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Did anyone else kill Anders?


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#1251
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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MichaelFinnegan wrote...

I'll agree with that. Their monopoly on lyrium seems like a means to an end - as you said to keep both mages and templars in line. The Chantry's primary motive, as that of any organized religion, is to spread itself. And it has ridden on the waves of the aftermath of the events of the ancient Tevinter Imperium. But these waves have dampened in intensity over time.



Yes, which is another problem with the Chantry, they are too stuck in the past, and do not adapt and evolve with the times. This is a problem that many religions have and continue to have, so the Chantry is not unique here.


It is not just the inertia of the inaction of status quo, I suppose. As you hinted above, it's also that if mages became less dangerous, the Chantry'd lose credibility in their action to confine mages to the Circles and thus also to have their templar custodians. If I understand it correctly, isn't the templar order, including the Circle mages, a mighty military force in itself - say, to declare Exalted Marches? Keeping mages that way has other benefits.



I have actually entertained this theory, and it does seem likely, even at a subconcious level. If mages themselves could better master and reduce the danger that having magic poses signifgantly, then many of the regulations and measures the Chantry imposes might not seem so necessary.


Yes, I think we've debated one such in the past. And although I considered it an improbable idea there, I didn't think it was an impossible one. Certainly, if things went really dire one has to have options.



the isolationist option is only one. I've considered many changes and reforms to systems within existing Thedas, as more than likely, most mages will want to stay.

Although I suppose one could find good-natured and progressives among the Chantry folk, I think whoever they are, are clearly in the minority. So, overall, I'd have to agree with you again.



As the Chantry faces crisis and turmoil, the Chantry progressives and potential heretics will start to become more vocal and important, because opposition will be weaker.


I could debate this point, though. No matter how powerful some individuals might be, it'd still not work in the longer run to "contain" them, and regard them as threat always. At some point something has to give. And I for one think that it'd be beneficial in the long run to let things work out as they might, outside of captivity, in the wild, so to say; to allow people to decide for themselves. I'm sure it'd not work out in every case, but it is the only thing I feel can work without jumping into some catastrophe in the future.



I'm not talking about the permanent and total containment of the Chantry. I'm talking about adaptable, sustainable, and limited containment, always aimed at further improving the safety and survivability of the mages themselves, and ways to productively and effectively integrate them into society better.

Yes, but in my own perspective desiring power, either for doing good or evil is never a good thing. Because the thing - power - itself corrupts.



Even if that is so, corruption is not necessarily always a bad thing. In fact, I find certain amounts desirable in any system. I worry more about idealistically driven or purely honor driven leaders and systems than I do about a few shady individuals with a bit of power. Not too much corruption, just enough of a touch to keep the system young and vibrant.

Purity corrupts more than power, I think. :devil:


Yes, the idol could have been merely the catalyst, in some sense. But I still wonder, even when Meredith was so totally gone to madness at the end - something within her still seems to want to fight it. I know it isn't much of a case for Meredith, but it is something, even if merely 0.001%.



What, maybe it was a bit of whatever was left of meredith's rationality? Possible. But by that time, the deeds had been done. Meredith by then had become a potential source of compost for Hawke's planned opium poppy garden. Regrets or brief rants of sanity would not deter me in this task. :police:

#1252
Monica21

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

phaonica wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

With people you have never met, let alone seen? Hardly.


Okay, you're clearly trolling.

I am? :blink:

Then by all means, show me where Whatshername ever met Feynriel, or even saw him, since she is now so madly in love with him. What she has, is no natural love.

I'm really confused how this became Feynriel's fault and not a girl's infatuation.... :blink:

#1253
EmperorSahlertz

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Because Feynriel and the girl has never met. She has never seen him. A girl does not fall in love with a random stranger that she has never even seen before.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 13 septembre 2011 - 10:07 .


#1254
TEWR

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Because Feynriel and the girl has never met. She has never seen him. A girl does not fall in love with a random stranger that she has never even seen before.



some of the women I've never met before once in my life would beg to differ.

#1255
Monica21

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Because Feynriel and the girl has never met. She has never seen him. A girl does not fall in love with a random stranger that she has never even seen before.

Why do you believe she's in love? Just because she thinks she's in love doesn't mean she is. It's an obvious case of infatuation and being star struck. Trust me. I used to read Tiger Beat.

#1256
Xilizhra

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Yes, because that's how military orders work. You are trained from the moment you arrive at Basic to follow your superior's instructions with no question and no hesitation. Find someone who's served in the military and ask if he's ever followed an order he disagreed with or was uncomfortable with. If he says no then he's either lying or never served in combat. The fact that Cullen even voices his disapproval is kind of astonishing to me.

It has been legally determined that "just following orders" is a lame excuse.

#1257
EmperorSahlertz

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Because Feynriel and the girl has never met. She has never seen him. A girl does not fall in love with a random stranger that she has never even seen before.



some of the women I've never met before once in my life would beg to differ.

I see what you did there.


Monica21 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Because Feynriel and the girl has never met. She has never seen him. A girl does not fall in love with a random stranger that she has never even seen before.

Why do you believe she's in love? Just because she thinks she's in love doesn't mean she is. It's an obvious case of infatuation and being star struck. Trust me. I used to read Tiger Beat.

Yeah... She wouldn't call him "My love" if she was just happy that he rescued her.

#1258
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Because Feynriel and the girl has never met. She has never seen him. A girl does not fall in love with a random stranger that she has never even seen before.



You really need to get out more.:blink:

#1259
phaonica

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Monica21 wrote...
I'm really confused how this became Feynriel's fault and not a girl's infatuation.... :blink:


Because he's deliberately missing the point. I call troll.

#1260
Monica21

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Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, because that's how military orders work. You are trained from the moment you arrive at Basic to follow your superior's instructions with no question and no hesitation. Find someone who's served in the military and ask if he's ever followed an order he disagreed with or was uncomfortable with. If he says no then he's either lying or never served in combat. The fact that Cullen even voices his disapproval is kind of astonishing to me.

It has been legally determined that "just following orders" is a lame excuse.

You really need to find examples that don't have something to do with Nuremburg, otherwise my point stands.

Modifié par Monica21, 13 septembre 2011 - 10:17 .


#1261
Xilizhra

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Monica21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, because that's how military orders work. You are trained from the moment you arrive at Basic to follow your superior's instructions with no question and no hesitation. Find someone who's served in the military and ask if he's ever followed an order he disagreed with or was uncomfortable with. If he says no then he's either lying or never served in combat. The fact that Cullen even voices his disapproval is kind of astonishing to me.

It has been legally determined that "just following orders" is a lame excuse.

You really need to find examples that don't have something to do with Nuremburg, otherwise my point stands.

Your point is a sham. What you should be asking is whether someone who's served in the military has ever disobeyed an order they were uncomfortable with, not whether they've never obeyed one.

#1262
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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phaonica wrote...

Well, if a mage thinks so highly of themselves that they're hating on the Circle mages, they probably would think that they're stronger than Meredith, too. And Meredith's given them a free pass so far, so why not? They might be wrong, but I could see the logic that led them to that conclusion.



Ok, then add delusional meglomaniac to the list of possible mage Hawkes who I can see would side with Meredith, lol.

#1263
TEWR

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I see what you did there.


See what? Seriously, there have been a few women whom I don't know that have fallen in "love" with me. They just saw me and fell in love. We had never met prior to that.

It's the same thing with Feynriel. They may not have met prior to Who Needs Rescuing (it's unknown really), and the woman may be the same type of woman that I've had experiences with.

Their first meeting reveals that she's a bat**** crazy stalker.

#1264
EmperorSahlertz

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Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Because Feynriel and the girl has never met. She has never seen him. A girl does not fall in love with a random stranger that she has never even seen before.



You really need to get out more.:blink:

I take it you daily fall in love with people you have never even SEEN (I cannot emphasize enough the importance of the word SEEN). A teenage girl falling in love with some random movie star, or some such, because of cosntantly being exposed to their image is understandable. A woman falling in love with a compeltely stranger that she has never SEEN, is not normal, it is not natural... and it certainly isn't healthy....

#1265
phaonica

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Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Well, if a mage thinks so highly of themselves that they're hating on the Circle mages, they probably would think that they're stronger than Meredith, too. And Meredith's given them a free pass so far, so why not? They might be wrong, but I could see the logic that led them to that conclusion.



Ok, then add delusional meglomaniac to the list of possible mage Hawkes who I can see would side with Meredith, lol.


Will do.

#1266
EmperorSahlertz

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I see what you did there.


See what? Seriously, there have been a few women whom I don't know that have fallen in "love" with me. They just saw me and fell in love. We had never met prior to that.

It's the same thing with Feynriel. They may not have met prior to Who Needs Rescuing (it's unknown really), and the woman may be the same type of woman that I've had experiences with.

Their first meeting reveals that she's a bat**** crazy stalker.

Right... And when it turns out in DA3 that Feynriel is as rotten as they come, it is just abd writing? While a bad**** crazy stalker randomly being kidnapped and rescued is perfect writing, becasue that way, nothing bad ever came of helping the single most powerful being on the planet. Please... You know that BioWare wants Thedas to be a dark world. Letting Feynriel live is not gonna turn out for the better. Mark my words. But let it rest, I can't be bothered about trying to convince people about it anymore...

#1267
phaonica

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I take it you daily fall in love with people you have never even SEEN (I cannot emphasize enough the importance of the word SEEN).


So you think that people never had infatuations with authors, poets and storytellers they could only hear over the radio, a prince/princess whom they had never seen or met? I think celebrity worship outdates the television.

#1268
Xilizhra

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But let it rest, I can't be bothered about trying to convince people about it anymore...

I think these would be good words to take to heart on anything about mages.

#1269
Melca36

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I see what you did there.


See what? Seriously, there have been a few women whom I don't know that have fallen in "love" with me. They just saw me and fell in love. We had never met prior to that.

It's the same thing with Feynriel. They may not have met prior to Who Needs Rescuing (it's unknown really), and the woman may be the same type of woman that I've had experiences with.

Their first meeting reveals that she's a bat**** crazy stalker.

Right... And when it turns out in DA3 that Feynriel is as rotten as they come, it is just abd writing? While a bad**** crazy stalker randomly being kidnapped and rescued is perfect writing, becasue that way, nothing bad ever came of helping the single most powerful being on the planet. Please... You know that BioWare wants Thedas to be a dark world. Letting Feynriel live is not gonna turn out for the better. Mark my words. But let it rest, I can't be bothered about trying to convince people about it anymore...



Actually it will be MORE interesting to see some of the lies of The Chantry exposed and people questioning their faith.  ;)

#1270
TEWR

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Because Feynriel and the girl has never met. She has never seen him. A girl does not fall in love with a random stranger that she has never even seen before.



You really need to get out more.:blink:

I take it you daily fall in love with people you have never even SEEN (I cannot emphasize enough the importance of the word SEEN). A teenage girl falling in love with some random movie star, or some such, because of cosntantly being exposed to their image is understandable. A woman falling in love with a compeltely stranger that she has never SEEN, is not normal, it is not natural... and it certainly isn't healthy....


and yet it happens in our world all the time.

The fact remains that Feynriel and Orlanna did see each other. They saw their spiritual forms in the Fade. That they didn't see each other physically doesn't mean they didn't see each other.

#1271
EmperorSahlertz

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phaonica wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I take it you daily fall in love with people you have never even SEEN (I cannot emphasize enough the importance of the word SEEN).


So you think that people never had infatuations with authors, poets and storytellers they could only hear over the radio, a prince/princess whom they had never seen or met? I think celebrity worship outdates the television.

With the author? Not so much. Unless it was over several novel (I mean, if the reader had read several of their novels), which counts as continued exposure to the "celebrity". Otherwise people will ahve fallen in love with characters in books. To have a single exposure in your entire life, which lasts for a full 3 minutes, and then fall in love with the person, is not natural. Simple as that.

#1272
rak72

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Xilizhra wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, because that's how military orders work. You are trained from the moment you arrive at Basic to follow your superior's instructions with no question and no hesitation. Find someone who's served in the military and ask if he's ever followed an order he disagreed with or was uncomfortable with. If he says no then he's either lying or never served in combat. The fact that Cullen even voices his disapproval is kind of astonishing to me.

It has been legally determined that "just following orders" is a lame excuse.

You really need to find examples that don't have something to do with Nuremburg, otherwise my point stands.

Your point is a sham. What you should be asking is whether someone who's served in the military has ever disobeyed an order they were uncomfortable with, not whether they've never obeyed one.


If they did, they were court marshalled.    A military needs a comand structure to function properly.  Selectivly obeying orders wii lead to the deaths of your entire unit.  You can keep living in your Utopian fantasies because people with more sense are out there protecting your freedom.

#1273
EmperorSahlertz

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Because Feynriel and the girl has never met. She has never seen him. A girl does not fall in love with a random stranger that she has never even seen before.



You really need to get out more.:blink:

I take it you daily fall in love with people you have never even SEEN (I cannot emphasize enough the importance of the word SEEN). A teenage girl falling in love with some random movie star, or some such, because of cosntantly being exposed to their image is understandable. A woman falling in love with a compeltely stranger that she has never SEEN, is not normal, it is not natural... and it certainly isn't healthy....


and yet it happens in our world all the time.

The fact remains that Feynriel and Orlanna did see each other. They saw their spiritual forms in the Fade. That they didn't see each other physically doesn't mean they didn't see each other.

For three* minutes...You do not fall in love in three minutes.

*and since I know some of you are going to be completely literal... Yes, the three minutes are speculation, but she was only fainted, and only had a short conversation with him, so her exposure will not have been long.

#1274
phaonica

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

With the author? Not so much. Unless it was over several novel (I mean, if the reader had read several of their novels), which counts as continued exposure to the "celebrity". Otherwise people will ahve fallen in love with characters in books. To have a single exposure in your entire life, which lasts for a full 3 minutes, and then fall in love with the person, is not natural. Simple as that.


Fine, let's argue that it's madness. Clinical madness doesn't require blood magic either.

Modifié par phaonica, 13 septembre 2011 - 10:31 .


#1275
TEWR

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I see what you did there.


See what? Seriously, there have been a few women whom I don't know that have fallen in "love" with me. They just saw me and fell in love. We had never met prior to that.

It's the same thing with Feynriel. They may not have met prior to Who Needs Rescuing (it's unknown really), and the woman may be the same type of woman that I've had experiences with.

Their first meeting reveals that she's a bat**** crazy stalker.

Right... And when it turns out in DA3 that Feynriel is as rotten as they come, it is just abd writing? While a bad**** crazy stalker randomly being kidnapped and rescued is perfect writing, becasue that way, nothing bad ever came of helping the single most powerful being on the planet. Please... You know that BioWare wants Thedas to be a dark world. Letting Feynriel live is not gonna turn out for the better. Mark my words. But let it rest, I can't be bothered about trying to convince people about it anymore...


He actually isn't the most powerful being on the planet since Somniari exist in Tevinter and they know how to train the Somniari Posted Image

He's a powerful being, but not the most powerful.

And there's nothing wrong with them making at least one thing DAII related not be a heaping of depression in a sorry attempt to make the game "mature".

Hell his letter from Tevinter says that he understands why the Templars are so vigilant against mages and specifically blood magic.