2340 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

LPPrince wrote...

I honestly don't understand how people can support a terrorist like Anders.

It's like calling the soldiers in Inglorious Basterds terrorists when they blew up the movie theatre. He was a mage, and they were members of an organization that enslaved his people.

LPPrince wrote...

Orsino- Good intentions, but he's a buttplug for resorting to Blood Magic and not stopping Quentin.

Why are we assuming he even had a chance to stop Quentin if they were corresponding through letters?

LPPrince wrote...

Anders- Good intentions, but a super duper buttplug for nuking tons of innocent people and killing the ONE person that could've settled things and averted a war.

He didn't want concessions that would mean nothing a few years down the line, he wanted independence for the mages. He didn't want the Grand Cleric to negotiate a temporary truce when mages were being tortured, raped, given a lobotomy and killed across the continent when his actions could inspire mages across Thedas to rise up and free themselves from their oppressors.

LPPrince wrote...

Ander's intentions don't give him an excuse for what he did.

That's like saying the attacks on 9/11 were justified because of the intentions of the bombers' backers.

Anders was freeing his people who were enslaved to the Chantry, and his attack was on members of an organization that enslave mages. Your comparison absolutely fails when you take this into account.

[GabranthSG]

I think you guys are missing the point here. Anders clearly said that he didn't want the compromise that Grand Cleric Elthina would provide for the conflict. He is removing the source of the compromise and deliberately starting a war so that the Mages and the Templars would fight it out with each other. He didn't want to avert a war. He wanted to end the facade of peace between the Chantry and the Magi because there was never peace to begin with. At least by pushing the issue over the edge would the Mages at least have a chance to fight for their freedom. He said that himself. He'd rather die fighting.

[Sjofn]

I spared him (my LadyHawke romanced him and had already lost so much, she couldn't bring herself to lose another person she loved, especially not by her own hand), but I do not for a second blame anyone for killing him. I seriously considered it, which had you told me I would do so before I knew what he did, I would've thought you were crazy.

[Silver]

In my first playthrough I knifed him, though in my current one (just started a few hours ago) i'll let him live with his guilt for what he did.
Also, I didn't (and still don't) like him as a character...

[The Spirit of Dance]

yep i killed Anders but ended up siding with the mages anyway. reasons: Bethany, romanced Merrill and i sided with the mages on just about everything i figured i'd stay consistent.

[MKDAWUSS]

Spared him. My female Hawke romanced him, as well. Also, that was an act of war, and there are no innocents in war. It was something my Warden probably wouldn't have allowed, but Hawke isn't the Warden.

Though that entire storyline made me miss Awakening Anders.

[Sjofn]

Yeah, most of my Wardens would've murderknifed the hell out of him.

[leggywillow]

Nope, I can't kill him.  Does he deserve it?  Maybe.  Probably.  I can't do it, though.  It's like a much more controversial Alistair vs. Loghain decision.  I really liked and respected Loghain as a character, but I couldn't give up Alistair for him, no matter how fitting it may have been to the story.  Sorry.

Even if I wanted to kill him, I probably couldn't just because he's such a good healer.  It's the same reason I dragged Wynne around everywhere with me in Origins no mattter what.

[XX55XX]

I killed him. What he did offered little defense - and I too stood up for the mages in the end.

[CantiCooly]

yup i killed even though i liked his character since awakening i couldnt accept his act of terrorism.

[ThatDancingTurian]

Killed him.

I'd kill him even if I romanced him. Even if I played a pro-mage (which I did). Because he's a monster and it's clear he can't be saved. He doesn't even seem to want to be anymore. I really don't understand the point of the character at all except as a plot catalyst, which is a poor reason to write an entire character. He's basically Kreia, to the point where when his evil is revealed you're like, "Big surprise."

It was obvious he was already insane and fanatical, and there was no option to change that or fix him. And he wasn't even a good villain because even if you kill him he still acts like a martyr. There's no satisfying conclusion to it.

I'm just really disappointed, I thought he was written incredibly poorly. There was no character arc at all. It starts to look like there might be one when he almost kills that mage, but it turns out that was some kind of misdirect or something. Eventually it didn't matter. He started crazy, evil and hypocritical and ended crazy, evil and hypocritical. He had one dimension, "Kill templars, free mages", and no personality otherwise. Aside from the occasional joke that seemed ridiculously out of place scattered in between rants and insults at the other companions for their supposed anti-mage-ness.

What I don't understand is why he -had- to be Anders, when the two characters have absolutely nothing in common aside from a common background. He could have been anyone. He could have even had the same 'Circle Mage turned Grey Warden' back-story because let's face it, there's no way you can get these two characters confused. I found it easy to forget he was even supposed to be the character from Awakening.

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 12 mars 2011 - 09:58 .

[Dangerfoot]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Because Anders wants to free his people from slavery, and Meredith wants to kill all the mages because of the actions of one man standing right in front of her.

Grand Cleric Elthina did nothing but remain neutral the entire time. Anders made a decision and paid the emotional cost of his actions with his guilt, and had no problem losing his life if it came down to that. I couldn't kill a man because he wanted to free people from slavery. Anders gave the mages the opportunity to be free from their oppressors, and if Hawke sides with the Kirkwall Circle, it worked.

If you recall, the Order of Templars is the military arm of the Chantry, and it's the Chantry that said no to the Magi boon asked by the Hero of Ferelden. Leliana didn't care that an Exalted March would be declared on Kirkwall and only went to the city-state to warn Grand Cleric Elthina to leave, and all Brother Burkel wanted to do is convert the dwarves of Orzammar (and he seemed to have distain for their religion when he references the Ancestors). Considering that Anders killed members of an organization that oppress and enslaves mages across the Andrastian nations, I don't see how you can say he killed innocents when the people in the building were part of a group that has enslaved Anders' people for nearly a milennia.

You claim it's not black and white, and yet you continuously regard the Chantry in a negative light, willfully ignoring any point I make about them not being a group that is based around slavery. You seem to see the Chantry as completely black and Anders as completely white. A lot of your arguments seem hypocritical, so I hope you're just playing devil's advocate.

Meredith didn't just snap and decide to kill all the mages based on Anders' actions, she wanted to control them because of the countless blood mages that you may not have noticed over the course of the game. She even sent you on a quest so that you could see the problems she's facing. She is not a "good guy", but neither is Anders, they are both making descions that a truly honorable person would never make, possibly for good reason but that is beside the point.

Anway, Anders IS essentially a terrorist. His people have been stepped on and so he takes it out on innocent people to show his oppressors that they have something to fear. Sebastion had every right to want him dead, a terrorist had just killed everyone and everything that mattered to him. Again, in this way Anders is just as much a villain as Meredith.

[moonandserpent]

It was Anders because its more of a punch in the gut that its an old friend/recurring NPC.

And I killed him. The man who learned to be a hero with my Grey Warden, the brooding man who kept a kitten as a bit. The child who drew pictures of a tiger named "Ser Pounce A Lot" killing templars in the margins of books in the Circle (in Witch Hunt). He did something unthinkable, murdered innocent people because he had no faith in Hawke or himself. So I shivved him.

Honestly, it felt a lot like "suicide by cop" - especially with his giving out his posessions and saying final goodbyes after the Justice quest. And he was right... he HAD figured out a way to separate himself from justice.

[Dangerfoot]

I agree that he was a very poorly written character. Not fleshed out enough and I really wish there were more variables to the ending. It becomes way to much of A or B, mages or templars, no creativity allowed.

Modifié par Dangerfoot, 12 mars 2011 - 10:49 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

moonandserpent wrote...

It was Anders because its more of a punch in the gut that its an old friend/recurring NPC.

And I killed him. The man who learned to be a hero with my Grey Warden, the brooding man who kept a kitten as a bit. The child who drew pictures of a tiger named "Ser Pounce A Lot" killing templars in the margins of books in the Circle (in Witch Hunt). He did something unthinkable, murdered innocent people because he had no faith in Hawke or himself. So I shivved him.

Honestly, it felt a lot like "suicide by cop" - especially with his giving out his posessions and saying final goodbyes after the Justice quest. And he was right... he HAD figured out a way to separate himself from justice.

Yeah, but... He wasn't anything like that guy. So it wasn't a punch in the gut to me, it was just, "Why does this guy keep acting like he's Anders?" ... His complete contrast with the DA:A character from the very start made it impossible to relate the two. When he talked about having a cat named Ser Pounce-A-Lot all I could think was, "No you didn't, that was Anders' cat!"

If there had been anything resembling a natural character progression then it might have meant something. But there wasn't. He's already changed from the start and this new abomination is the only thing you know.

[Silver]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

moonandserpent wrote...

It was Anders because its more of a punch in the gut that its an old friend/recurring NPC.

And I killed him. The man who learned to be a hero with my Grey Warden, the brooding man who kept a kitten as a bit. The child who drew pictures of a tiger named "Ser Pounce A Lot" killing templars in the margins of books in the Circle (in Witch Hunt). He did something unthinkable, murdered innocent people because he had no faith in Hawke or himself. So I shivved him.

Honestly, it felt a lot like "suicide by cop" - especially with his giving out his posessions and saying final goodbyes after the Justice quest. And he was right... he HAD figured out a way to separate himself from justice.

Yeah, but... He wasn't anything like that guy. So it wasn't a punch in the gut to me, it was just, "Why does this guy keep acting like he's Anders?" ... His complete contrast with the DA:A character from the very start made it impossible to relate the two. When he talked about having a cat named Ser Pounce-A-Lot all I could think was, "No you didn't, that was Anders' cat!"

If there had been anything resembling a natural character progression then it might have meant something. But there wasn't. He's already changed from the start and this new abomination is the only thing you know.

I didn't even realize there was that big of a shift in his character.
Maybe I should have picked DA:A up after all

[LobselVith8]

Dangerfoot wrote...

You claim it's not black and white, and yet you continuously regard the Chantry in a negative light, willfully ignoring any point I make about them not being a group that is based around slavery. You seem to see the Chantry as completely black and Anders as completely white. A lot of your arguments seem hypocritical, so I hope you're just playing devil's advocate. 

Considering that all the Circles are controlled by the Chantry, and all the mages are effectively slaves of the Chantry through their military division, I don't see why it should be ignored. Again, I never said that the Chantry was evil or that the templars were bad, but as a mage, they were antagonists to someone like Anders who was trying to free his people from subjugation.

DA2 allows us to choose between the templars and the mages. You're welcome to choose the templars, but I don't see what's hypocritical about siding with the mages or not condemning a man for wanting his people to no longer be slaves.

Dangerfoot wrote...

Meredith didn't just snap and decide to kill all the mages based on Anders' actions, she wanted to control them because of the countless blood mages that you may not have noticed over the course of the game. She even sent you on a quest so that you could see the problems she's facing. She is not a "good guy", but neither is Anders, they are both making descions that a truly honorable person would never make, possibly for good reason but that is beside the point.

We could argue endlessly over whether the mages turned to blood magic because of how oppressive the Kirkwall Circle was or whether it was the other way around, but it's doubtful that we'll reach a consensus. This point is addressed in DA2, and you can tell Meredith directly that two of the mages she asked you to hunt down resorted to blood magic because of the Chantry's domination over mages. I suppose it's essentially a matter of perspective, because there's no clear answer.

Dangerfoot wrote...

Anway, Anders IS essentially a terrorist. His people have been stepped on and so he takes it out on innocent people to show his oppressors that they have something to fear. Sebastion had every right to want him dead, a terrorist had just killed everyone and everything that mattered to him. Again, in this way Anders is just as much a villain as Meredith.

I'm certain France would have argued that the African slaves who revolted in Saint Dominique were terrrorists, too, for refusing to accept a life of servitude, but it's an issue of perspective. In a time of war, you kill the enemy. It's not like Anders attacked a random group of innocent people here, Anders attacked a Chantry building, and it's the Chantry who control the Order of Templars and enslave mages through their Circles. I don't see Anders as a villain at all, because he wants to free his people. You're welcome to disagree, of course.

[aluanira]

I let him live. I didn't romance him but my rogue Hawke needed a healer for the final battle.

[magnuskn]

I killed him. I couldn't stand that act of terrorism stand. And his final comment proved me right. Ugh.

[highcastle]

I let him live. I'd romanced him, I was really attached to his character, and it was still an uncomfortable moment. I've honestly never felt so bad about myself for sparing somebody before. On one hand, what he did was despicable. On the other, he's been through hell and I don't think it was entirely his idea. At least, I don't think he would've done it if not possessed.

This was easily the most morally gray aspect of the game. Great writing on BioWare's part for making this genuinely uncomfortable instead of black-and-white like so many other games. It's not often you see the underdogs and the oppressed using morally questionable means to fight back. And it's not often you see a terrorist portrayed sympathetically, though not wholly positively. V for Vendetta was probably the last to do it well (the graphic novel much moreso than the film).

[cglasgow]

If Anders had wanted to build a giant bomb to blow up templars with, my mage-supporting Warrior Hawke have helped him.

But instead Anders deliberately wants to massacre a peacemaking holy woman and a bunch of nuns who work to feed orphaned children (walk around the Chantry in act 1 sometime and listen to the incidentals), not templars. Why? Because people won't be pissed off enough if he kills templars. No, he wants to make things as worse as they possibly can get, because he deliberately wants to horrify everyone in the world.  And so he mass murders innocents.

My warrior Hawke backed mages on virtually every play, and chose the mage ending to keep his beloved sister alive... and he murder-knifed Anders without a moment's hesitation.

"Terrorism" is not defined by intent; it is utterly irrelevant to intent. It is defined by method. And so I executed Anders.

And that's entirely aside from the other reason to execute Anders; specifically, that he's finally gone completely insane and has admitted that he'll never stop killing until he's stopped, the hard way.

So yeah, murder-knife him twice over. Right now I'm running Mage Hawke... and she's going to murder-knife Anders again when it gets that far.

Modifié par cglasgow, 13 mars 2011 - 01:06 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

Well said, cglasgow.

It's not just that he went insane, he's an actual literal monster. He doesn't change much from the beginning to the end of the game IMO, so it seems he was always capable of this from the start. We hear off-handed comments about how he's 'fighting the spirit', but we never see that in-game. All we see is him biding his time.

As far as my mage Hawke was concerned, he fooled her into thinking there was anything human inside him but there wasn't. He's just an abomination.

[LPPrince]

I'll always murder-knife Anders.

[Dante Angelo]

I killed him. Even though I hate the chantry and the templers. Grand Cleric Elthina was one of the good people that the chantry had other than Leliana(who seems to have gotten prettier since I last saw her) Also the Anders in DA:II was not the Anders I was knew. The Anders I knew would've said F*ck it I don't want to get killed I'll just sit back and make snarky comments. Also I didn't like his new voice artist. I miss Greg Ellis

[ThatDancingTurian]

Dante Angelo wrote...

Also I didn't like his new voice artist. I miss Greg Ellis

I didn't either, but I'm much happier that Greg Ellis continued to play Cullen instead of this new weird Not!Anders. If he could only play one he clearly ended up with the superior role. My mage Hawke very much wanted to jump that charismatic (and surprisingly reasonable) Knight-Captain, and she was anti-Templar.

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 13 mars 2011 - 01:33 .