2340 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

If they did, they were court marshalled. A military needs a comand structure to function properly. Selectivly obeying orders wii lead to the deaths of your entire unit. You can keep living in your Utopian fantasies because people with more sense are out there protecting your freedom.

If the choice is between court martial or war crime, I would hope that they pick the latter.

[EmperorSahlertz]

phaonica wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

With the author? Not so much. Unless it was over several novel (I mean, if the reader had read several of their novels), which counts as continued exposure to the "celebrity". Otherwise people will ahve fallen in love with characters in books. To have a single exposure in your entire life, which lasts for a full 3 minutes, and then fall in love with the person, is not natural. Simple as that.

Fine, let's argue that it's madness. Clinical madness doesn't require blood magic either.

True. Then it would just be ****** poor writing. And even worse, undeveloped ****** poor writing, since her madness is never expanded upon, and left to the observe to conclude on their own, with tools we are never given.

On the other hand let us say it is blood magic. Blood magic which is well established within the lore, and known to be widely used in Tevinter where Feynriel is currently an apprentice. That would be okay writing, since it would leave it to the observer to conclude, but at least with tools given to him by the setting.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 13 septembre 2011 - 10:36 .

[Monica21]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
For three* minutes...You do not fall in love in three minutes.

*and since I know some of you are going to be completely literal... Yes, the three minutes are speculation, but she was only fainted, and only had a short conversation with him, so her exposure will not have been long.

Please do me a favor and look up "infatuation" and "love." You're right. She's not in love. She believes that she's in love but that's because she's stupid. It isn't because Feynriel made her fall in love with him.

[Wulfram]

Falling in love with the Knight in Shining Armour who rescues you is pretty a normal thing, in fiction at least.

And we don't know how much interaction her and Feynriel had in her dreams. They might have had a good chinwag, discovered that they both like cats and long walks on the beach.

[berelinde]

Xilizhra wrote...

If they did, they were court marshalled. A military needs a comand structure to function properly. Selectivly obeying orders wii lead to the deaths of your entire unit. You can keep living in your Utopian fantasies because people with more sense are out there protecting your freedom.

If the choice is between court martial or war crime, I would hope that they pick the latter.

+1000 internets to Xilizhra, except that I think you meant that you would rather see them face a court marshall than commit atrocities (war crimes).

Modifié par berelinde, 13 septembre 2011 - 10:37 .

[TEWR]

rak72 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, because that's how military orders work. You are trained from the moment you arrive at Basic to follow your superior's instructions with no question and no hesitation. Find someone who's served in the military and ask if he's ever followed an order he disagreed with or was uncomfortable with. If he says no then he's either lying or never served in combat. The fact that Cullen even voices his disapproval is kind of astonishing to me.

It has been legally determined that "just following orders" is a lame excuse.

You really need to find examples that don't have something to do with Nuremburg, otherwise my point stands.

Your point is a sham. What you should be asking is whether someone who's served in the military has ever disobeyed an order they were uncomfortable with, not whether they've never obeyed one.

If they did, they were court marshalled.    A military needs a comand structure to function properly.  Selectivly obeying orders wii lead to the deaths of your entire unit.  You can keep living in your Utopian fantasies because people with more sense are out there protecting your freedom.

Danella is actually a good example of disobeying orders. She disobeyed her orders to be a soldier to protect her family. While a noble deed, it was also selfish as many people in Amaranthine had their families face danger from the Darkspawn. So she faced the courts of Amaranthine and awaited judgement.

I would've been happy if the Templar mooks had been constantly questioning Meredith, and after a while they said that the whole RoA wasn't needed and that they were through obeying her orders.

Obeying orders is fine up to a point, but a person should definitely question them if they are questionable. I don't condone war crimes and would rather face a court martial were I a soldier.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 septembre 2011 - 10:38 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I see what you did there.

See what? Seriously, there have been a few women whom I don't know that have fallen in "love" with me. They just saw me and fell in love. We had never met prior to that.

It's the same thing with Feynriel. They may not have met prior to Who Needs Rescuing (it's unknown really), and the woman may be the same type of woman that I've had experiences with.

Their first meeting reveals that she's a bat**** crazy stalker.

Right... And when it turns out in DA3 that Feynriel is as rotten as they come, it is just abd writing? While a bad**** crazy stalker randomly being kidnapped and rescued is perfect writing, becasue that way, nothing bad ever came of helping the single most powerful being on the planet. Please... You know that BioWare wants Thedas to be a dark world. Letting Feynriel live is not gonna turn out for the better. Mark my words. But let it rest, I can't be bothered about trying to convince people about it anymore...

He actually isn't the most powerful being on the planet since Somniari exist in Tevinter and they know how to train the Somniari

He's a powerful being, but not the most powerful.

And there's nothing wrong with them making at least one thing DAII related not be a heaping of depression in a sorry attempt to make the game "mature".

Hell his letter from Tevinter says that he understands why the Templars are so vigilant against mages and specifically blood magic.

There havn't been a Somniari who survived maturity for generations. Marethari says that. Tevitner have some ancient lore on them, but they do not have their own Somniari anymore.

[Monica21]

berelinde wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If they did, they were court marshalled. A military needs a comand structure to function properly. Selectivly obeying orders wii lead to the deaths of your entire unit. You can keep living in your Utopian fantasies because people with more sense are out there protecting your freedom.

If the choice is between court martial or war crime, I would hope that they pick the latter.

+1000 internets to Xilizhra, except that I think you meant that you would rather see them face a court marshall than commit atrocities (war crimes).

Which is a really stupid thing to wish. Do you know what happens to people who disobey orders, are court-martialled, and are wrong? Bad things. That's an utterly ridiculous statement based on a complete lack of understanding of how the world works.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I see what you did there.

See what? Seriously, there have been a few women whom I don't know that have fallen in "love" with me. They just saw me and fell in love. We had never met prior to that.

It's the same thing with Feynriel. They may not have met prior to Who Needs Rescuing (it's unknown really), and the woman may be the same type of woman that I've had experiences with.

Their first meeting reveals that she's a bat**** crazy stalker.

Right... And when it turns out in DA3 that Feynriel is as rotten as they come, it is just abd writing? While a bad**** crazy stalker randomly being kidnapped and rescued is perfect writing, becasue that way, nothing bad ever came of helping the single most powerful being on the planet. Please... You know that BioWare wants Thedas to be a dark world. Letting Feynriel live is not gonna turn out for the better. Mark my words. But let it rest, I can't be bothered about trying to convince people about it anymore...

He actually isn't the most powerful being on the planet since Somniari exist in Tevinter and they know how to train the Somniari

He's a powerful being, but not the most powerful.

And there's nothing wrong with them making at least one thing DAII related not be a heaping of depression in a sorry attempt to make the game "mature".

Hell his letter from Tevinter says that he understands why the Templars are so vigilant against mages and specifically blood magic.

There havn't been a Somniari who survived maturity for generations. Marethari says that. Tevitner have some ancient lore on them, but they do not have their own Somniari anymore.

Marethari doesn't know much about the Somniari, and we dont' even know if she's ever been to Tevinter. I highly doubt she ever has been. Maybe there hasn't been a living Somniari outside of Tevinter

Feynriel is studying under a Magister who is his teacher in how to handle his Dreamer powers. It makes sense that his teacher is also a Somniari.

[rak72]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, because that's how military orders work. You are trained from the moment you arrive at Basic to follow your superior's instructions with no question and no hesitation. Find someone who's served in the military and ask if he's ever followed an order he disagreed with or was uncomfortable with. If he says no then he's either lying or never served in combat. The fact that Cullen even voices his disapproval is kind of astonishing to me.

It has been legally determined that "just following orders" is a lame excuse.

You really need to find examples that don't have something to do with Nuremburg, otherwise my point stands.

Your point is a sham. What you should be asking is whether someone who's served in the military has ever disobeyed an order they were uncomfortable with, not whether they've never obeyed one.

If they did, they were court marshalled.    A military needs a comand structure to function properly.  Selectivly obeying orders wii lead to the deaths of your entire unit.  You can keep living in your Utopian fantasies because people with more sense are out there protecting your freedom.

Danella is actually a good example of disobeying orders. She disobeyed her orders to be a soldier to protect her family. While a noble deed, it was also selfish as many people in Amaranthine had their families face danger from the Darkspawn. So she faced the courts of Amaranthine and awaited judgement.

I would've been happy if the Templar mooks had been constantly questioning Meredith, and after a while they said that the whole RoA wasn't needed and that they were through obeying her orders.

Obeying orders is fine up to a point, but a person should definitely question them if they are questionable. I don't condone war crimes and would rather face a court martial were I a soldier.

That is a good example.  I always have to execute her.  If you let her live, everyone else is going to leave to help their families, leaving Amaranthien without an army to defend it.

[berelinde]

Monica21 wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If they did, they were court marshalled. A military needs a comand structure to function properly. Selectivly obeying orders wii lead to the deaths of your entire unit. You can keep living in your Utopian fantasies because people with more sense are out there protecting your freedom.

If the choice is between court martial or war crime, I would hope that they pick the latter.

+1000 internets to Xilizhra, except that I think you meant that you would rather see them face a court marshall than commit atrocities (war crimes).

Which is a really stupid thing to wish. Do you know what happens to people who disobey orders, are court-martialled, and are wrong? Bad things. That's an utterly ridiculous statement based on a complete lack of understanding of how the world works.

I do know what happens when people blindly and unquestioningly obey orders when the orders are to commit genocide. Hiding behind official sanction will not prevent the perpetrator from being tried and convicted of atrocities against humanity. It has happened before. Real world.

[rak72]

Monica21 wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If they did, they were court marshalled. A military needs a comand structure to function properly. Selectivly obeying orders wii lead to the deaths of your entire unit. You can keep living in your Utopian fantasies because people with more sense are out there protecting your freedom.

If the choice is between court martial or war crime, I would hope that they pick the latter.

+1000 internets to Xilizhra, except that I think you meant that you would rather see them face a court marshall than commit atrocities (war crimes).

Which is a really stupid thing to wish. Do you know what happens to people who disobey orders, are court-martialled, and are wrong? Bad things. That's an utterly ridiculous statement based on a complete lack of understanding of how the world works.

+1000 to Monica

Modifié par rak72, 13 septembre 2011 - 10:43 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Monica21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, because that's how military orders work. You are trained from the moment you arrive at Basic to follow your superior's instructions with no question and no hesitation. Find someone who's served in the military and ask if he's ever followed an order he disagreed with or was uncomfortable with. If he says no then he's either lying or never served in combat. The fact that Cullen even voices his disapproval is kind of astonishing to me.

It has been legally determined that "just following orders" is a lame excuse.

You really need to find examples that don't have something to do with Nuremburg, otherwise my point stands.

it depends on the system it is applied to. I was in the military, and from what i gathered during our Geneva conventions classes, generally, "following orders" would not save you from a war crimes trial. However, this is not always rigidly true, and there's alot of flexible and grey areas. For example, if a soldier feels their lives might be endangered by directly challenging or aggresively challenging the giver of the questionable order, or if they feel the safety of their fellows and success of their mission would be comprimised, then they would not be faulted for obeying the order, though they are expected to state that they do so only under duress or objection. Also, if a soldier ends up obeying and order that they do not realize is faulty, questionable, or illegal until later, they are also not at fault, so long as they report the incident as soon as possible. However, in most military units, an XO (Executive Officer) is  the second in command, and one of their duties is to relieve a commander of duty and take over if that commander has been deemed unfit for duty or critically incompetant.

As to having obeyed orders I didn't agree with, yes, though nothing serious or earth shattering, as it was not in a combat siuation, nor did it have anything to do with potential GC violations. I knew a guy who served in the first Gulf War, however, and though he wouldn't go into details and was vague, it seemed his platoon was ordered to do something that was highly questionable to put it mildly, and he seriously regretted not having reported the incident.

Somehow, i doubt anything like the geneva conventions exists anywhere in Thedas, let alone amongst the templars, so I doubt such things would apply, as the Chantry seems to have some vague definitions of what would be questionable, when it comes to the mages. And given recruitment standards for the templars, it seems more likely they have a system that just says "do what you're told, don't ask questions." Some templars might ask questions, but it is doubtful many vocalize objections.

[TEWR]

Monica21 wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If they did, they were court marshalled. A military needs a comand structure to function properly. Selectivly obeying orders wii lead to the deaths of your entire unit. You can keep living in your Utopian fantasies because people with more sense are out there protecting your freedom.

If the choice is between court martial or war crime, I would hope that they pick the latter.

+1000 internets to Xilizhra, except that I think you meant that you would rather see them face a court marshall than commit atrocities (war crimes).

Which is a really stupid thing to wish. Do you know what happens to people who disobey orders, are court-martialled, and are wrong? Bad things. That's an utterly ridiculous statement based on a complete lack of understanding of how the world works.

I could go to my grave happy that I made the morally right decision. If a court martial resulted in me facing execution, then so be it.

[phaonica]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Fine, let's argue that it's madness. Clinical madness doesn't require blood magic either.

True. Then it would just be ****** poor writing. And even worse, undeveloped ****** poor writing, since her madness is never expanded upon, and left to the observe to conclude on their own, with tools we are never given.

On the other hand let us say it is blood magic. Blood magic which is well established within the lore, and known to be widely used in Tevinter where Feynriel is currently an apprentice. That would be okay writing, since it would leave it to the observer to conclude, but at least with tools given to him by the setting.

Either way, her reaction is not in itself proof of blood magic. Obsession does not require blood magic.

[Xilizhra]

Monica21 wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If they did, they were court marshalled. A military needs a comand structure to function properly. Selectivly obeying orders wii lead to the deaths of your entire unit. You can keep living in your Utopian fantasies because people with more sense are out there protecting your freedom.

If the choice is between court martial or war crime, I would hope that they pick the latter.

+1000 internets to Xilizhra, except that I think you meant that you would rather see them face a court marshall than commit atrocities (war crimes).

Which is a really stupid thing to wish. Do you know what happens to people who disobey orders, are court-martialled, and are wrong? Bad things. That's an utterly ridiculous statement based on a complete lack of understanding of how the world works.

You do know that it's an obligation of international law to refuse all orders to commit war crimes, right?

[TEWR]

rak72 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, because that's how military orders work. You are trained from the moment you arrive at Basic to follow your superior's instructions with no question and no hesitation. Find someone who's served in the military and ask if he's ever followed an order he disagreed with or was uncomfortable with. If he says no then he's either lying or never served in combat. The fact that Cullen even voices his disapproval is kind of astonishing to me.

It has been legally determined that "just following orders" is a lame excuse.

You really need to find examples that don't have something to do with Nuremburg, otherwise my point stands.

Your point is a sham. What you should be asking is whether someone who's served in the military has ever disobeyed an order they were uncomfortable with, not whether they've never obeyed one.

If they did, they were court marshalled.    A military needs a comand structure to function properly.  Selectivly obeying orders wii lead to the deaths of your entire unit.  You can keep living in your Utopian fantasies because people with more sense are out there protecting your freedom.

Danella is actually a good example of disobeying orders. She disobeyed her orders to be a soldier to protect her family. While a noble deed, it was also selfish as many people in Amaranthine had their families face danger from the Darkspawn. So she faced the courts of Amaranthine and awaited judgement.

I would've been happy if the Templar mooks had been constantly questioning Meredith, and after a while they said that the whole RoA wasn't needed and that they were through obeying her orders.

Obeying orders is fine up to a point, but a person should definitely question them if they are questionable. I don't condone war crimes and would rather face a court martial were I a soldier.

That is a good example.  I always have to execute her.  If you let her live, everyone else is going to leave to help their families, leaving Amaranthien without an army to defend it.

Actually, if you imprison her for a year, it's the best decision. The soldiers see it as a fair punishment.

[EmperorSahlertz]

phaonica wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Fine, let's argue that it's madness. Clinical madness doesn't require blood magic either.

True. Then it would just be ****** poor writing. And even worse, undeveloped ****** poor writing, since her madness is never expanded upon, and left to the observe to conclude on their own, with tools we are never given.

On the other hand let us say it is blood magic. Blood magic which is well established within the lore, and known to be widely used in Tevinter where Feynriel is currently an apprentice. That would be okay writing, since it would leave it to the observer to conclude, but at least with tools given to him by the setting.

Either way, her reaction is not in itself proof of blood magic. Obsession does not require blood magic.

Obsession generated from what? The full three minutes of exposure she had? That makes no sense at all. Either way, her alone is not all that shows Feynriel isn't pure puppy loving good. He still mind controleld the bandits to kill eachother. While his goal was noble, his methods were questionable, and even more proof pointing towards his use of blood magic.

[Monica21]

Xilizhra wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If they did, they were court marshalled. A military needs a comand structure to function properly. Selectivly obeying orders wii lead to the deaths of your entire unit. You can keep living in your Utopian fantasies because people with more sense are out there protecting your freedom.

If the choice is between court martial or war crime, I would hope that they pick the latter.

+1000 internets to Xilizhra, except that I think you meant that you would rather see them face a court marshall than commit atrocities (war crimes).

Which is a really stupid thing to wish. Do you know what happens to people who disobey orders, are court-martialled, and are wrong? Bad things. That's an utterly ridiculous statement based on a complete lack of understanding of how the world works.

You do know that it's an obligation of international law to refuse all orders to commit war crimes, right?

You do know that Thedas has no such thing as war crimes, don't you?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I take it you daily fall in love with people you have never even SEEN (I cannot emphasize enough the importance of the word SEEN). A teenage girl falling in love with some random movie star, or some such, because of cosntantly being exposed to their image is understandable. A woman falling in love with a compeltely stranger that she has never SEEN, is not normal, it is not natural... and it certainly isn't healthy....

I didn't say normal, healthy people do it. But one doesn't need to have blood magic cast on them to be mentally unstable, or have serious issues. And why I never have fallen in love with a complete stranger, I have known some people who have convinced themselves they are madly in love with someone they briefly and casually meet once. It is hardly normal or healthy, but it does not require mind control. Just an unstable mind.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If they did, they were court marshalled. A military needs a comand structure to function properly. Selectivly obeying orders wii lead to the deaths of your entire unit. You can keep living in your Utopian fantasies because people with more sense are out there protecting your freedom.

If the choice is between court martial or war crime, I would hope that they pick the latter.

+1000 internets to Xilizhra, except that I think you meant that you would rather see them face a court marshall than commit atrocities (war crimes).

Which is a really stupid thing to wish. Do you know what happens to people who disobey orders, are court-martialled, and are wrong? Bad things. That's an utterly ridiculous statement based on a complete lack of understanding of how the world works.

You do know that it's an obligation of international law to refuse all orders to commit war crimes, right?

And you realize that the Right of Annulment is not a war crime? Wether or not you feel it should be, is irrelevant.
In a real world comparison, you would require all soldiers to follow their moral compass whenever they were given an order, instead of the actual written law. And that requirement is downright stupid in a combat situation. Especially since even the law isn't enforced, until after the fighting anyway...

[Xilizhra]

You do know that Thedas has no such thing as war crimes, don't you?

Not entirely my point. The world as a whole has acknowledged the moral necessity of disobeying such orders, and we can thus conclude that by our own standards, the templars were morally bankrupt in not doing so. Of course, the Chantry would say that genocide is fine and dandy as long as it's against theoretically rebellious mages, but **** them.

[Monica21]

Xilizhra wrote...

You do know that Thedas has no such thing as war crimes, don't you?

Not entirely my point. The world as a whole has acknowledged the moral necessity of disobeying such orders, and we can thus conclude that by our own standards, the templars were morally bankrupt in not doing so. Of course, the Chantry would say that genocide is fine and dandy as long as it's against theoretically rebellious mages, but **** them.

Your point is irrelevant because you're trying to ascribe modern-day law and morality to a medieval world that only exists in fantasy. Whether you think it is a crime does not matter, because it isn't. You can believe it immoral and RP accordingly, but you cannot ascribe a crime to something that is clearly not criminal.

[Xilizhra]

Monica21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

You do know that Thedas has no such thing as war crimes, don't you?

Not entirely my point. The world as a whole has acknowledged the moral necessity of disobeying such orders, and we can thus conclude that by our own standards, the templars were morally bankrupt in not doing so. Of course, the Chantry would say that genocide is fine and dandy as long as it's against theoretically rebellious mages, but **** them.

Your point is irrelevant because you're trying to ascribe modern-day law and morality to a medieval world that only exists in fantasy. Whether you think it is a crime does not matter, because it isn't. You can believe it immoral and RP accordingly, but you cannot ascribe a crime to something that is clearly not criminal.

No, I cannot. The fact that it isn't a crime is irrelevant, because the system is inherently unjust.

I take pride in dealing out the first of what should come to be mortal wounds to it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I take it you are some sort of arbiter of ultimate truth, since you can judge all systems to be just or unjust? You find it unjust, good for you. Thedas finds(/found) it just, it is their world, deal with it.