2340 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Silentblaze wrote...

Do I kill Anders? Nope.

I did the same thing as my Landsmeet decision in DAO. I told to one (Alistair/ Sebastian) to leave and go run his kingdom and told the other (Loghain/ Anders) to help me to make up for his screw ups.

I did that, too, but in Origins you get to tell Loghain that you think he's scum and you just want him to die usefully.  You can also see that he does die in the battle, by refusing the DR.  I never got that chance with Anders.  He assumes you're supporting his cause if you save the mages, and there's no opportunity to disabuse him of the notion, nor to take him out after the battle so that he doesn't go on blowing up other buildings.

[Monica21]

Wulfram wrote...
So your theory is what?  She never met any Templar or Mage ever except for Ser Alrik?  Or that Ser Cullen, Orsino and every other mage and templar in Kirkwall just ignored the blatantly obvious presence of illegally tranquilled mages?

First, what makes you think the presence of tranquil mages has grown exponentially to the point where it's impossible to notice? There's no evidence to assume it's mass numbers of mages. Second, what makes you think the Templars share their plans? If I knew a mage who had become Tranquil my first assumption would be that the Templars were following orders or that the mage in question was planning something illegal, especially if the mage had confided as such to me.

In any case, I don't see any cause to believe that there is suddenly going to be a "blatantly obvious" presence of Tranquils.

[phaonica]

LobselVith8 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

The Templars' right to punish civilians seems to depend on if those civilians are harboring apostates, which seems to be a crime under Chantry law.

Which happens to be what King Alistair is doing in Ferelden with apostates.

What's your point? That Alistair wouldn't break Chantry law, so it must not be one? Or that if it is a law, Alistair is breaking it?

LobselVith8 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

However, there also seems to be conflicting information on how exactly Chantry law works:

Except Gaider has said mages that run away are brought back (which is why Anders wasn't killed and what The Warden asks Wynne about why Aneirin wasn't simply brought back) or killed if they are maleficarum (which is what Aneirin was accused of as a fourteen year old boy).

That still doesn't make any of it "law" in a sense of a strict standard of what constitutes a crime and what is the standard proper punishment. I'm not sure how much that idea of "law" even applies to the institutions in Thedas that we've seen so far. "Laws" seem more like guidelines, and they hardly seem standardized.

edit: hours later, I catch a spelling mistake

Modifié par phaonica, 17 septembre 2011 - 04:15 .

[maxernst]

Wulfram wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Again. There are already many tranquilled mages in the Circle.. They aren't neccesarily going to notice a few more. Furthermore, all Templars do not report to Meredith. The normal Templars would report to their lieutenant, which would report to the captain, and then to Meredith.

The people, Templar and Mage, who know this person are going to notice that she is now a mindless automoton walking about saying how she belongs to Ser Alrik.

And if her organisation is set up so that no one, Templar or Mage, can report that Ser Alrik has tranquilled someone without Ser Alrik blocking it, then she has failed in her duties to an astonishing degree.

The mages have, in fact, noticed that the number of Tranquils has increased and are talking about it in the Gallows Courtyard, IIRC.   And while Tranquil's aren't mindless, one could hardly fail to notice the change if someone you knew had become tranquil.  Also, doesn't making somebody tranquil require a significant amount of lyrium?  Given its importance, and the fact that it's controlled by the Chantry, one would think that there would be detailed records kept on its use.  Although I suppose he could be using smuggled lyrium, which might account for his wandering through the tunnels where you meet Ella.

[EmperorSahlertz]

If Alrik is the Templar in charge of the using of the Rite, he wouldn't even have to file the report.

[Monica21]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If Alrik is the Templar in charge of the using of the Rite, he wouldn't even have to file the report.

Why not? I have things I have to do in my job and I still have to tell my boss that I did them.

[Carmen_Willow]

I am not trying to troll, but I just want to state an old cliche about this whole Anders thing. Here we go: Two wrongs don't make a right!

The Templars in DA 2 are evil, wicked, terrible and picking on the poor mages. They are committing great wrongs! No doubt! They are evil B**tards and I side with the mages. I would work to get them away from this Circle and to somewhere else more sane.

But blowing up people in a church, however much you hate that church and want to use its destruction to start a war is just as wrong! I didn't see any Right come out of that decision. I see fear and destruction and death and blood and war and chaos. Anders just wanted the rest of Thedas to be as miserable as he was.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

[Urzon]

maxernst wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Again. There are already many tranquilled mages in the Circle.. They aren't neccesarily going to notice a few more. Furthermore, all Templars do not report to Meredith. The normal Templars would report to their lieutenant, which would report to the captain, and then to Meredith.

The people, Templar and Mage, who know this person are going to notice that she is now a mindless automoton walking about saying how she belongs to Ser Alrik.

And if her organisation is set up so that no one, Templar or Mage, can report that Ser Alrik has tranquilled someone without Ser Alrik blocking it, then she has failed in her duties to an astonishing degree.

The mages have, in fact, noticed that the number of Tranquils has increased and are talking about it in the Gallows Courtyard, IIRC.   And while Tranquil's aren't mindless, one could hardly fail to notice the change if someone you knew had become tranquil.  Also, doesn't making somebody tranquil require a significant amount of lyrium?  Given its importance, and the fact that it's controlled by the Chantry, one would think that there would be detailed records kept on its use.  Although I suppose he could be using smuggled lyrium, which might account for his wandering through the tunnels where you meet Ella.

Lets not forget the big sun that gets branded onto their forehead with lyrium, it's really hard to miss those.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Monica21 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If Alrik is the Templar in charge of the using of the Rite, he wouldn't even have to file the report.

Why not? I have things I have to do in my job and I still have to tell my boss that I did them.

I was talking about that if he wanted to keep it from Meredith, and if he was the Templar in charge of the Rite's usage, all he would have to do, was not file the report. Or just file a falsified report.

[Vit246]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

I am not trying to troll, but I just want to state an old cliche about this whole Anders thing. Here we go: Two wrongs don't make a right!

The Templars in DA 2 are evil, wicked, terrible and picking on the poor mages. They are committing great wrongs! No doubt! They are evil B**tards and I side with the mages. I would work to get them away from this Circle and to somewhere else more sane.

But blowing up people in a church, however much you hate that church and want to use its destruction to start a war is just as wrong! I didn't see any Right come out of that decision. I see fear and destruction and death and blood and war and chaos. Anders just wanted the rest of Thedas to be as miserable as he was.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

You are making the mistake of equating the chantry with a real-world church. That "church" was one of the many symbols of a religious institution that has been practically oppressing mages and indoctrinating an entire continent to fear and hate them for a thousand years. Those thousand years were practically already a war for the mages, started by the chantry. It does not stand for peace or love or tolerance or anything of the sort. Anders hated that "church" for a good reason. And the people who died in there were the clergy and the templars, both of who are exactly responsible for the whole mage situation. No civilians were in the chantry and nothing in the game suggests there were any at the time it exploded, considering that the chantry is closed to the public at night. They were never his target at all. And what Anders wanted was to force the Mage Circles to fight and free themselves from the Chantry with their Templar armies and make Thedas see that the current Circle system under the Chantry did not work. Violence was unfortunately the only answer left.

EDIT:
What Anders wanted was to force a final confrontation between the mages and the chantry/templars. Force the mages to either fight or die. The "die" part would be no different than under the chantry system where mages were already dying by the sword or Tranquility.

Modifié par Vit246, 18 septembre 2011 - 07:28 .

[Addai]

Anders has no right to decide that for other people. Why should anyone other than mages care about their problems? How about the people he healed in Lowtown? Was he thinking of them when he sent fire and blood into the streets? The argument that the Chantry held no innocents- even if it's true- is moot. He wanted to start a war, the bomb was only the first step.

[LobselVith8]

phaonica wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Which happens to be what King Alistair is doing in Ferelden with apostates.

What's your point? That Alistair wouldn't break Chantry law, so it must not be one? Or that if it is a law, Alistair is breaking it?

Considering that you seem to think it's an automatic death sentence, I'd imagine that Meredith would have made a bigger deal out of it if that was the case.

phaonica wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except Gaider has said mages that run away are brought back (which is why Anders wasn't killed and what The Warden asks Wynne about why Aneirin wasn't simply brought back) or killed if they are maleficarum (which is what Aneirin was accused of as a fourteen year old boy).

That still doesn't make any of it "law" in a sense of a strict standard of what constitutes a crime and what is the standard proper punishment. I'm not sure how much that idea of "law" even applies to the institutions in Thedas that we've seen so far. "Laws" seem more like guidelines, and they hardly seem standardized.

The fact that the templars couldn't kill Anders simply for running away seems pretty cut and dry to me.

[DoNotIngest]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

DoNotIngest wrote...

Also, killing mage companions is a tad bit of a bad habit that I really don't want to pick up, given Merrill & Bethany.

Bethany? Sure. But killing Merrill early on would've saved a lot of trouble.

Sure. And killing Varric would have meant no dirty stories and a lot less gossiping about you, killing Isabela would mean no BS with the Qunari, and killing your mother would have meant saving you time walking all the way through a sewer to find her body.


urpointbro?

Modifié par DoNotIngest, 17 septembre 2011 - 07:42 .

[esper]

Addai67 wrote...

Anders has no right to decide that for other people. Why should anyone other than mages care about their problems? How about the people he healed in Lowtown? Was he thinking of them when he sent fire and blood into the streets? The argument that the Chantry held no innocents- even if it's true- is moot. He wanted to start a war, the bomb was only the first step.

Well, 1000 years of trying to talk into a peacefull solotion didn't work, Why should the mages accept the treatment they got? What did the people he healed for free do for him and his cause? 
The war is brutal to the current mages and the civilian caught in the cross-fire, but someone had to take a stand at some point, a 1000 years from now the mages will have it better in Thedas. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

There is no evidence of the Circle ever having amde any concentrated effort to try and emancipate themselves. Ever. All they've got are the Libertarian, which are not a majority. They are the only ones who have ever argued for their own "freedom". But since they've never had a majority in the Circle before, tehre have obviously never been a desire from the mages to be free.

It does speak volumes, that when the mages actually did wish to be free, they turned to violence.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There is no evidence of the Circle ever having amde any concentrated effort to try and emancipate themselves. Ever. All they've got are the Libertarian, which are not a majority. They are the only ones who have ever argued for their own "freedom". But since they've never had a majority in the Circle before, tehre have obviously never been a desire from the mages to be free.

It does speak volumes, that when the mages actually did wish to be free, they turned to violence.

The Libertarians have recently acquired the support of the Aequitarians. There are also the Isolationists, who have a similar philosophy to the Libertarians, though it differs on some things. The Isolationists wish to be free of the Chantry and Templars just as much as the Libertarians, but they also just want to become hermits.

Loyalists are by their very nature loyal, though loyalty can change depending on certain events. So it's up in the air whether all of the Loyalists are still loyal or if they switched to a new faction, though there will undoubtedly be some that are fiercely loyal to the Chantry and Rogue Templars.

Lucrosians can go either way I guess since they want money, and both factions could give them money.

So you have 3 Fraternities that all wish to be free, along with maybe some wild cards from the other 2 fraternities.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 17 septembre 2011 - 09:05 .

[Wulfram]

The Aequitarians oppose Chantry control too. They just think they've got more chance of getting freedom if they behave themselves, and recognise the need for regulation.

[Monica21]

Wulfram wrote...

The Aequitarians oppose Chantry control too. They just think they've got more chance of getting freedom if they behave themselves, and recognise the need for regulation.

So, basically there's been a lot of this going on: 

Edited to add that believing you should have freedom does equate to making an effort to emancipate yourselves.

Modifié par Monica21, 17 septembre 2011 - 09:13 .

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If Alrik is the Templar in charge of the using of the Rite, he wouldn't even have to file the report.

Why not? I have things I have to do in my job and I still have to tell my boss that I did them.

I was talking about that if he wanted to keep it from Meredith, and if he was the Templar in charge of the Rite's usage, all he would have to do, was not file the report. Or just file a falsified report.

Hillarious that the templar suppporters rather paint the templars as incompetent then having any evil intent. But being a manager myself i will tell you this. What you say is bull****. In my department their are plenty of controls (to remove errors but it can also be used to detect fraud) . And its not  that you can do away with a tranquil mage. If a new tranquil mage was created people will talk making falisified reports pointless.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Mhm... And I'm guessing you are using local network and computers to help with that....

[Addai]

esper wrote...
Well, 1000 years of trying to talk into a peacefull solotion didn't work, Why should the mages accept the treatment they got? What did the people he healed for free do for him and his cause? 
The war is brutal to the current mages and the civilian caught in the cross-fire, but someone had to take a stand at some point, a 1000 years from now the mages will have it better in Thedas. 

Yeah.  Whatever.  They could also have it worse, since their self-appointed savior vindicated every mage-hating prejudice more handily than the Chantry could have managed on its own.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There is no evidence of the Circle ever having amde any concentrated effort to try and emancipate themselves. Ever. All they've got are the Libertarian, which are not a majority. They are the only ones who have ever argued for their own "freedom". But since they've never had a majority in the Circle before, tehre have obviously never been a desire from the mages to be free.

It does speak volumes, that when the mages actually did wish to be free, they turned to violence.

It speaks volumes of the chantry not of the mages. Furthermore the Aequitarians where pushed right into Libertarian arms because of meredith. So the templars are to blame for the violence now directed against them.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


It does speak volumes, that when the mages actually did wish to be free, they turned to violence.

Of course it does. Violence works, and seems to be the only message the Chantry understands. It seems only recently the mages have figured this out.

But then again, violence has solved alot of problems. As the blood mage in the Circle pointed out, Andraste didn't send a strongly worded letter to the imperium. She gathered an army and waged war to free everyone. The orlesian occupation of Ferelden was only ended through violence.

So I don't see what the problem is here. Violence is about the only thing that seems to work. And it is an acceptable means of solving problems in Thedas.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Mhm... And I'm guessing you are using local network and computers to help with that....

Ofcourse i have recalculate their quotations . But i also talk to my people so i know whats going on on the workfloor. That is something you do not have to do with computers and its inexcusable that meredith seems to know so little whats going on. If i was knight commander i would at least talk to the senior mages every week.

[Monica21]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


It does speak volumes, that when the mages actually did wish to be free, they turned to violence.

Of course it does. Violence works, and seems to be the only message the Chantry understands. It seems only recently the mages have figured this out.

But then again, violence has solved alot of problems. As the blood mage in the Circle pointed out, Andraste didn't send a strongly worded letter to the imperium. She gathered an army and waged war to free everyone. The orlesian occupation of Ferelden was only ended through violence.

So I don't see what the problem is here. Violence is about the only thing that seems to work. And it is an acceptable means of solving problems in Thedas.

The only problem I have is how violence is used. We don't see anything of the Libertarians or really hear anything of people within the Circle trying to negotiate more freedoms. There's the meeting Wynne was going to, but we don't hear the results of that. What we see are apostates and blood mages who say mages should be free, but are really just trying to free themselves. The only thing they're doing is proving the Chantry right about the dangers of mages who aren't under Circle control, and then Anders happens. Anders, who is barely holding it together by this point whether you friend or rival him, blows **** up, kills people, and decides that he's the cause of a mage rebellion. It doesn't have anything to do with the Circle or the people who are actually in the Circle. It's the actions of a near-insane apostate. 

And Tevinter still has slaves, so even Andraste's war didn't free them. She just weakened the empire and made herself a martyr.