2340 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I take it you are some sort of arbiter of ultimate truth, since you can judge all systems to be just or unjust? You find it unjust, good for you. Thedas finds(/found) it just, it is their world, deal with it.

Like everyone else, I look at things as to how they match my personal morality.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

phaonica wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Fine, let's argue that it's madness. Clinical madness doesn't require blood magic either.

True. Then it would just be ****** poor writing. And even worse, undeveloped ****** poor writing, since her madness is never expanded upon, and left to the observe to conclude on their own, with tools we are never given.

On the other hand let us say it is blood magic. Blood magic which is well established within the lore, and known to be widely used in Tevinter where Feynriel is currently an apprentice. That would be okay writing, since it would leave it to the observer to conclude, but at least with tools given to him by the setting.

Either way, her reaction is not in itself proof of blood magic. Obsession does not require blood magic.

Obsession generated from what? The full three minutes of exposure she had? That makes no sense at all. Either way, her alone is not all that shows Feynriel isn't pure puppy loving good. He still mind controleld the bandits to kill eachother. While his goal was noble, his methods were questionable, and even more proof pointing towards his use of blood magic.

For all we know she was unconscious for hours and they talked to pass the time.

And his "methods" (if they were in fact blood magic. It could just be a Dreamer ability. I'm watching Night Terrors on youtube but it's lagging and people don't even do the investigate options) were the only ones possible. Feynriel couldn't just have them walk to Aveline and the Guard in Kirkwall, because that would require him to exert a lot of control over all of them for a great distance, including the ones that appeared afterwards. The Wounded Coast is miles away from Kirkwall, and Feynriel would no doubt become exhausted. A demon might take advantage of his exhaustion and lowered guard to possess him.

He couldn't just make them friends because that would wear off eventually. Probably as soon as he stopped controlling them. Again, it would exhaust him and quite possibly lead to possession. And again, that you would rather have rapists and bandits stay alive rather than have a mage kill them boggles the mind. Did you want Evets' Marauders to stay alive? They were bandits who raped and pillaged along the countryside.

Killing them was a public service to the community. Does it make Feynriel a vigilante? Yes, but so is Hawke.

[phaonica]

Xilizhra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I take it you are some sort of arbiter of ultimate truth, since you can judge all systems to be just or unjust? You find it unjust, good for you. Thedas finds(/found) it just, it is their world, deal with it.

Like everyone else, I look at things as to how they match my personal morality.

And demand that everyone comply.

[Xilizhra]

phaonica wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I take it you are some sort of arbiter of ultimate truth, since you can judge all systems to be just or unjust? You find it unjust, good for you. Thedas finds(/found) it just, it is their world, deal with it.

Like everyone else, I look at things as to how they match my personal morality.

And demand that everyone comply.

Insofar as it comes to the avoidance of genocide? Yes.

[Sylvianus]

Xilizhra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I take it you are some sort of arbiter of ultimate truth, since you can judge all systems to be just or unjust? You find it unjust, good for you. Thedas finds(/found) it just, it is their world, deal with it.

Like everyone else, I look at things as to how they match my personal morality.

But what's the point when this world does not know the concept of crimes against humanity ? What is the point of saying that the International Court today allows to disobey a wrong order, when in this world there is no concept of this kind. How that it can help you make value judgments ? Where is the relevance ?

So if I judge all men, heroes, etc, in the past with today's standards, were they bad ?

There is nothing to say about it, because it is inept. It does nothing but confusion and a noxious mixture of arguments and disorderly. You cling to things that mean nothing here, and nobody can deny that simply because they mean nothing.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 13 septembre 2011 - 11:24 .

[Xilizhra]

So if I judge all men, heroes, etc, in the past with today's standards, are they bad ?

By and large, yes. Not all, but many are.

[Monica21]

Xilizhra wrote...

So if I judge all men, heroes, etc, in the past with today's standards, are they bad ?

By and large, yes. Not all, but many are.

You avoided the rest of his question. Where is the relevance? Why does it matter when you choose to play a game that doesn't have the same morality and law that you do?

[Xilizhra]

Monica21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So if I judge all men, heroes, etc, in the past with today's standards, are they bad ?

By and large, yes. Not all, but many are.

You avoided the rest of his question. Where is the relevance? Why does it matter when you choose to play a game that doesn't have the same morality and law that you do?

Clearly, several people have the same morality as I do in the game, given the vocal support I get from Anders and Merrill, and the somewhat more low-key support from Isabela. And plenty of people feel the current law is unjust as well.

[Monica21]

Xilizhra wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So if I judge all men, heroes, etc, in the past with today's standards, are they bad ?

By and large, yes. Not all, but many are.

You avoided the rest of his question. Where is the relevance? Why does it matter when you choose to play a game that doesn't have the same morality and law that you do?

Clearly, several people have the same morality as I do in the game, given the vocal support I get from Anders and Merrill, and the somewhat more low-key support from Isabela. And plenty of people feel the current law is unjust as well.

That's "some of the characters agree with me" which isn't an answer. Why is your overlay of the modern-day real world over the fantasy setting of Dragon Age relevant?

[Xilizhra]

That's "some of the characters agree with me" which isn't an answer. Why is your overlay of the modern-day real world over the fantasy setting of Dragon Age relevant?

Should I talk about the philosophical sources of morality that doesn't derive from Chantry dogma, in-universe? Regrettably, I don't know any.

[berelinde]

Emperor Sahlertz wrote...

I take it you are some sort of arbiter of ultimate truth, since you can judge all systems to be just or unjust? You find it unjust, good for you. Thedas finds(/found) it just, it is their world, deal with it.

The "ultimate truth" is that Meredith had no legal authority to invoke the RoA. She did have the authority to write to the Divine to obtain the RoA. Like Greagoire did when the Fereldan Circle fell to Uldred. By acting without authority, she undermined the authority and legal procedures of her beloved Chantry which led to its collapse. No matter which side you support, the Circles are no longer under Chantry control, nor are the templars. Thedas did *not* find it just. Thedas rebelled. Deal with it.

Modifié par berelinde, 14 septembre 2011 - 12:26 .

[TJPags]

berelinde wrote...

Emperor Sahlertz wrote...

I take it you are some sort of arbiter of ultimate truth, since you can judge all systems to be just or unjust? You find it unjust, good for you. Thedas finds(/found) it just, it is their world, deal with it.

The "ultimate truth" is that Meredith had no legal authority to invoke the RoA. She did have the authority to write to the Divine to obtain the RoA. Like Greagoire did when the Fereldan Circle fell to Uldred. By acting without authority, she undermined the authority and legal procedures of her beloved Chantry which led to its collapse. No matter which side you support, the Circles are no longer under Chantry control, nor are the templars. Thedas did *not* find it just. Thedas rebelled. Deal with it.

1.  On the death of Elthinna and everyone else in the Chantry, Meredith did in fact have the legal authority to invoke the RoA.  That's been settled months ago.

2.  "Thedas" did not rebel.  The Circles rebelled.  Big difference.

[Monica21]

berelinde wrote...
The "ultimate truth" is that Meredith had no legal authority to invoke the RoA. She did have the authority to write to the Divine to obtain the RoA. Like Greagoire did when the Fereldan Circle fell to Uldred. By acting without authority, she undermined the authority and legal procedures of her beloved Chantry which led to its collapse. No matter which side you support, the Circles are no longer under Chantry control, nor are the templars. Thedas did *not* find it just. Thedas rebelled. Deal with it.

Greagoire was not waiting for the Divine, he was waiting for the Grand Cleric who was in Denerim. The Grand Cleric was also not dead. Denerim is also much closer than Orlais.

The "ultimate truth" would have had to be decided by some kind of tribunal after the fact, if there is that sort of thing in the Chantry. Meredith determined there was an immediate threat and acted.

[Monica21]

TJPags wrote...
1.  On the death of Elthinna and everyone else in the Chantry, Meredith did in fact have the legal authority to invoke the RoA.  That's been settled months ago.

I didn't know about that discussion. Can you link me or tell me what was said?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Monica21 wrote...

TJPags wrote...
1.  On the death of Elthinna and everyone else in the Chantry, Meredith did in fact have the legal authority to invoke the RoA.  That's been settled months ago.

I didn't know about that discussion. Can you link me or tell me what was said?

I remember the discussion in question, where david Gaider said on the death of the GC in an emergency situation, the Knight Commander could temporarily take over and invoke the Right on her own. The real question would not be whether or not Meredith as Knight Commander had the authority to do so, but whether the mental capacity to be in that position and make that sort of call.

[Sylvianus]

Xilizhra wrote...

So if I judge all men, heroes, etc, in the past with today's standards, are they bad ?

By and large, yes. Not all, but many are.

To be honest, I can understand that you think someone is bad because of his actions, with your personal opinions, personal feelings. But where I do not understand is that you say some arguments that can't help you.

Laws against slavery, human'rights they didn't  exist in Caesar's time. How could I say this guy was bad because of human rights and there are laws against that today ? He should have forbidden slaves or  avoid them etc etc.

From his war victories against the barbarians ( who also love killed the weak people ), he has transformed thousands of people as slaves, including women and children. So he is bad, because of human' rights today. But that was normal at the time.

And yet, Caesar was pretty good with his own slaves. Other often poorly treated their slavesHe has lived since he was born in this, his society was based on that, for him it was normal. How can I allow myself to judge him with concepts he doesn't know, and in addition concepts appeared only less than 100 years. ( and for many laws we couldn't have them without fight and blood )

We see here, that, we need our own judgments, yes, modern if you wish, but objective at least,  with a personal look at another world. That's important.

You can't say, the International Court allows to disobey a wrong order today. So the officer of dragon age ( fantasy world )that is more likely to be tortured or executed because he doesn't obey, is a bad person, who deliberately decided to commit genocide.

I'm not talking necessarily about Meredith or something else, it's just that I find this logic flawed and that launch the debate in the wrong direction, which is almost always the case in my opinion about the Templars and the Mages.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 14 septembre 2011 - 12:52 .

[berelinde]

Monica21 wrote...
The "ultimate truth" would have had to be decided by some kind of tribunal after the fact, if there is that sort of thing in the Chantry. Meredith determined there was an immediate threat and acted.

In error, as it turned out. Had she punished the guilty party (Anders) rather than pursuing her personal vendetta, Thedas would not be at war.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sylvianus wrote...

How can I allow myself to judge him with concepts he doesn't know, and in addition concepts appeared only less than 100 years. ( and for many laws we couldn't have them without fight and blood )

More importantly, such a judgement would be completely and utterly irrelevent, and his greatness would not hinge on such a futile exercize in the slightest or on some people calling him "bad".

[rak72]

berelinde wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
The "ultimate truth" would have had to be decided by some kind of tribunal after the fact, if there is that sort of thing in the Chantry. Meredith determined there was an immediate threat and acted.

In error, as it turned out. Had she punished the guilty party (Anders) rather than pursuing her personal vendetta, Thedas would not be at war.

Maybe, maybe not - we don't know that.   The Grand Cleric was still murdered & a lot of people would not be happy about that.  Maybe the Kirkwall mages would have started an uprising on their own if they heard about  the GC (which could have lead to another Uldred like incident).  We have no way of knowing what would have happened.

[TJPags]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

TJPags wrote...
1.  On the death of Elthinna and everyone else in the Chantry, Meredith did in fact have the legal authority to invoke the RoA.  That's been settled months ago.

I didn't know about that discussion. Can you link me or tell me what was said?

I remember the discussion in question, where david Gaider said on the death of the GC in an emergency situation, the Knight Commander could temporarily take over and invoke the Right on her own. The real question would not be whether or not Meredith as Knight Commander had the authority to do so, but whether the mental capacity to be in that position and make that sort of call.

As Skadi said, DG said what seemed pretty obvious to some of us - on the death of the GC, and any other Chantry member with sufficient standing to have taken the slot - the KC gains the authority of the GC, and can call for a RoA.  It's important that it's not just Elthinna's death, but the fact that anyone else who might have been able to replace her was also killed by Anders, that allowed this - if it was just the GC, he seemed to imply the next highest-ranking Chantry member would step up, at least temporarily.

And yes, Meredith - like any GC who were to authorize a RoA - would be subject to review for her actions.

[dreadpiratesnugglecakes]

No, I didn't. Only because there was no animation for using his head for a toilet after feeding the rest of his body to the mabari. Oh well.

[Monica21]

berelinde wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
The "ultimate truth" would have had to be decided by some kind of tribunal after the fact, if there is that sort of thing in the Chantry. Meredith determined there was an immediate threat and acted.

In error, as it turned out. Had she punished the guilty party (Anders) rather than pursuing her personal vendetta, Thedas would not be at war.

First, it's irrelevant whether she was in error. It was her decision to make as stated above. Second, assuming that Thedas would not be at war now is a rather large leap in logic. You simply can't know that.

[Sylvianus]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

How can I allow myself to judge him with concepts he doesn't know, and in addition concepts appeared only less than 100 years. ( and for many laws we couldn't have them without fight and blood )

More importantly, such a judgement would be completely and utterly irrelevent, and his greatness would not hinge on such a futile exercize in the slightest or on some people calling him "bad".

Totally agree.

[berelinde]

Monica21 wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
The "ultimate truth" would have had to be decided by some kind of tribunal after the fact, if there is that sort of thing in the Chantry. Meredith determined there was an immediate threat and acted.

In error, as it turned out. Had she punished the guilty party (Anders) rather than pursuing her personal vendetta, Thedas would not be at war.

First, it's irrelevant whether she was in error. It was her decision to make as stated above. Second, assuming that Thedas would not be at war now is a rather large leap in logic. You simply can't know that.

One might argue that the war that followed her decision is proof enough that her motivation for declaring the RoA did matter.

In any case, I'm bored with the discussion and should probably be doing something productive, like spending time with the sig-O. Have fun.

[DKJaigen]

Monica21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So if I judge all men, heroes, etc, in the past with today's standards, are they bad ?

By and large, yes. Not all, but many are.

You avoided the rest of his question. Where is the relevance? Why does it matter when you choose to play a game that doesn't have the same morality and law that you do?

Clearly, several people have the same morality as I do in the game, given the vocal support I get from Anders and Merrill, and the somewhat more low-key support from Isabela. And plenty of people feel the current law is unjust as well.

That's "some of the characters agree with me" which isn't an answer. Why is your overlay of the modern-day real world over the fantasy setting of Dragon Age relevant?

Because dragon age morality is similar to our own morality. If i where to apply medieval morality to this situation then both Anders and Meredith are right in their action