as well, just to see the full tragedy of the Hawke family story come to full fruition.

Modifié par Tatinger, 12 septembre 2011 - 06:33 .

[megski]

I did on my first playthrough out of sheer dwarf rage from a previous life, haha. The more I play the game though, it makes sense to do it out of mercy. I'm not sure Ander's can control himself anymore, I was thinking that at the end of DA2. Then running through legacy and Justice came out and summoned shades, I was like wtf?! Yup, it's time to take old yeller behind the shed.

ETA:
Sorry, I didn't realize this thread was so old!  I feel like a dummy 

Modifié par megski, 12 septembre 2011 - 06:27 .

[Tatinger]

megski wrote...

I did on my first playthrough out of sheer dwarf rage from a previous life, haha. The more I play the game though, it makes sense to do it out of mercy. I'm not sure Ander's can control himself anymore, I was thinking that at the end of DA2. Then running through legacy and Justice came out and summoned shades, I was like wtf?! Yup, it's time to take old yeller behind the shed.

ETA:
Sorry, I didn't realize this thread was so old!  I feel like a dummy 

I was just about to amend my post with: you have to know when to put a mad dog down.

Modifié par Tatinger, 12 septembre 2011 - 06:48 .

[Quething]

Okay, that makes more sense.

Tatinger wrote...

in which he used me as an accomplice to murder an innocent woman

This is actually why main!Hawke killed him. Her general inclination, particularly with a friend and a healer/Grey Warden responsible for a lot of good, would have been the same as Merrill's - let him work and try to atone, to help fix the mess he made and make up his betrayal of the mages by trying to protect them. As a relatively devout Andrastean with a very, very strong sense of what you do and do not do to your family, though, him betraying her and making her culpable in Elthina's death made her hulk out.

I still want an option to make Sebastian do it, though. If I tell Anders to run, just get the hell out of my sight, how does it make sense that I then snap violently and threateningly at Sebastian in his defense? Why can't I just say "fine, just... kill him, or don't, or I don't even... dammit, I have mages to save, I can't deal with you two right now, do whatever you like" and just leave for the Gallows?

[Tatinger]

Quething wrote...

Okay, that makes more sense.

Tatinger wrote...

in which he used me as an accomplice to murder an innocent woman

This is actually why main!Hawke killed him. Her general inclination, particularly with a friend and a healer/Grey Warden responsible for a lot of good, would have been the same as Merrill's - let him work and try to atone, to help fix the mess he made and make up his betrayal of the mages by trying to protect them. As a relatively devout Andrastean with a very, very strong sense of what you do and do not do to your family, though, him betraying her and making her culpable in Elthina's death made her hulk out.

I still want an option to make Sebastian do it, though. If I tell Anders to run, just get the hell out of my sight, how does it make sense that I then snap violently and threateningly at Sebastian in his defense? Why can't I just say "fine, just... kill him, or don't, or I don't even... dammit, I have mages to save, I can't deal with you two right now, do whatever you like" and just leave for the Gallows?

Truth be told, I was tempted to do that very thing -- I really don't need or like Sebastian so losing him to my party wouldn't be that big an issue (except, as The Champion of Kirkwall, I don't think I'd want to subject my citizens to a Starkhaven invasion for something Anders should have to pay for anyway).   So, long story short, when all was said and done, I couldn't just let him walk away after everything mentioned above and, strangely, Anders taking some satisfaction in his death being a rallying point for the mages, made the decision easier.  If he could die satisfied for some cause he believed in, even after all the destruction he caused, then so be it (maybe I owed him that much).  I'm sure there's some irony to be had here with Anders having to face his own brand of justice, but I'm just too tired to explore it fully.

Modifié par Tatinger, 12 septembre 2011 - 06:51 .