2340 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

Meredith weren't the one who was tranquilizing harrowed mages. That was all Alrik (ie. not Meredith). Again, killing a person who harbors a fugitive would be a common punishment in such a society. It isn't a crime.
Meredith didn't actually commit a single crime throughout the game, despite what mage sympathizers try and make it sound like.

[happy_daiz]

I thought it was Ser Alrik with the "Tranquil Solution"; that Meredith rejected the idea. As for murdering mage sympathizers, that was a Templar who'd taken things into his own hands; misunderstood an order, if you will.

Honestly, I didn't see anything Meredith did as "evil", per se. I believe that in general, she thought she was doing the right thing, and was protecting the people of Kirkwall, as well as the mages. That bloody idol took someone Anders said, "was sincere in her convictions", and painted her in a very horrible, power-hungry light.

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Meredith weren't the one who was tranquilizing harrowed mages. That was all Alrik (ie. not Meredith). Again, killing a person who harbors a fugitive would be a common punishment in such a society. It isn't a crime.
Meredith didn't actually commit a single crime throughout the game, despite what mage sympathizers try and make it sound like.

Uncertain on both counts, but I suppose in the end it really doesn't matter. Thedas' laws are ****ty anyway, and Meredith (and Elthina) needed to fall regardless.

Honestly, I didn't see anything Meredith did as "evil", per se. I believe that in general, she thought she was doing the right thing, and was protecting the people of Kirkwall, as well as the mages. That bloody idol took someone Anders said, "was sincere in her convictions", and painted her in a very horrible, power-hungry light.

No one doesn't believe that what they do is the right thing. It doesn't matter.

Not that I don't sympathize with Meredith. She's nearly as much a victim of the system as the mages, not to mention being one of the idol.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 16 septembre 2011 - 02:52 .

[Monica21]

Xilizhra wrote...
Tranquilizing Harrowed mages, murdering nonmages who sympathized with them,  and I suspect many of her general methods of enforcement weren't strictly legal either. Of course, most of the legal things she did were quite evil as well, not least the Annulment.

Other than Karl, what evidence is there that Meredith was part of a widespread plan to tranquil mages? She didn't approve Alrik's suggestion. And "suspecting" is not the same as "evidence." And you were asked the legality of what she did, not whether you determined her actions to be evil or not.

[Xilizhra]

Monica21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Tranquilizing Harrowed mages, murdering nonmages who sympathized with them,  and I suspect many of her general methods of enforcement weren't strictly legal either. Of course, most of the legal things she did were quite evil as well, not least the Annulment.

Other than Karl, what evidence is there that Meredith was part of a widespread plan to tranquil mages? She didn't approve Alrik's suggestion. And "suspecting" is not the same as "evidence." And you were asked the legality of what she did, not whether you determined her actions to be evil or not.

I believe that she kept it up in Act 3, after Alrik was dead.

[Monica21]

Xilizhra wrote...
Uncertain on both counts, but I suppose in the end it really doesn't matter. Thedas' laws are ****ty anyway, and Meredith (and Elthina) needed to fall regardless.

How can you be uncertain of something that is specifically stated in the game as being true? Meredith and the Grand Cleric did not approve Alrik's plan. The end.

Modifié par Monica21, 16 septembre 2011 - 02:54 .

[Wulfram]

Meredith must have known about the tranquilizations, surely. It's not like you can hide the fact that there's a new zombie with a burn mark wandering the Gallows.

She also seems to have tranquilled 3 of the escaped Starkhaven mages at random. Of course, they're pretty lucky she just didn't kill them all.

[Monica21]

Xilizhra wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Tranquilizing Harrowed mages, murdering nonmages who sympathized with them,  and I suspect many of her general methods of enforcement weren't strictly legal either. Of course, most of the legal things she did were quite evil as well, not least the Annulment.

Other than Karl, what evidence is there that Meredith was part of a widespread plan to tranquil mages? She didn't approve Alrik's suggestion. And "suspecting" is not the same as "evidence." And you were asked the legality of what she did, not whether you determined her actions to be evil or not.

I believe that she kept it up in Act 3, after Alrik was dead.

You've gone from arguing from a subjective point of view to just throwing out wild supposition. You have zero evidence for this.

[RagingCyclone]

Xilizhra--I'll put it this way and be done. My Hawkes would have preferred to close off the Gallows and let the Templars and mages have at each other and leave the rest of the city out of it. Both sides are asking for a fight, both sides are acting foolishly and rashly, and in the end it would have been better to let them fight it out leaving the city alone, then see what happened when the dust settled. Neither side uses any rational thought...or thinking at all for that matter. Unfortunately Hawke is left without a true backbone, and the only person who was able to make both sides back down (very beginning of Act 3) is blown up by Anders who himself is not thinking clearly at that point only truly serving a lust for vengeance. Instead all hell breaks loose and the bodies you can loot in the city aren't mages or Templars. Be as militant as you want, throw around terms like genocide if you want, but in the end both sides are in the wrong. There are no heroes in the end.

Modifié par RagingCyclone, 16 septembre 2011 - 02:57 .

[Xilizhra]

RagingCyclone wrote...

Xilizhra--I'll put it this way and be done. My Hawkes would have preferred to close off the Gallows and let the Templars and mages have at each other and leave the rest of the city out of it. Both sides are asking for a fight, both sides are acting foolishly and rashly, and in the end it would have been better to let them fight it out leaving the city alone, then see what happened when the dust settled. Neither side uses any rational thought...or thinking at all for that matter. Unfortunately Hawke is left without a true backbone, and the only person who was able to make both sides back down (very beginning of Act 3) is blown up by Anders who himself is not thinking clearly at that point only truly serving a lust for vengeance. Instead all hell breaks loose and the bodies you can loot in the city aren't mages or Templars. Be as militant as you want, throw around terms like genocide if you want, but in the end both sides are in the wrong. There are no heroes in the end.

Elthina was simply enabling Meredith on every occasion but that one. I see no reason to be upset over her death, and no reason to equivocate the conflict. The templars will fall, now and on every occasion that I can bring about in the future.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Wulfram wrote...

Meredith must have known about the tranquilizations, surely. It's not like you can hide the fact that there's a new zombie with a burn mark wandering the Gallows.

She also seems to have tranquilled 3 of the escaped Starkhaven mages at random. Of course, they're pretty lucky she just didn't kill them all.

If there is "hundreds" of mages in the Gallows, you can't expect Meredith to keep track of all their faces, and remember exactly how many tranquil there is, and what they look like. 

[Wulfram]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
If there is "hundreds" of mages in the Gallows, you can't expect Meredith to keep track of all their faces, and remember exactly how many tranquil there is, and what they look like. 

Keeping track of the mages is her job.  Though she does seem pretty bad at it, generally.

She might not notice it personally, but she's got people reporting to her.  If nothing else, Orsino would surely complain about it.

Modifié par Wulfram, 16 septembre 2011 - 03:07 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Keeping track of students is the principal's jjob. The principal don't know all of his students eitehr. He know what is going on in his school on a general level, not every single detail of every single student.

[Wulfram]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Keeping track of students is the principal's jjob. The principal don't know all of his students eitehr. He know what is going on in his school on a general level, not every single detail of every single student.

The principal isn't running a prison.  And I'd expect him to notice if one of his students was destroying the minds of some of the students.  That's not a minor detail.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Circle is equal parts school and prison. But if you really care so much, then exchange the words principal, school and students, with warden, prison and prisoners, and the point still stands.

[Wulfram]

The point being that a prison warden could be totally unaware that one of her guards was destroying the minds of the inmates?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Yes. Especially since these "destroyed" inmates are already common enough in the prison, and thus seeing one of them, would not raise any suspecion.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 16 septembre 2011 - 03:44 .

[Wulfram]

Well, I'd expect such a negligent warden to be immediately removed from her post and probably prosecuted.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Meredith weren't the one who was tranquilizing harrowed mages. That was all Alrik (ie. not Meredith). Again, killing a person who harbors a fugitive would be a common punishment in such a society. It isn't a crime.
Meredith didn't actually commit a single crime throughout the game, despite what mage sympathizers try and make it sound like.

Meredith had her templar death squad attempt to murder a woman because she fed her tortured and starving mage cousin. I'm pretty certain murder is still illegal in Kirkwall.

[Monica21]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Meredith weren't the one who was tranquilizing harrowed mages. That was all Alrik (ie. not Meredith). Again, killing a person who harbors a fugitive would be a common punishment in such a society. It isn't a crime.
Meredith didn't actually commit a single crime throughout the game, despite what mage sympathizers try and make it sound like.

Meredith had her templar death squad attempt to murder a woman because she fed her tortured and starving mage cousin. I'm pretty certain murder is still illegal in Kirkwall.

I don't remember that. When does it happen?

[LobselVith8]

Monica21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Meredith weren't the one who was tranquilizing harrowed mages. That was all Alrik (ie. not Meredith). Again, killing a person who harbors a fugitive would be a common punishment in such a society. It isn't a crime.
Meredith didn't actually commit a single crime throughout the game, despite what mage sympathizers try and make it sound like.

Meredith had her templar death squad attempt to murder a woman because she fed her tortured and starving mage cousin. I'm pretty certain murder is still illegal in Kirkwall.

I don't remember that. When does it happen?

Pro-mage Hawke, Act III, "A Noble Agenda."

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Meredith weren't the one who was tranquilizing harrowed mages. That was all Alrik (ie. not Meredith). Again, killing a person who harbors a fugitive would be a common punishment in such a society. It isn't a crime.
Meredith didn't actually commit a single crime throughout the game, despite what mage sympathizers try and make it sound like.

Meredith had her templar death squad attempt to murder a woman because she fed her tortured and starving mage cousin. I'm pretty certain murder is still illegal in Kirkwall.

Except it isn't murder. It is punishing a wopman for harboring a fugitive. Death would be a quite normal form of punishment in such societies.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Wulfram wrote...

Well, I'd expect such a negligent warden to be immediately removed from her post and probably prosecuted.

Negligent? She doesn't even recieve the report that the amges are illegally being tranquilized, how is she to know? Unless you are setting unreasonable demands of requiring her to recognize the face of litterally hundreds of different people, and knowing every single detail of what is going on.

[Wulfram]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Negligent? She doesn't even recieve the report that the amges are illegally being tranquilized, how is she to know? Unless you are setting unreasonable demands of requiring her to recognize the face of litterally hundreds of different people, and knowing every single detail of what is going on.

I'm expecting her to guard her prisoners.  This doesn't have to be personally, of course, but if she hasn't recieved a report then that can only be the consequence of massive negligence on her part.

Every single detail, no.  Just the ones which are fundamental to her duties.

[EmperorSahlertz]

She is relying on her subordinates to deliver such reports. These reports were kept from her by Alrik, after she denied his Tranquil Solution.She is not omniscient, and you are asking her to know an unknown unknown. She doesn't know that reports are kept from her.