2340 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvianus]

Also, There is a mission where Orsino sends us investigate, on mages of the circle who plotted behind his back.

I don't remember if they use blood magic that said, but they attack us at night when we see them.

[Monica21]

dragonflight288 wrote...

First, Meredith is the aggressor. Second, Circle mages are not apostates.

Actually, if you side with the mages, Orsino outright states before Meredith shows up with reinforcements that every mage in the Circle is now considered an apostate, from the very moment Meredith declared a Right of Annulment. If they throw themselves on the templar's swords, good for them. If they resist, they're apostates. Either way, they die. Irregardless of the crime committed and who did it.

If you side with the Templars you can tell your companions that you're doing it to help preserve order. And I'd have to replay the Gallows, but I don't recall any with apostate tags within. The only ones I can are possibly the ones in the Gallows Courtyard, but he's summoning demons so I'm not opposed to killing him. I don't have Templar abilities so if he wants a fight, he can make it a fair one and just shoot some lighting at me.

And yes, let's think about the crime. In a letter to Meredith Cullen references the mage underground and the raiding parties it is sending into the Gallows to free mages. I'm not sure if you get the codex entry about the Resolutionists if you don't have The Exiled Prince, but it is mentioned that they are willing to act violently against the Chantry in their efforts to gain total mage freedom. 

Combine those two and the Chantry bombing and it sounds an awful lot like a conspiracy. Even Meredith, in her insanity, would be downright irresponsible not to suspect that there are conspirators in the Circle and wonder if Viscount's Hall is next, or a marketplace, or the Gallows. I don't know if I would determine that the Circle can't be salvaged, but things are certainly spiraling out of control very quickly.

Based on nothing more than that information, my Hawke decides that whatever is happening isn't worth becoming an outlaw. Siding with mages against the Templars and the Chantry hasn't exactly turn out well.

[Xilizhra]

Based on nothing more than that information, my Hawke decides that whatever is happening isn't worth becoming an outlaw. Siding with mages against the Templars and the Chantry hasn't exactly turn out well.

Nothing is worth becoming an outlaw more.

[Monica21]

Xilizhra wrote...

Based on nothing more than that information, my Hawke decides that whatever is happening isn't worth becoming an outlaw. Siding with mages against the Templars and the Chantry hasn't exactly turn out well.

Nothing is worth becoming an outlaw more.

To you. My reasoning is still sound.

[Xilizhra]

Monica21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Based on nothing more than that information, my Hawke decides that whatever is happening isn't worth becoming an outlaw. Siding with mages against the Templars and the Chantry hasn't exactly turn out well.

Nothing is worth becoming an outlaw more.

To you. My reasoning is still sound.

I propose that it is not. I see no value in your decision.

[Monica21]

Xilizhra wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Based on nothing more than that information, my Hawke decides that whatever is happening isn't worth becoming an outlaw. Siding with mages against the Templars and the Chantry hasn't exactly turn out well.

Nothing is worth becoming an outlaw more.

To you. My reasoning is still sound.

I propose that it is not. I see no value in your decision.

Unless you can find flaws in my reasoning then you have no argument except your own personal disapproval. That's not enough.

[Xilizhra]

Unless you can find flaws in my reasoning then you have no argument except your own personal disapproval. That's not enough.

To you. My reasoning is still sound.

However, whatever's happening in the Circle is irrelevant. Whether Meredith should search the Circle or not is irrelevant. The fact is that she doesn't, leaping directly to the "genocide" option. I would have tried to find a diplomatic solution between her and Orsino if she was capable of such, but she proved herself to not be. She and the Templar Order have made themselves worthless menaces to innocent people, and they will be stopped.

[happy_daiz]

Monica21 wrote...

And yes, let's think about the crime. In a letter to Meredith Cullen references the mage underground and the raiding parties it is sending into the Gallows to free mages. I'm not sure if you get the codex entry about the Resolutionists if you don't have The Exiled Prince, but it is mentioned that they are willing to act violently against the Chantry in their efforts to gain total mage freedom. 

Combine those two and the Chantry bombing and it sounds an awful lot like a conspiracy. Even Meredith, in her insanity, would be downright irresponsible not to suspect that there are conspirators in the Circle and wonder if Viscount's Hall is next, or a marketplace, or the Gallows. I don't know if I would determine that the Circle can't be salvaged, but things are certainly spiraling out of control very quickly.

I usually take Anders on that quest, and have noticed that his dialogue seems like it's missing something...you know, the way that someone guilty might act, when trying to avoid a subject - by omitting it entirely, or using misdirection?

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it makes me think that since he's admitted to having "friends in the mage underground", and helping them out, that maybe there is a possibility that said friends are the Resolutionists, and perhaps they put him up to the bombing of the Chantry. If that is the case, I feel a little guilty for murder-knifing him so many times.

Modifié par happy_daiz, 14 septembre 2011 - 05:54 .

[LobselVith8]

Monica21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

What happens on-screen is that a pro-mage Hawke makes it clear that he's going to protect the mages from the incoming templars who plan on killing them, and he (or she) gets assistance from his moiety crew. We see Hawke killing templars and we see Hawke protecting mages. It's not as though Varric's comment that "many suvivors" were saved from the templars comes out of nowhere.

The fate of the three mages who are spared isn't known - they may be made tranquil, and Cullen makes it clear that he doesn't oppose the Rite of Tranquility, and it can be inferred that he even supports the Tranquil Solution (which is what Hawke and Anders say). We clearly aren't going to agree on Cullen.

A pro-Templar Hawke is shown killing blood mages, apostates, abominations and demons, and can request mercy for the group of mages who ask for it.

Three mages. That doesn't do much for the hundreds of mages who are being condemned to death by Meredith and are being killed by the templars.

Monica21 wrote...

In short, even a pro-Templar Hawke is killing only those who are clearly breaking the law and people who are trying to kill him.  There is absolutely nothing on screen to indicate that Hawke is killing slashing through every single mage. 

An entire population of people are being executed for an act that none of them committed - Anders alone is responsible for the destruction of the Kirkwall Chantry, and Meredith is murdering countless people because she wants to appease the hypothetical mob.

Monica21 wrote...

As for the three mages, no, we can't know. Despite Cullen's statement that "an argument can be made for using it more widely" (which I'd still like explained but I don't think the devs will give me that) this is a man who is beginning to question Meredith early in Act 3.

Yet Cullen only stops Meredith when Hawke's life is in danger, not when hundreds of lives are at stake.

Monica21 wrote...

He opposed the RoA and then relieved Meredith of her command. I feel fairly safe in my assumption that he will not choose tranquility for those mages though, especially if Hawke has anything to say about it.

Cullen doesn't oppose the RoA, he opposes the death of Hawke.

[phaonica]

Xilizhra wrote...

She and the Templar Order have made themselves worthless menaces to innocent people, and they will be stopped.

Only the selection of innocents that *you* have deemed more worth protecting than another selection.

[Monica21]

Xilizhra wrote...

Unless you can find flaws in my reasoning then you have no argument except your own personal disapproval. That's not enough.

To you. My reasoning is still sound.

I actually have no idea what your reasoning is or how you came to it. All I know is "Grr.. Templars bad!" That's not reason.

However, whatever's happening in the Circle is irrelevant. Whether Meredith should search the Circle or not is irrelevant. The fact is that she doesn't, leaping directly to the "genocide" option. I would have tried to find a diplomatic solution between her and Orsino if she was capable of such, but she proved herself to not be. She and the Templar Order have made themselves worthless menaces to innocent people, and they will be stopped.

If you've just decided that you're not going to connect point A to point B, then you've decided it. But the fact is that the Mage Underground has contact with the Circle. Anders is part of the Mage Underground and is a Resolutionist. And, oh by the way, has just committed a violent act that has taken lives. What is going on in the Circle most definitely matters.

[berelinde]

Your reasoning contains too many assumptions to be sound. Posting on a 5-minute lunch break, so no time, but in short 1) Siding with the templars does not preserve order. Nothing can. 2) Cullen's information about the mage underground is hearsay, not fact. 3) If you don't have the Exiled Prince, there is nothing about the Resolutionists in the codex. 4) "Combine these two and it sounds..." 'Nuff said.

Your arguments are based on opinions, just like everybody else's. Claiming logical superiority based on the soundness of your arguments versus anyone else's is not justified.

[Xilizhra]

If you've just decided that you're not going to connect point A to point B, then you've decided it. But the fact is that the Mage Underground has contact with the Circle. Anders is part of the Mage Underground and is a Resolutionist. And, oh by the way, has just committed a violent act that has taken lives. What is going on in the Circle most definitely matters.

It would only matter if Meredith was capable of reason, which she most definitely isn't.

[Bullets McDeath]

That's kind of the problem with DA2 and why you can argue for or against whichever side of the plot you want because for all it's "moral complexities", at the end of the day you're choosing between Dracula and Skeletor and you have to kill them both regardless. Any depth or reason to Orsino and Meredith's characters gets completely thrown out the window in the last moments of Act 3.

[LobselVith8]

Monica21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

So we should excuse templars who are killing hundreds of innocent men, women, and children because they were simply following orders? If Hawke has a choice to protect armed and armored soldiers who are going to kill innocent people or protecting the people who aren't responsible for the actions of one, single man, then I think Hawke has every right protecting the mages from the templars.

Yes, because that's how military orders work. You are trained from the moment you arrive at Basic to follow your superior's instructions with no question and no hesitation. Find someone who's served in the military and ask if he's ever followed an order he disagreed with or was uncomfortable with. If he says no then he's either lying or never served in combat. The fact that Cullen even voices his disapproval is kind of astonishing to me.

The fact that Cullen stands idly by while Meredith is having her templars kill hundreds of mages for an act that Anders is responsible for tells me everything I need to know about the Knight-Captain, especially the fact that he only stops the Knight-Commander when Hawke's life is in danger.

Monica21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

And the mages in the Circle of Kirkwall were indeed innocent of Anders' actions. Meredith's entire argument is that the people "will demand blood."

We know that the Circle was innocent but Meredith doesn't, nor do the other Templars. Look at this from the  Templars' point of view. You have an apostate mage who obviously intended to cause harm, not just to a building but to people. You have dissension in the Circle. As early as Act 2 Cullen is  saying, "The mages in Ferelden never opposed us this openly" or something similar. You're aware of significant numbers of blood mages and escapees. How much of a leap in logic is it to think that Anders' attack isn't the only one? How much of a leap is it to wonder if there are Circle mages helping? To wonder if Viscount's Hall isn't next or a marketplace or the Gallows? At the very least, Meredith had cause to sequester and question the Circle mages.

Meredith knows full well that Anders is alone responsible because he confesses right in front of her, and she never once contests his confession. Meredith even says that the Right of Annulment is about appeasing the mob that will demand blood - nothing more, nothing less.

[Monica21]

berelinde wrote...

Your reasoning contains too many assumptions to be sound. Posting on a 5-minute lunch break, so no time, but in short 1) Siding with the templars does not preserve order. Nothing can. 2) Cullen's information about the mage underground is hearsay, not fact. 3) If you don't have the Exiled Prince, there is nothing about the Resolutionists in the codex. 4) "Combine these two and it sounds..." 'Nuff said.

Your arguments are based on opinions, just like everybody else's. Claiming logical superiority based on the soundness of your arguments versus anyone else's is not justified.

1. Hawke doesn't know that at the time.
2. Cullen's information about the Mage Underground is entered into a memo to Meredith. He states that they have sent raiding parties into the Gallows. That is not hearsay or rumor.
3. That's too bad, because it's an interesting codex.
4. I have reached a logical conclusion based on ingame evidence. The Circle is aware of the Mage Underground and has had contact with it, via the raiding parties. "Nuff said" what?

[Xilizhra]

1. Hawke doesn't know that at the time.

The Maker did give Hawke a functioning brain.

[Monica21]

Xilizhra wrote...

1. Hawke doesn't know that at the time.

The Maker did give Hawke a functioning brain.

The Maker did not give Hawke the ability to see the future.

[Xilizhra]

Monica21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

1. Hawke doesn't know that at the time.

The Maker did give Hawke a functioning brain.

The Maker did not give Hawke the ability to see the future.

Really? Even I can see into the future. For instance, my finger will momentarily hit the "enter" key.

See?

My point being that it's possible to predict the future given present variables.

[rak72]

Xilizhra wrote...

1. Hawke doesn't know that at the time.

The Maker did give Hawke a functioning brain.

Hmmm......

[Xilizhra]

rak72 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

1. Hawke doesn't know that at the time.

The Maker did give Hawke a functioning brain.

Hmmm......

Yes, yes, I know plenty of people will disagree with me on that point.

[LobselVith8]

Monica21 wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Your reasoning contains too many assumptions to be sound. Posting on a 5-minute lunch break, so no time, but in short 1) Siding with the templars does not preserve order. Nothing can. 2) Cullen's information about the mage underground is hearsay, not fact. 3) If you don't have the Exiled Prince, there is nothing about the Resolutionists in the codex. 4) "Combine these two and it sounds..." 'Nuff said.

Your arguments are based on opinions, just like everybody else's. Claiming logical superiority based on the soundness of your arguments versus anyone else's is not justified.

1. Hawke doesn't know that at the time.

Hawke knows that Meredith isn't concerned with preserving the status quo, but with killing hundreds of people for an act that they aren't responsible for. Her actions are about satisfying the imaginary mob that she envisions will demand the blood of the mages.

Monica21 wrote...

2. Cullen's information about the Mage Underground is entered into a memo to Meredith. He states that they have sent raiding parties into the Gallows. That is not hearsay or rumor.

Anders points out that the mage underground has been crushed in Act III.

Monica21 wrote...

3. That's too bad, because it's an interesting codex.

I found it very poorly implemented when there's no other mention of the Resolutions anywhere in the narrative. Leliana's comments in "Faith" make little sense when mages and templars are uniting against Meredith's dictatorship, and even Hawke can gain the support of the commoners and the nobles against removing Meredith from her position when he publicly opposes her.

Monica21 wrote...

4. I have reached a logical conclusion based on ingame evidence. The Circle is aware of the Mage Underground and has had contact with it, via the raiding parties. "Nuff said" what?

The mage underground is gone by Act III - crushed by Meredith's forces. Even the mages who escaped in Act III (On the Loose) did so because of sympathetic templars.

[RagingCyclone]

outlaworacle wrote...

That's kind of the problem with DA2 and why you can argue for or against whichever side of the plot you want because for all it's "moral complexities", at the end of the day you're choosing between Dracula and Skeletor and you have to kill them both regardless. Any depth or reason to Orsino and Meredith's characters gets completely thrown out the window in the last moments of Act 3.

Very true, but it is fun to watch these two sides go at each other here. I almost expect Micheal Buffer to show up whenever I enter this thread. 

[phaonica]

outlaworacle wrote...

That's kind of the problem with DA2 and why you can argue for or against whichever side of the plot you want because for all it's "moral complexities", at the end of the day you're choosing between Dracula and Skeletor and you have to kill them both regardless. Any depth or reason to Orsino and Meredith's characters gets completely thrown out the window in the last moments of Act 3.

While I think that it's true that the complexities of Orsino and Meredith are undermined because of the way Act 3 is written, I think that ultimately their "character" is irrelevant. The conflict itself is of complex character (even if it, too, could have been written in an even more compelling manner).

[phaonica]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke knows that Meredith isn't concerned with preserving the status quo, but with killing hundreds of people for an act that they aren't responsible for. Her actions are about satisfying the imaginary mob that she envisions will demand the blood of the mages.

What difference does it make what Meredith's motives are? Even if Meredith's not interested in the status quo, but killing the mages could result in maintaining the status quo, then a Hawke who wants to maintain the status quo could agree with the action and not the motive.

Anders points out that the mage underground has been crushed in Act III.

When does this happen? I've heard that he says it, but I don't remember it or where it occurs.

Monica21 wrote...

3. That's too bad, because it's an interesting codex.

Even if it isn't in every game, within the games that Hawke does have this info s/he should be able to use it as a source from which to draw conclusions, I think.