2340 réponses à ce sujet

[DoNotIngest]

No, I didn't, out of spite to Anders. Plus it pissed off choire boy, can't go wrong with that.


Also, killing mage companions is a tad bit of a bad habit that I really don't want to pick up, given Merrill & Bethany.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Meredith weren't the one who was tranquilizing harrowed mages. That was all Alrik (ie. not Meredith). Again, killing a person who harbors a fugitive would be a common punishment in such a society. It isn't a crime.
Meredith didn't actually commit a single crime throughout the game, despite what mage sympathizers try and make it sound like.

Meredith had her templar death squad attempt to murder a woman because she fed her tortured and starving mage cousin. I'm pretty certain murder is still illegal in Kirkwall.

Except it isn't murder. It is punishing a wopman for harboring a fugitive. Death would be a quite normal form of punishment in such societies.

Templars may think they have "divine right" over mages per Chantry law, but there's no evidence that extents to civilians. Since Meredith was illegally acting as a dictator over the city-state and preventing the legal election of a new Viscount, I see the actions of the death squad in trying to kill a civilian as murder.

[Wulfram]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

She is relying on her subordinates to deliver such reports. These reports were kept from her by Alrik, after she denied his Tranquil Solution.She is not omniscient, and you are asking her to know an unknown unknown. She doesn't know that reports are kept from her.

So Ser Alrik can keep her totally ignorant of the tranquils wandering about her courtyard saying "I am Ser Alrik's now".  And she's competent to command the Templars?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Wulfram wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

She is relying on her subordinates to deliver such reports. These reports were kept from her by Alrik, after she denied his Tranquil Solution.She is not omniscient, and you are asking her to know an unknown unknown. She doesn't know that reports are kept from her.

So Ser Alrik can keep her totally ignorant of the tranquils wandering about her courtyard saying "I am Ser Alrik's now".  And she's competent to command the Templars?

And again: There were Tranquils in the courtyard BEFORE Alrik's actions. Seeing a new one isn't going to raise any suspecions since Meredith realistically doesn't know the face of all the Tranquils to begin with.

[Wulfram]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And again: There were Tranquils in the courtyard BEFORE Alrik's actions. Seeing a new one isn't going to raise any suspecions since Meredith realistically doesn't know the face of all the Tranquils to begin with.

And again:  I'm not expecting her to know the face of all the tranquils.  I'm just expecting her to listen to one of the hundreds of people, Templar and mage, who would recognise the newly tranquillised mages.

But she was probably too busy checking under her desk for blood mages.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Where a blood mage most likely was actually hiding, going by the rate of blood mages in Kirkwall...
Anyway... Those reports are kept from her. No one has been telling her of the increased rate of tranquilled mages. So how is she again supposed to know? Those who knows of their illegallity, are being kept silent by Alrik, everyone else will simply assume that it has been a bad year for the mages... So to speak.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 16 septembre 2011 - 05:07 .

[Wulfram]

If she was doing her job, such things could not be kept from her by a single Templar.

[phaonica]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Templars may think they have "divine right" over mages per Chantry law, but there's no evidence that extents to civilians. Since Meredith was illegally acting as a dictator over the city-state and preventing the legal election of a new Viscount, I see the actions of the death squad in trying to kill a civilian as murder.

Or maybe their ability to punish those harboring apostates *is* evidence of their jurisdiction extending to civilians.

[LobselVith8]

phaonica wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Templars may think they have "divine right" over mages per Chantry law, but there's no evidence that extents to civilians. Since Meredith was illegally acting as a dictator over the city-state and preventing the legal election of a new Viscount, I see the actions of the death squad in trying to kill a civilian as murder.

Or maybe their ability to punish those harboring apostates *is* evidence of their jurisdiction extending to civilians.

Or maybe it's an example of how depraved some templars are in attempting to murder a woman who had the audacity to give her tortured and starving mage cousin food.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Wulfram wrote...

If she was doing her job, such things could not be kept from her by a single Templar.

Uhm.. Her job is to listen to such reports, and then base her judgements on such reports. She was prevented from doing her job by Alrik. Besides, it depends on the power of the Templar in question.

[phaonica]

LobselVith8 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Templars may think they have "divine right" over mages per Chantry law, but there's no evidence that extents to civilians. Since Meredith was illegally acting as a dictator over the city-state and preventing the legal election of a new Viscount, I see the actions of the death squad in trying to kill a civilian as murder.

Or maybe their ability to punish those harboring apostates *is* evidence of their jurisdiction extending to civilians.

Or maybe it's an example of how depraved some templars are in attempting to murder a woman who had the audacity to give her tortured and starving mage cousin food.

I think you're jumping to the conclusions that best fit your premade judgments.

Modifié par phaonica, 16 septembre 2011 - 05:50 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

DoNotIngest wrote...

Also, killing mage companions is a tad bit of a bad habit that I really don't want to pick up, given Merrill & Bethany.

Bethany? Sure. But killing Merrill early on would've saved a lot of trouble.

[Wulfram]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


Uhm.. Her job is to listen to such reports, and then base her judgements on such reports. She was prevented from doing her job by Alrik. Besides, it depends on the power of the Templar in question.

So your theory is what?  She never met any Templar or Mage ever except for Ser Alrik?  Or that Ser Cullen, Orsino and every other mage and templar in Kirkwall just ignored the blatantly obvious presence of illegally tranquilled mages?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Again. There are already many tranquilled mages in the Circle.. They aren't neccesarily going to notice a few more. Furthermore, all Templars do not report to Meredith. The normal Templars would report to their lieutenant, which would report to the captain, and then to Meredith.

[LobselVith8]

phaonica wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Or maybe it's an example of how depraved some templars are in attempting to murder a woman who had the audacity to give her tortured and starving mage cousin food.

I think you're jumping to the conclusions that best fit your premade judgments.

Coming from someone who is defending the killing of a defenseless woman by armed and armored soldiers?

[happy_daiz]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

If she was doing her job, such things could not be kept from her by a single Templar.

Uhm.. Her job is to listen to such reports, and then base her judgements on such reports. She was prevented from doing her job by Alrik. Besides, it depends on the power of the Templar in question.

Agreed. If her subordinates were doing THEIR jobs, she might have known, but not otherwise.

I don't understand how anyone could expect Meredith to know every single little thing going on in the city, or even amongst her Templars.  If there were things going on she was unaware of, wouldn't it be the duty and reponsibility of the Knight Captain? And those below him? Good god, she's not psychic. This sounds like an expectation I deal with on a daily basis at work.

Speaking of which, the CEO of the company I work for has absolutely no clue what I, or any other individual in the company is doing, has done, or will do tomorrow. He relies on the next level of management to keep him informed, and they make their own judgement calls to decide what he's privy to. And this is in a company of 60 people.

[phaonica]

LobselVith8 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Or maybe it's an example of how depraved some templars are in attempting to murder a woman who had the audacity to give her tortured and starving mage cousin food.

I think you're jumping to the conclusions that best fit your premade judgments.

Coming from someone who is defending the killing of a defenseless woman by armed and armored soldiers?

The only thing I am defending is the fact that if there is no evidence whether or not the authority of Chantry law  extends over the citizens as well as mages, the *legality* of punishing people for harboring apostates cannot be determined.

[LobselVith8]

phaonica wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Coming from someone who is defending the killing of a defenseless woman by armed and armored soldiers?

The only thing I am defending is the fact that if there is no evidence whether or not the authority of Chantry law  extends over the citizens as well as mages, the *legality* of punishing people for harboring apostates cannot be determined.

I originally wrote that there's no evidence that the templars have any rights over civilians. What makes me doubt that the templars have the legal right to kill civilians is that the templars right to kill runaway mages depends on whether they are apostates or maleficarum, so I don't see how templars would have the right to kill defenseless civilians when a Circle mage is supposed to be brought back to the Circle Tower even if he (or she) has gone apostate (like Anders, who was brought back seven times after becoming an apostate).

[Wulfram]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Again. There are already many tranquilled mages in the Circle.. They aren't neccesarily going to notice a few more. Furthermore, all Templars do not report to Meredith. The normal Templars would report to their lieutenant, which would report to the captain, and then to Meredith.

The people, Templar and Mage, who know this person are going to notice that she is now a mindless automoton walking about saying how she belongs to Ser Alrik.

And if her organisation is set up so that no one, Templar or Mage, can report that Ser Alrik has tranquilled someone without Ser Alrik blocking it, then she has failed in her duties to an astonishing degree.

[MichaelFinnegan]

happy_daiz wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

If she was doing her job, such things could not be kept from her by a single Templar.

Uhm.. Her job is to listen to such reports, and then base her judgements on such reports. She was prevented from doing her job by Alrik. Besides, it depends on the power of the Templar in question.

Agreed. If her subordinates were doing THEIR jobs, she might have known, but not otherwise.

And what if her subordinates weren't doing their jobs? What happens then? Her excuse would have been what? My next in command didn't tell me so I'm not to blame?

I don't understand how anyone could expect Meredith to know every single little thing going on in the city, or even amongst her Templars.

Not every little thing, no. But some things, yes. Especially, when things are going wrong.

If there were things going on she was unaware of, wouldn't it be the duty and reponsibility of the Knight Captain? And those below him? Good god, she's not psychic.

Surely if some Knight-Captain under her command failed in his/her duties, she'd have to take notice, no? Not only that: there'd have to be ways set up to know when the Knight-Captain is not telling the truth or when he/she is failing in his/her duties - and this would necessarily involve skipping the chain of command to reach lower; or reach across and listening to the grievances of mages. Otherwise, she'd be taking things on faith alone.

Knowing everything or not is a different thing, but knowing when the person under her fails in his/her duties would have to be part of her job description; which the system would need to acknowledge. Unless you think for some reason this shouldn't happen at all?

[phaonica]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I originally wrote that there's no evidence that the templars have any rights over civilians. What makes me doubt that the templars have the legal right to kill civilians is that the templars right to kill runaway mages depends on whether they are apostates or maleficarum, so I don't see how templars would have the right to kill defenseless civilians when a Circle mage is supposed to be brought back to the Circle Tower even if he (or she) has gone apostate (like Anders, who was brought back seven times after becoming an apostate).

The Templars' right to punish civilians seems to depend on if those civilians are harboring apostates, which seems to be a crime under Chantry law.

However, there also seems to be conflicting information on how exactly Chantry law works:

No matter how a mage has become apostate, the Chantry treats them alike: Templars begin a systematic hunt to bring the apostate to justice. In almost all cases, "justice" is execution. If there is some overriding reason the mage should live, the Rite of Tranquility is employed instead. Whether we of the Circle of Magi believe this system fair is irrelevant: It is what it is. --From Patterns Within Form, by Halden, First Enchanter of Starkhaven, 8:80 Blessed. (Codex entry: Apostates)

Modifié par phaonica, 16 septembre 2011 - 07:11 .

[Silentblaze]

Do I kill Anders? Nope.

I did the same thing as my Landsmeet decision in DAO. I told to one (Alistair/ Sebastian) to leave and go run his kingdom and told the other (Loghain/ Anders) to help me to make up for his screw ups.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Wulfram wrote...

The people, Templar and Mage, who know this person are going to notice that she is now a mindless automoton walking about saying how she belongs to Ser Alrik.

A tranquil is bereft of "emotions" only, not the rest of the functioning of her mind. She'd still retain the powers of reasoning, I'd think. So I don't think referring to any tranquil as a "mindless automaton" is correct.

[LobselVith8]

phaonica wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I originally wrote that there's no evidence that the templars have any rights over civilians. What makes me doubt that the templars have the legal right to kill civilians is that the templars right to kill runaway mages depends on whether they are apostates or maleficarum, so I don't see how templars would have the right to kill defenseless civilians when a Circle mage is supposed to be brought back to the Circle Tower even if he (or she) has gone apostate (like Anders, who was brought back seven times after becoming an apostate).

The Templars' right to punish civilians seems to depend on if those civilians are harboring apostates, which seems to be a crime under Chantry law.

Which happens to be what King Alistair is doing in Ferelden with apostates.

phaonica wrote...

However, there also seems to be conflicting information on how exactly Chantry law works:

No matter how a mage has become apostate, the Chantry treats them alike: Templars begin a systematic hunt to bring the apostate to justice. In almost all cases, "justice" is execution. If there is some overriding reason the mage should live, the Rite of Tranquility is employed instead. Whether we of the Circle of Magi believe this system fair is irrelevant: It is what it is. --From Patterns Within Form, by Halden, First Enchanter of Starkhaven, 8:80 Blessed. (Codex entry: Apostates)

Except Gaider has said mages that run away are brought back (which is why Anders wasn't killed and what The Warden asks Wynne about why Aneirin wasn't simply brought back) or killed if they are maleficarum (which is what Aneirin was accused of as a fourteen year old boy).