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Did anyone else kill Anders?


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#1076
megski

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Tatinger wrote...

megski wrote...

I did on my first playthrough out of sheer dwarf rage from a previous life, haha. The more I play the game though, it makes sense to do it out of mercy. I'm not sure Ander's can control himself anymore, I was thinking that at the end of DA2. Then running through legacy and Justice came out and summoned shades, I was like wtf?! Yup, it's time to take old yeller behind the shed.

ETA:
Sorry, I didn't realize this thread was so old!  I feel like a dummy :pinched:


I was just about to amend my post with: you have to know when to put a mad dog down. :)


Haha great minds I guess!  Anders, oh gosh, bleh.  I have a playthrough where my hawke is in a relationship with him, so we'll see how that plays out.  If you dump him at the end of everything, he says his mission in life is more important anyway, in a nice way?  But if you stay together, he talks about kids and stuff.  What will happen if their kid mentions something he disagrees with? Will justice pop out and tazer him to death?  Only time will tell...

#1077
DKJaigen

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Tatinger wrote...

Quething wrote...

Tatinger wrote...

I mean, the beauty about this game is that these kind of philosophical back-and-forths can go on forever (and far be it from me to make you defend your choice of actions in the game tooth-and-nail) but if I had to weigh the sage advice of Wynne and the apparent happiness of my sister, against the extremist views of crazy old Anders, well....


Point of clarity: are you saying here that you assisted in the Annulling for Bethany's sake?


No, not at all.  I sided with The Templars, in the aptly named Final Straw episode, because Anders forced my hand to do so.  I could no longer ignore his terrorist actions, the blood mages running amok in the city, the death of my mother at the hands of necromancer, the dangers of even seemingly sweet, innocent, mages falling off the wagon (re: Merrill and her demon/mirror thing) etc., etc..  Anders questionable decision-making (in which he used me as an accomplice to murder an innocent woman, let's not forget) was what tipped the balance in favour of me choosing to aid Meredith and her forces.  Even if Bethany hadn't joined with me, after Orsino's turn to blood magic, I still believe that it was the only course of action I could I take which would make any sense to my character and the trials and tribulations she had gone through up to that point.  In point of fact, I was half expecting that I'd have to kill Bethany as well, just to see the full tragedy of the Hawke family story come to full fruition.


Mate it is considerd a mark of civilisation that you judge people as an individual and not by group. And a good thing it is because if we didnt the middle east would be a smoking crater after 9/11. Its your choice how you wish to roleplay but if you say something like this to me in RL i would LMAO.


Just ask Alistair.

Sure.
(I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. Ask Alistair when?
In Origins? In DA2? When he's drunk, when he's king, when he's a Warden?
What?)


I got the feeling it doesnt matter if alistair is king anywayThe political stage is set and the fereldans are now on a collision course with the chantry. My theory is this: with the mage/templar conflict expanding to fereldan and the threat of an orlesian invasion it will look to many fereldans that the chantry/templars are making a preepmtive for the orlesian empire against the mages in preperation for the invasion. The commoners may not thrust the mages but they despise the orlesians far more

Modifié par DKJaigen, 12 septembre 2011 - 08:42 .


#1078
Tatinger

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DKJaigen wrote...

Tatinger wrote...

Quething wrote...

Tatinger wrote...

I mean, the beauty about this game is that these kind of philosophical back-and-forths can go on forever (and far be it from me to make you defend your choice of actions in the game tooth-and-nail) but if I had to weigh the sage advice of Wynne and the apparent happiness of my sister, against the extremist views of crazy old Anders, well....


Point of clarity: are you saying here that you assisted in the Annulling for Bethany's sake?


No, not at all.  I sided with The Templars, in the aptly named Final Straw episode, because Anders forced my hand to do so.  I could no longer ignore his terrorist actions, the blood mages running amok in the city, the death of my mother at the hands of necromancer, the dangers of even seemingly sweet, innocent, mages falling off the wagon (re: Merrill and her demon/mirror thing) etc., etc..  Anders questionable decision-making (in which he used me as an accomplice to murder an innocent woman, let's not forget) was what tipped the balance in favour of me choosing to aid Meredith and her forces.  Even if Bethany hadn't joined with me, after Orsino's turn to blood magic, I still believe that it was the only course of action I could I take which would make any sense to my character and the trials and tribulations she had gone through up to that point.  In point of fact, I was half expecting that I'd have to kill Bethany as well, just to see the full tragedy of the Hawke family story come to full fruition.


Mate it is considerd a mark of civilisation that you judge people as an individual and not by group. And a good thing it is because if we didnt the middle east would be a smoking crater after 9/11. Its your choice how you wish to roleplay but if you say something like this to me in RL i would LMAO.



Uh, did you miss the part where Anders killed an old lady and made you an accomplice to that murder?  It's a major part of the story, you know.  I would say that makes him accountable for his actions. And don't go politicking about 9/11 -- this isn't the forum for that.  As you said, it's everyone's choice how they roleplay this particular section of the game -- I defended my own choice when questioned about it (and thought I put up some very good reasons as to why, given the circumstances your character is put in).  If you have a different take on matters (and decided to let Anders walk) then please post your reasons for doing so like others have here but don't instigate ad hominem attacks on somebody with a different viewpoint than yours.

Modifié par Tatinger, 12 septembre 2011 - 08:58 .


#1079
Xilizhra

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No, not at all. I sided with The Templars, in the aptly named Final Straw episode, because Anders forced my hand to do so. I could no longer ignore his terrorist actions, the blood mages running amok in the city, the death of my mother at the hands of necromancer, the dangers of even seemingly sweet, innocent, mages falling off the wagon (re: Merrill and her demon/mirror thing) etc., etc..

And so, you became worse than all of them combined. Good job.

Uh, did you miss the part where Anders killed an old lady and made you an accomplice to that murder?

You say that like Elthina is innocent or something, or being old and female contributes to innocence. Not that I believe anyone deserves death, but Elthina is one of those people whose death I'm not overly concerned about; in fact, I was only really upset with Anders for starting those fires. If simply killing Elthina would have helped the situation, I'd have done it myself.

#1080
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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Ahh, the old genocide debate. People seem to forget some interesting things about what constitutes genocide. Including:

1. Exterminating all the members of a particular religion is counted under the UN definition of genocide. Yet religion is not a racial, ethnic, or genetic characteristic, it is generally a combination of upbringing, social norms, and personal beliefs. Some religions exist primarily amongst specific ethnic groups, but the majority don't, and have members of various races, ethnic, and cultural groups.

And if a leader were to exterminate all the members of a particular religion within their jurisdiction, that would definitely be classed as genocide, despite those people having no racial or necessarily ethnic relation to one another. So genocide is not limited to racial groups.

2. Exterminating all people of one particular group within a country, city state, or other political entity is genocide, even if members of the victim group live freely in other countries. Genocide involves political entities who target and try to wipe out members within their jurisadiction. To use the best known example, the Na zis, when they targeted certain groups for elimination, they only had authority to do so in places they had authority in, including conquored countries. But they were unable to do anything about Jews/Slavs/Gypsies that lived outside of their jurisdiction (Like britian, US, ect). So while Hitler managed to nearly wipe out Europe's jewish population, the jewish communities outside of Na zi jurisdiction were untouched.

yet no one would call what the Na zis did anything but genocide, even if they did not exterminate the entire Jewish population of the planet. They tried to exterminate those people they found subhuman wherever they held rule.

3. genocide is not even limited to direct killing or extermination. other activities that are considered by the UN to be genocide include:

A. Controlling or preventing reporduction in the targeted group to keep their numbers down and limited. Systematically reducing the ability of the target population to reproduce, and removing children/breaking up families to keep the target population under control, with the explicit purpose of reducing and lessesning numbers of the target group. And of course, we know this happens alot even during the best of times, in the Chantry system.
B. Denial of basic social, cultural, and political protection from abuse, harrassment, and physical violence, when such protections are provided for the population in general.. In other words, making it perfectly legal to abuse, torture, or deprive of basic necessities, a particular group, with the purpose of keeping them in a limited, deprived state.
C. Segregating and locking up a particular group, away from society, and inflicting a seperate set of standards on a group, with the intention of destroying the collective unit, or wiping out/limiting their ability to maintain a specific social/cultural norm that the group has survived with.

Given the fact that genocide often legally applies to groups with no genetic relation to each other whatsoever, and given that Circles seem to exist in a seperate culture outside of the social norms, and given that mages everywhere in Andrastian Thedas are targets for assault or murder when they live outside of the Circles, then yeah, I think it does constitute as genocide, the annulment. But thats not the only thing, as I pointed out, the Chantry's policies and rules regarding mages in general do fit several definitions of genocide, and can be reasonably considered as such. That mages aren't a "race" as people think of such things doesn't really matter. They are a genetically similar group, and due to their ostracism and imprisonment from society, seem to form a sort of culture of their own outside social norms.

#1081
Guest_Imperium Alpha_*

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Everybody should kill Anders /thread

#1082
mredders91

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yes

#1083
Catriana

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Wait, I don't get it. Have these people who hate on the Templar play throughs actually done them? Because here's how I see it:

Side with the Mages: You fight and kill templars and mages(the ones that turn on you) and then get to the top of the tower. Meredith and the Templars reach you (I'm assuming most are doing a sweep of the tower to complete the Rite of Annulment), Orsino boss battle, Meredith Boss Battle. You then leave Kirkwall, hoorah.

Side with the Templars: Same thing, up until the Gallows. As you reach the Gallows, some mages come out and ask for their lives to be spared. You have the choice not only to spare them, but also any other Mage in the tower who surrenders. You can even get Cullen to back you up. This means NO sweep of the tower, no more mages beyond the ones you have to fight anyway get murdered. You fight Orsino, then Meredith.

The game makes it sound like if you choose the Templars that you are GOING to commit mass murder, but once you reach the gallows, you can stand up for the mages and bring some semblance of order to Meredith's crazy, which is the entire point of siding with the Templars to begin with. It's about restoring order. You don't get that if you side with the mages.

Oh yeah, and they make you Viscount.

Personally, I find the Templar option to be the more humane one.

#1084
rak72

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Xilizhra wrote...

No, not at all. I sided with The Templars, in the aptly named Final Straw episode, because Anders forced my hand to do so. I could no longer ignore his terrorist actions, the blood mages running amok in the city, the death of my mother at the hands of necromancer, the dangers of even seemingly sweet, innocent, mages falling off the wagon (re: Merrill and her demon/mirror thing) etc., etc..


And so, you became worse than all of them combined. Good job.


Uh, did you miss the part where Anders killed an old lady and made you an accomplice to that murder?

You say that like Elthina is innocent or something, or being old and female contributes to innocence. Not that I believe anyone deserves death, but Elthina is one of those people whose death I'm not overly concerned about; in fact, I was only really upset with Anders for starting those fires. If simply killing Elthina would have helped the situation, I'd have done it myself.


You're so full of it.  The mages are a clear and present danger and must be dealt with.

#1085
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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Catriana wrote...

Wait, I don't get it. Have these people who hate on the Templar play throughs actually done them? Because here's how I see it:

Side with the Mages: You fight and kill templars and mages(the ones that turn on you) and then get to the top of the tower. Meredith and the Templars reach you (I'm assuming most are doing a sweep of the tower to complete the Rite of Annulment), Orsino boss battle, Meredith Boss Battle. You then leave Kirkwall, hoorah.

Side with the Templars: Same thing, up until the Gallows. As you reach the Gallows, some mages come out and ask for their lives to be spared. You have the choice not only to spare them, but also any other Mage in the tower who surrenders. You can even get Cullen to back you up. This means NO sweep of the tower, no more mages beyond the ones you have to fight anyway get murdered. You fight Orsino, then Meredith.

The game makes it sound like if you choose the Templars that you are GOING to commit mass murder, but once you reach the gallows, you can stand up for the mages and bring some semblance of order to Meredith's crazy, which is the entire point of siding with the Templars to begin with. It's about restoring order. You don't get that if you side with the mages.

Oh yeah, and they make you Viscount.

Personally, I find the Templar option to be the more humane one.



Not really. Those mages who surrender will end up dead or tranquilled anyway, since an annulment is designed to wipe every mage in the Circle out. And since the mages you kill are fighting for their lives...yeah, it is a sweep. That's what an annulment is. A total annihilation of a Circle, so that a new one with new mages who are deemed "acceptable" can move in.

So its not really humane at all, especially when the Circle is getting annuled because of the crimes of another, not related to them.

#1086
Catriana

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Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Catriana wrote...

Wait, I don't get it. Have these people who hate on the Templar play throughs actually done them? Because here's how I see it:

Side with the Mages: You fight and kill templars and mages(the ones that turn on you) and then get to the top of the tower. Meredith and the Templars reach you (I'm assuming most are doing a sweep of the tower to complete the Rite of Annulment), Orsino boss battle, Meredith Boss Battle. You then leave Kirkwall, hoorah.

Side with the Templars: Same thing, up until the Gallows. As you reach the Gallows, some mages come out and ask for their lives to be spared. You have the choice not only to spare them, but also any other Mage in the tower who surrenders. You can even get Cullen to back you up. This means NO sweep of the tower, no more mages beyond the ones you have to fight anyway get murdered. You fight Orsino, then Meredith.

The game makes it sound like if you choose the Templars that you are GOING to commit mass murder, but once you reach the gallows, you can stand up for the mages and bring some semblance of order to Meredith's crazy, which is the entire point of siding with the Templars to begin with. It's about restoring order. You don't get that if you side with the mages.

Oh yeah, and they make you Viscount.

Personally, I find the Templar option to be the more humane one.



Not really. Those mages who surrender will end up dead or tranquilled anyway, since an annulment is designed to wipe every mage in the Circle out. And since the mages you kill are fighting for their lives...yeah, it is a sweep. That's what an annulment is. A total annihilation of a Circle, so that a new one with new mages who are deemed "acceptable" can move in.

So its not really humane at all, especially when the Circle is getting annuled because of the crimes of another, not related to them.


Okay, where do you get that conclusion from? Meredith calls for the Rite of Anullment, but what you basically do, when you reach the Gallows, is flip her the bird and say "We're doing this my way." and Cullen backs Hawke up.

In short, Meredith's Rite of Annulment gets overrulled by the Champion. It doesn't happen unless you allow Meredith to continue with her madness. She's absolutely furious with you when you do, which I doubt she'd be if she was still doing things her way.

#1087
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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Catriana wrote...

Okay, where do you get that conclusion from? Meredith calls for the Rite of Anullment, but what you basically do, when you reach the Gallows, is flip her the bird and say "We're doing this my way." and Cullen backs Hawke up.

In short, Meredith's Rite of Annulment gets overrulled by the Champion. It doesn't happen unless you allow Meredith to continue with her madness. She's absolutely furious with you when you do, which I doubt she'd be if she was still doing things her way.



David Gaider once clarified this, I'm sure someone has the link to the post. But he said that an annulment means all mages are wiped out, children included. If any happen to survive (which seems to be a rare thing) they are either made tranquil or killed. An annulment is a total elimination of all mages, old and young, adults and children, in the Circle, because it has been deemed beyond salvation. Well, unless you're Meredith.

Meredith's Right of Annulment never gets overruled. hawke can chose to spare mages that surrender, but the Annulment is still active, and those surviving mages end up dead or zombified, according to Gaider. You're still annulling the Tower, that's why you are fighting mages. Because you are there to either exteriminate or tranquil any mages you find. Meredith might get mad because you spare a few mages, but only because its a waste of time, they will be dealt with anyway.

#1088
Catriana

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I want links to the latter portion of your argument, because it doesn't make sense. The argument made is fairly clear-cut in the game. Cullen remarks about the Rite of Annulment almost done in Origins, and he explains the situation there was much more dire and did not end with unnecessary bloodshed. He wants to spare any mages who surrender.

Meredith insists the Rite must be carried out after Hawke wants to spare the mages.

She insists that if any are spared, they could be blood mages. She asks Cullen if he's willing to take responsibility. He expresses he feels that is what being a Templar is all about. Meredith says that she's the Knight Commander, and they will do as she says.

Cullen then tells the templars to "Listen to the Champion", who wants to spare the mages who surrender. They listen to Cullen. In short, the mages are not killed. They're not going to be killed. They're not going to be made tranquil(otherwise, there would be no concern in them becoming blood mages), they're going to be saved if you decide you want to save them instead.

There is no tower sweep unless you specifically call for it. That's the point, it's like a redeeming choice for those who really don't want to kill all the mages but don't want to do the mage playthrough. I've played the Templar side more than enough times to know this. If you can tell me where David Gaider says the mages get killed or made Tranquil REGARDLESS of your choice to spare them, I'll retract my statement. Until then, I'm going off my playthrough, where Cullen and the other templars follow your lead, not Meredith's, and spare any mages who surrender.

#1089
megski

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Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...


David Gaider once clarified this, I'm sure someone has the link to the post. But he said that an annulment means all mages are wiped out, children included. If any happen to survive (which seems to be a rare thing) they are either made tranquil or killed. An annulment is a total elimination of all mages, old and young, adults and children, in the Circle, because it has been deemed beyond salvation. Well, unless you're Meredith.

Meredith's Right of Annulment never gets overruled. hawke can chose to spare mages that surrender, but the Annulment is still active, and those surviving mages end up dead or zombified, according to Gaider. You're still annulling the Tower, that's why you are fighting mages. Because you are there to either exteriminate or tranquil any mages you find. Meredith might get mad because you spare a few mages, but only because its a waste of time, they will be dealt with anyway.


Seriously?  That is such b.s.!  Basically when you side with the templars, you kill like maybe 10 people labeled as 'circle mage' and everyone else is labeled 'blood mage' when you're fighting.  You mostly fight demons too!  What a bunch of crap that the annulment is still active.  You would think that once Mereidith goes crazy that it is obviously, her being crazy lol, and as the new vicount you could decide 'if the people want blood.'  

That really bothers me too, that really should have been addressed in the game instead of a follow up detail because as templar side Hawke, you do restore order and have the choice to spare people.   I am disappointed about that.  

#1090
Ryzaki

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Really though the devs didn't give me much reason to give a damn about either the templars or the mages.

At the end of the game my Hawke was watching a bunch of crazies kill each other will the sane people facepalmed on the sidelines.

#1091
Catriana

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Ryzaki wrote...

Really though the devs didn't give me much reason to give a damn about either the templars or the mages.

At the end of the game my Hawke was watching a bunch of crazies kill each other will the sane people facepalmed on the sidelines.



LOL, I think the game was set up so that it doesn't matter if you side with the Templars or the Mages. It's all the same, and you still fight the same people. It's mostly the implications that change depending.

I don't really care about either side (My Rogue Hawke is like "LOL whatever just give me money or GTFO, The Blooming Rose's premium service is expensive, yo"), it just seems strange to see folks going "OMG if you side with the Templars, you're endorsing genocide!" with the ranting and the raving. Makes me wonder if they've even done the Templar playthrough or if they're just making assumptions.

#1092
megski

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Catriana wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Really though the devs didn't give me much reason to give a damn about either the templars or the mages.

At the end of the game my Hawke was watching a bunch of crazies kill each other will the sane people facepalmed on the sidelines.



LOL, I think the game was set up so that it doesn't matter if you side with the Templars or the Mages. It's all the same, and you still fight the same people. It's mostly the implications that change depending.

I don't really care about either side (My Rogue Hawke is like "LOL whatever just give me money or GTFO, The Blooming Rose's premium service is expensive, yo"), it just seems strange to see folks going "OMG if you side with the Templars, you're endorsing genocide!" with the ranting and the raving. Makes me wonder if they've even done the Templar playthrough or if they're just making assumptions.



I was disappointed by the lack of evidence the proved meredith was crazy.  I didn't expect her to be kind and cuddly like a bunny, I know that she saved the city at one point along with another templar when she was younger.  My impression of meredith in the beginning was that she was tough and did things by the book.  Even when the stuff happens with thrask and grace in act 3, you can come and talk to cullen and ask about them (the conspirators) and he says something along the lines of 'didn't you see them when you came in?'  So I went running around the gallows, looking for hanging bodies or heads on pikes.  Nothing.  Alain is even alive if you ask he be shown mercy.  So why not show her brutality or something?  All you really have to go on is that she likes to talk to herself in her office.  

#1093
Ryzaki

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Catriana wrote...
LOL, I think the game was set up so that it doesn't matter if you side with the Templars or the Mages. It's all the same, and you still fight the same people. It's mostly the implications that change depending.

I don't really care about either side (My Rogue Hawke is like "LOL whatever just give me money or GTFO, The Blooming Rose's premium service is expensive, yo"), it just seems strange to see folks going "OMG if you side with the Templars, you're endorsing genocide!" with the ranting and the raving. Makes me wonder if they've even done the Templar playthrough or if they're just making assumptions.



There's something wrong when the choice between slaughtering a group of people or letting a bunch of psychos loose makes me bored.

#1094
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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Catriana wrote...

I want links to the latter portion of your argument, because it doesn't make sense. The argument made is fairly clear-cut in the game. Cullen remarks about the Rite of Annulment almost done in Origins, and he explains the situation there was much more dire and did not end with unnecessary bloodshed. He wants to spare any mages who surrender.

Meredith insists the Rite must be carried out after Hawke wants to spare the mages.

She insists that if any are spared, they could be blood mages. She asks Cullen if he's willing to take responsibility. He expresses he feels that is what being a Templar is all about. Meredith says that she's the Knight Commander, and they will do as she says.

Cullen then tells the templars to "Listen to the Champion", who wants to spare the mages who surrender. They listen to Cullen. In short, the mages are not killed. They're not going to be killed. They're not going to be made tranquil(otherwise, there would be no concern in them becoming blood mages), they're going to be saved if you decide you want to save them instead.

There is no tower sweep unless you specifically call for it. That's the point, it's like a redeeming choice for those who really don't want to kill all the mages but don't want to do the mage playthrough. I've played the Templar side more than enough times to know this. If you can tell me where David Gaider says the mages get killed or made Tranquil REGARDLESS of your choice to spare them, I'll retract my statement. Until then, I'm going off my playthrough, where Cullen and the other templars follow your lead, not Meredith's, and spare any mages who surrender.



Ahhh, where's Ian Polaris when you need him? He's always got that link handy. I'll find it and then post it.

But as far as Cullen is concerned, I doubt he'd going to withold the tranquil brand, since throughout the game, he has made a couple comments that show he seems to think Tranquility is a good thing, and doesn't understand why mages dislike it so much. In Act 2, when you discuss Alrik's paper proposing the "tranquil solution" on all mages, he doesn't find it really horrifying. In fact, though he doesn't actively support it, he says it has merits. In Act 3, right before all hell breaks loose, he says that tranquility would have been a kinder fate than what the templars were going to do to them, refering to the annulment that Meredith kept trying to invoke, and was likely to end up pulling regardless of what Elthina or the Divine thought. Since she was completely nutso.

So while Cullen might oppose meredith's excesses, he is far from being sympathetic to mages, given his apprant fascination with making mages tranquil throughout the game. And while Cullen voices his protests, he never once attempts to stop or revoke the annulment. And he didn't seem to care much if Hawke decides to kill the Mages (including possibly allowing meredith to skewer hawke's own sister, if they so permit). Cullen only steps in when meredith tries to kill Hawke (whether they sided with or against the templars), for some reason I can't fathom. He doesn't step in beforehand and try to relieve Meredith of command when she invoked the Right in the first place. So while he didn't fully support it, he didn't oppose it enough that prevented him from taking part in it. And it was only after the annulment was done (or prevented, for the most part) and Meredith decides to kill Hawke, that he steps in.

So somehow, I doubt the mages that you spare are going to end up as anything but talking vegetables. Cullen has never struck me as one for moderation much.

#1095
Catriana

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Both Meredith and Orsino are highly hypocritical, but so is like 90% of all memorable characters in the game (Anders especially). Meredith complains about how evil mages can be, and is very diligent on enforcing what she believes to be justice on them, but does little to nothing concerning templars like Alrik who were turning mages tranquil to molest/rape/abuse them.

Meredith's brutality is in her lack of action concerning the templars abuses over the mages. Then, when the mages stand up or rebel, she cracks down on them as if they're the sole problem. The idol is what drives her to unreasonable depths, but if you look at her codex and pay attention to the rumors and things said about her, she was always overly controlling and somewhat power-hungry.

#1096
Ryzaki

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Before you even run to the link it doesn't say anything about Kirkwall. Just a normal RoA.

Kirkwall's RoA was anything but normal.

And there would be no time to tranquilize the mages before Meredith kicked the bucket and I'm pretty sure Cullen would've called it off the second he had command.

And yeah Bethany as the below poster pointed out. She is spared like the other mages and if she was going to be made tranquil it would've been mentioned.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 septembre 2011 - 02:57 .


#1097
Tatinger

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Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Catriana wrote...

Okay, where do you get that conclusion from? Meredith calls for the Rite of Anullment, but what you basically do, when you reach the Gallows, is flip her the bird and say "We're doing this my way." and Cullen backs Hawke up.

In short, Meredith's Rite of Annulment gets overrulled by the Champion. It doesn't happen unless you allow Meredith to continue with her madness. She's absolutely furious with you when you do, which I doubt she'd be if she was still doing things her way.



David Gaider once clarified this, I'm sure someone has the link to the post. But he said that an annulment means all mages are wiped out, children included. If any happen to survive (which seems to be a rare thing) they are either made tranquil or killed. An annulment is a total elimination of all mages, old and young, adults and children, in the Circle, because it has been deemed beyond salvation. Well, unless you're Meredith.

Meredith's Right of Annulment never gets overruled. hawke can chose to spare mages that surrender, but the Annulment is still active, and those surviving mages end up dead or zombified, according to Gaider. You're still annulling the Tower, that's why you are fighting mages. Because you are there to either exteriminate or tranquil any mages you find. Meredith might get mad because you spare a few mages, but only because its a waste of time, they will be dealt with anyway.


If this were true, how is it Bethany is not made tranquil in Legacy?  She seems happy enough to me so Hawke's subsequent rule as viscount must've tempered the issue somewhat -- in fact, done away with as far as I can tell, as everything seems to be going okay in Kirkwall at the start of the DLC.  If The Annulment was carried out, how are Bethany and Merrill still breathing?  


Xilizhra wrote...

No, not at all. I sided with The Templars, in the aptly named Final Straw episode, because Anders forced my hand to do so. I could no longer ignore his terrorist actions, the blood mages running amok in the city, the death of my mother at the hands of necromancer, the dangers of even seemingly sweet, innocent, mages falling off the wagon (re: Merrill and her demon/mirror thing) etc., etc..

And so, you became worse than all of them combined. Good job.


LOL. Thus spoke the person harbouring the terrorist and mass murderer.  Hey, whatever makes you sleep easier at night...

Xilizhra wrote...

Uh, did you miss the part where Anders killed an old lady and made you an accomplice to that murder?

You say that like Elthina is innocent or something, or being old and female contributes to innocence. Not that I believe anyone deserves death, but Elthina is one of those people whose death I'm not overly concerned about; in fact, I was only really upset with Anders for starting those fires. If simply killing Elthina would have helped the situation, I'd have done it myself.


Uh, how is she not innocent?  The fact that you're not overly concerned about her death means that you're convienently fitting the facts to conform to your own worldview (you...you monster!).   It's nice when we can brush such things like the death of an innocent old woman under the carpet, no?  Or the fact that, as Champion of Kirkwall, you have knowledge that if you don't act against the mages you'll have both The Chantry and Starkhaven annhilating the people of the city that you've sworn to protect?

*Tsk* For shame, Xilizhra.  For shame...:)

Modifié par Tatinger, 12 septembre 2011 - 03:18 .


#1098
Xilizhra

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I don't really care about either side (My Rogue Hawke is like "LOL whatever just give me money or GTFO, The Blooming Rose's premium service is expensive, yo"), it just seems strange to see folks going "OMG if you side with the Templars, you're endorsing genocide!" with the ranting and the raving. Makes me wonder if they've even done the Templar playthrough or if they're just making assumptions.

I've seen it. Sparing three people doesn't stop you from being a mass murderer.

Seriously? That is such b.s.! Basically when you side with the templars, you kill like maybe 10 people labeled as 'circle mage' and everyone else is labeled 'blood mage' when you're fighting. You mostly fight demons too! What a bunch of crap that the annulment is still active. You would think that once Mereidith goes crazy that it is obviously, her being crazy lol, and as the new vicount you could decide 'if the people want blood.'

Are you surprised? There's no redeeming value to be had for the templar decision, and no respect for a Hawke who makes that decision.

#1099
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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Ryzaki wrote...

Before you even run to the link it doesn't say anything about Kirkwall. Just a normal RoA.

Kirkwall's RoA was anything but normal.

And there would be no time to tranquilize the mages before Meredith kicked the bucket and I'm pretty sure Cullen would've called it off the second he had command.



I doubt he would, to be honest. By the time Meredith calls you outside and you end up fighting her, the Annulment is completed. Cullen, who as I pointed out, thinks tranquility is actually a good thing for mages, would probably still end up tranquiling them, i think.

And yeah, Kirkwall's Right of Annulment was not normal at all. But Cullen isn't that mage happy that he was totally opposed to it, just had doubts about its reasons and necessity. He'd probably tranquil the surviving mages believing he was doing them a great kindness or favor, not out of malicous punishment. And since he doesn't even think mages are people, but weapons, in Act 1, and I've seen little evidence this view has drastically changed, It is unlikely that the surviving mages are going to fare much better.

As I said, he never once tried to step in, mutiny, or relieve Meredith of Command until after the annulment was completed, only when she tries to kill Hawke. Which makes little sense, but even less sense when Hawke sides with the mages and sets them loose to run amok. So Cullen doesn't seem opposed enough to me, to likely call the annulment off later (especially if, by then, the annulment has been technically completed.)

#1100
eye basher

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The only thing that can top killing that waste of air Anders is watching the explosion on virmire knowing i left Alenko down there.