2340 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Andraste did free a lot of slaves. She was unable to destroy Tevinter, but I don't think the mages here need to destroy the Chantry either. And the nonviolent means of separation seem to end only in repeated failure; additionally, if the Chantry really does see mage resistance as proving them right, they're myopic idiots with no understanding of cause and effect.

[DKJaigen]

Addai67 wrote...

esper wrote...
Well, 1000 years of trying to talk into a peacefull solotion didn't work, Why should the mages accept the treatment they got? What did the people he healed for free do for him and his cause? 
The war is brutal to the current mages and the civilian caught in the cross-fire, but someone had to take a stand at some point, a 1000 years from now the mages will have it better in Thedas. 

Yeah.  Whatever.  They could also have it worse, since their self-appointed savior vindicated every mage-hating prejudice more handily than the Chantry could have managed on its own.

Let them. In fact it works in favor for the mages. You see the Chantry has for so long used the fear of mages to control the common population that they have mystified the mages. The common population believe the mages are some horrifying boogey man. The only thing the mages have to do is to become that boogeyman by applying excessive force at start of the war. When terror starts to get its grip on the peasants then they will surrender to the mages.

[HiroVoid]

DKJaigen wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

esper wrote...
Well, 1000 years of trying to talk into a peacefull solotion didn't work, Why should the mages accept the treatment they got? What did the people he healed for free do for him and his cause? 
The war is brutal to the current mages and the civilian caught in the cross-fire, but someone had to take a stand at some point, a 1000 years from now the mages will have it better in Thedas. 

Yeah.  Whatever.  They could also have it worse, since their self-appointed savior vindicated every mage-hating prejudice more handily than the Chantry could have managed on its own.

Let them. In fact it works in favor for the mages. You see the Chantry has for so long used the fear of mages to control the common population that they have mystified the mages. The common population believe the mages are some horrifying boogey man. The only thing the mages have to do is to become that boogeyman by applying excessive force at start of the war. When terror starts to get its grip on the peasants then they will surrender to the mages.

That didn't stop people from fighting darkspawn, and there were (true)rumors of them eating people alive.

Modifié par HiroVoid, 17 septembre 2011 - 11:20 .

[Addai]

DKJaigen wrote...
Let them. In fact it works in favor for the mages. You see the Chantry has for so long used the fear of mages to control the common population that they have mystified the mages. The common population believe the mages are some horrifying boogey man. The only thing the mages have to do is to become that boogeyman by applying excessive force at start of the war. When terror starts to get its grip on the peasants then they will surrender to the mages.

Refreshing in its honesty, at least.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Monica21 wrote...


The only problem I have is how violence is used. We don't see anything of the Libertarians or really hear anything of people within the Circle trying to negotiate more freedoms. There's the meeting Wynne was going to, but we don't hear the results of that. What we see are apostates and blood mages who say mages should be free, but are really just trying to free themselves. The only thing they're doing is proving the Chantry right about the dangers of mages who aren't under Circle control, and then Anders happens. Anders, who is barely holding it together by this point whether you friend or rival him, blows **** up, kills people, and decides that he's the cause of a mage rebellion. It doesn't have anything to do with the Circle or the people who are actually in the Circle. It's the actions of a near-insane apostate.

Anders bombing wasn't a brilliant plan, I agree. I would have used other means, more underhanded and secretive means, like destroying and corrupting the templars and Chantry from within. But regardless, even if it was hamfisted and foolish on Anders part, his bomb still worked for the purposes he desired for it.

As far as mages "negotiating" their freedom from the Chantry, we have two examples of why this does not work. In the codex of the Circle formation, we had a divine who wanted to call an exalted march on her own catherdral because the mages had barricaded themselves in. We also have the epilogue/mage boon in Origins where Gaider pointed out that even if the monarch grants the Circle its Freedom, the Chantry blows them off and says no.

Generally, slaves or subjugated people throughout history did not win their freedom by negotiating, and the Chantry has shown itself an organization not open to negotiation. I'm willing to bet more "peaceful" methods have been tried in the past. We are talking about 1000 years of Circle history, and we have no codexes on much outside of Ferelden and Kirkwall.

Beyond the mages, the Chantry has shown that it is not an organization that negotiates very well, given their fondness of calling an exalted march for every problem that comes up. Tevinter got their own Chantry? Call an exalted march. Qunari pissing you off? Call and exalted march. Elves not converting? Call an exalted march. Dwarves build their own independant Circle? Call an exalted march. Dwarves kill Burkel? Call an exalted March. Kirkwall out of control because of an idiot templar commander? Call an exalted march.

Like I said, the Chantry only seem to understand the language of violence.

And Tevinter still has slaves, so even Andraste's war didn't free them. She just weakened the empire and made herself a martyr.

Andraste freed most of Thedas, and freed enough elves that they were able to form their own homeland. Given that the Tevinter had enslaved damned near all of Thedas, I'd say she freed alot of people. Tevinter is a fraction of its former size, a shadow of itself, and on the wane. So she did alot more than weaken the empire. All the nations of thedas would not exist today were it not for her war.

[Giggles_Manically]

"It is better to be feared than loved, if you can not be both"- Niccolo Machiavelli

He ALSO says that you should be careful and not use fear to much and become HATED.
Sure fear is a handy thing.

Use it to much and people will be more than willing to horribly murder you.
Mages if they earn the HATRED of people will be annihilated by angry mob after angry mob coming after their blood.

The average mage is not Warden/Hawke level and will get killed through sheer attrition in open war.
But they if they just believe hard enough they can accomplish anything!

[DKJaigen]

Monica21 wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


It does speak volumes, that when the mages actually did wish to be free, they turned to violence.

Of course it does. Violence works, and seems to be the only message the Chantry understands. It seems only recently the mages have figured this out.

But then again, violence has solved alot of problems. As the blood mage in the Circle pointed out, Andraste didn't send a strongly worded letter to the imperium. She gathered an army and waged war to free everyone. The orlesian occupation of Ferelden was only ended through violence.

So I don't see what the problem is here. Violence is about the only thing that seems to work. And it is an acceptable means of solving problems in Thedas.

The only problem I have is how violence is used. We don't see anything of the Libertarians or really hear anything of people within the Circle trying to negotiate more freedoms. There's the meeting Wynne was going to, but we don't hear the results of that. What we see are apostates and blood mages who say mages should be free, but are really just trying to free themselves. The only thing they're doing is proving the Chantry right about the dangers of mages who aren't under Circle control, and then Anders happens. Anders, who is barely holding it together by this point whether you friend or rival him, blows **** up, kills people, and decides that he's the cause of a mage rebellion. It doesn't have anything to do with the Circle or the people who are actually in the Circle. It's the actions of a near-insane apostate. 

And Tevinter still has slaves, so even Andraste's war didn't free them. She just weakened the empire and made herself a martyr.

Anders actions are not important. He was a spark on heap of dry kindling but if not him then somebody else would have began the conflict. The concern should be why all the mage circles rebel. Well the answer is simple. They are controlled by corrupt , incompetent idiotic templar order. And why do do the templars exist? To keep the chantry in power and despite of claims otherwise are not their for the good of the common people. For i never seen mages contribute to their society. You dont see mages aiding inhealing the sick or using their skills to help with contruction or farming. And why not? because would suddenly liek the mages and the chantry would lose its power. So is support this war. Not only for the mages but also for the common people.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

"It is better to be feared than loved, if you can not be both"- Niccolo Machiavelli

He ALSO says that you should be careful and not use fear to much and become HATED.
Sure fear is a handy thing.

Use it to much and people will be more than willing to horribly murder you.
Mages if they earn the HATRED of people will be annihilated by angry mob after angry mob coming after their blood.

The average mage is not Warden/Hawke level and will get killed through sheer attrition in open war.
But they if they just believe hard enough they can accomplish anything!

This would apply to the templars as well. And if meredith is anything to go by, templars are more than capable of the type of extremist behavior that will alienate supporters as surely as blood mages will.

[Giggles_Manically]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

"It is better to be feared than loved, if you can not be both"- Niccolo Machiavelli

He ALSO says that you should be careful and not use fear to much and become HATED.
Sure fear is a handy thing.

Use it to much and people will be more than willing to horribly murder you.
Mages if they earn the HATRED of people will be annihilated by angry mob after angry mob coming after their blood.

The average mage is not Warden/Hawke level and will get killed through sheer attrition in open war.
But they if they just believe hard enough they can accomplish anything!

This would apply to the templars as well. And if meredith is anything to go by, templars are more than capable of the type of extremist behavior that will alienate supporters as surely as blood mages will.

It holds true to anyone.

Outside of Kirkwall we dont see Templars pissing people off that much. Depends on what happens in the novel, but as of know I dont see the mages winning anything beyond a quick death.

That is if EVERY mage went to war, and some just dont run off and hide, or stay as a loyalist party (Wynne) 

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Mhm... And I'm guessing you are using local network and computers to help with that....

Ofcourse i have recalculate their quotations . But i also talk to my people so i know whats going on on the workfloor. That is something you do not have to do with computers and its inexcusable that meredith seems to know so little whats going on. If i was knight commander i would at least talk to the senior mages every week.

And if the people you talk to have been coerced to silence, and the reports are being falsified? Then exactly how are you to know anything?
Given the sheer size of the Templar Order in Kirkwall, and on top of that a Circle, there are hundreds of different issues that Meredith needs to keep on top of. And that is without the aid of computers. It is completely understandable actually that something as miniscule as a few more tranquils than usual slips udner the radar, since there are more pressing matters to take care of. Like loose blood mages and abominations, and whatnot.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

It holds true to anyone.

Outside of Kirkwall we dont see Templars pissing people off that much. Depends on what happens in the novel, but as of know I dont see the mages winning anything beyond a quick death.

That is if EVERY mage went to war, and some just dont run off and hide, or stay as a loyalist party (Wynne) 

Depending on who and how the mages fight, a quick death seems unlikely, especially if their numbers are increasing as it has been hinted at.

And the templars have certainly pissed off people outside Kirkwall. I remember a pre-origins comic showing the extreme and unselective tendancies of templars to shoot first, ask questions later. With an open mage revolt, I think the templars tendancy towards extreme behavior shall increase, and they will end up pissing off alot of people, especially when they start killing people they suspect are mages, or suspect might support them.

Religion addled drug addicts have tendancies of their own towards extreme or excessive behavior.

[DKJaigen]

HiroVoid wrote...


That didn't stop people from fighting darkspawn, and there were (true)rumors of them eating people alive.

True but its still only a monster with a sword and shield. Now picture yourself in a army that faces a mage tower. You know little of this enemy. Before you know it several fireballs slam into the battleline killing hundreds of your mates in seconds. Fireballs rain from the sky the ground beneath you shudders because the mages use earthquake spells. Your mind is assaulted by spirit energies and your own mates turn against you while demons claw out of the ground near you. Do you know what you will be doing? You will be ****ting bricks

[Monica21]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Beyond the mages, the Chantry has shown that it is not an organization that negotiates very well, given their fondness of calling an exalted march for every problem that comes up. Tevinter got their own Chantry? Call an exalted march. Qunari pissing you off? Call and exalted march. Elves not converting? Call an exalted march. Dwarves build their own independant Circle? Call an exalted march. Dwarves kill Burkel? Call an exalted March. Kirkwall out of control because of an idiot templar commander? Call an exalted march.

That's an oversimplification of why the marches were called. The only reason the Qunari haven't taken over more than Par Vollen is because of the Chantry's Exalted Marches. I'm pretty sure negotiation wasn't working, what with their insistance on conquering and all. The marches against Tevinter were holy wars and weakened their empire. And there never were any marches against Orzammar or because of Brother Burkel. The Dalish bit is still too fuzzy to know what was actually happening. Maybe they really were offering human sacrifices.

Like I said, the Chantry only seem to understand the language of violence.

That's because we've never been given evidence that anyone tried to negotiate. You can't just talk among your Libertarian group about freeing yourself. Welcome to the echo chamber. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...


That didn't stop people from fighting darkspawn, and there were (true)rumors of them eating people alive.

True but its still only a monster with a sword and shield. Now picture yourself in a army that faces a mage tower. You know little of this enemy. Before you know it several fireballs slam into the battleline killing hundreds of your mates in seconds. Fireballs rain from the sky the ground beneath you shudders because the mages use earthquake spells. Your mind is assaulted by spirit energies and your own mates turn against you while demons claw out of the ground near you. Do you know what you will be doing? You will be ****ting bricks

And then imagine the heroic Templars striding forward, dispersing the wicked mages magic and inspiring you to move forward, in spite of the dangers, for a safer world. In the meantime, the extensive use of magic, has caused the mages to attract demons, and they are starting to fall victim to possessions. The mages, totally inexperienced in fighting Abominations are falling like flies, but the Templars, all experienced in such matters, protect you and your fellows.

If mages actually go full retard, and start to try and inspire fear in people, they will only make the Templars even more heroic, which will make the people rally to the Templars.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 17 septembre 2011 - 11:54 .

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Mhm... And I'm guessing you are using local network and computers to help with that....

Ofcourse i have recalculate their quotations . But i also talk to my people so i know whats going on on the workfloor. That is something you do not have to do with computers and its inexcusable that meredith seems to know so little whats going on. If i was knight commander i would at least talk to the senior mages every week.

And if the people you talk to have been coerced to silence, and the reports are being falsified? Then exactly how are you to know anything?
Given the sheer size of the Templar Order in Kirkwall, and on top of that a Circle, there are hundreds of different issues that Meredith needs to keep on top of. And that is without the aid of computers. It is completely understandable actually that something as miniscule as a few more tranquils than usual slips udner the radar, since there are more pressing matters to take care of. Like loose blood mages and abominations, and whatnot.

1. For your first question its simple you will notice a lack of quality which gives corruption away.
2. I find this a bit funny because your arguing with a manager. Size is not a problem simply standarise your process. If tha takes to much time hire an assistant. Furthermore you never have a 100 hundred issues. Usually you only 4-5 issues each week. And mate remember that for several thousand years we havent used computer and yet we have 200 hundred years of extensive industrie without the aid of computers. If all managers CEO and chefs run their company's as bad we all would be farmers by now.

[EmperorSahlertz]

We've also had several thousands years of extensive corruption within organizations and companies... So I honestly don't see why Meredith is a special case for not seeing it. Especially not when what she is suppsoed to see, was nothing worth noting in the first place.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Monica21 wrote...


That's an oversimplification of why the marches were called. The only reason the Qunari haven't taken over more than Par Vollen is because of the Chantry's Exalted Marches. I'm pretty sure negotiation wasn't working, what with their insistance on conquering and all. The marches against Tevinter were holy wars and weakened their empire. And there never were any marches against Orzammar or because of Brother Burkel. The Dalish bit is still too fuzzy to know what was actually happening. Maybe they really were offering human sacrifices.

The Chantry marched into Rivain and slaughtered the human and elven Qun converts. The Qunari haven't overrun Thedas because of magic, a force they simply are too paranopid to use in its fullest. The March on tevinter was a holy war, that's kind of my point. The marches on Orzammar are talked about in the epilogue, where the divine is considering it (though given events, unlikely to pursue because of lack of resources). As far as the Dalish go, who cares if they were offering human sacrifices or not (I highly doubt it, as it's a time honored tool of propganda). Within their own borders, it's their biz, not the Chantry's.

The Chantry is as bad as the qunari in their desire to assimilate and conquor, given their belief the Chant must be sung from all corners of the world. All their wars are "holy wars". In otherwords, idiotic. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar, something the Chantry hasn't figured out yet.

That's because we've never been given evidence that anyone tried to negotiate. You can't just talk among your Libertarian group about freeing yourself. Welcome to the echo chamber. 

How do slaves and prisoners negotiate with a master/overlord that lives by dogma and superstition over reason and logic? Talking amongst themselves is the limit of power the mages have. Anything else, the Chantry cracks down. And as I said before, even a monarch can't get the Chantry to bend.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...


That didn't stop people from fighting darkspawn, and there were (true)rumors of them eating people alive.

True but its still only a monster with a sword and shield. Now picture yourself in a army that faces a mage tower. You know little of this enemy. Before you know it several fireballs slam into the battleline killing hundreds of your mates in seconds. Fireballs rain from the sky the ground beneath you shudders because the mages use earthquake spells. Your mind is assaulted by spirit energies and your own mates turn against you while demons claw out of the ground near you. Do you know what you will be doing? You will be ****ting bricks

And then imagine the heroic Templars striding forward, dispersing the wicked mages magic and inspiring you to move forward, in spite of the dangers, for a safer world. In the meantime, the extensive use of magic, has caused the mages to attract demons, and they are starting to fall victim to possessions. The mages, totally inexperienced in fighting Abominations are falling like flies, but the Templars, all experienced in such matters, protect you and your fellows.

If mages actually go full retard, and start to try and inspire fear in people, they will only make the Templars even more heroic, which will make the people rally to the Templars.

The templars? you mean the lyrium addicted templars? The only thing the mages have to do is to knock out the trade supplies of lyrium from orzamar. Then the people get the first hand experience of templars in lyrium withdrawal and the result will be glorious

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

We've also had several thousands years of extensive corruption within organizations and companies... So I honestly don't see why Meredith is a special case for not seeing it. Especially not when what she is suppsoed to see, was nothing worth noting in the first place.

And this causes bankruptcy or people get fired. In all cases the problem fixes itself. But in some cases this is not an option. Thats why most countries have agency's to watch over our police because corruption in such institution will result in people dying. Same goes for the templars . In this case the bankruptcy of the templar order resulted in the mage-templar war.

[EmperorSahlertz]

So the mages should attack Orzammar aswell now? Cause that is the only way Orzammar is going to stop trading.

[Monica21]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
The Chantry marched into Rivain and slaughtered the human and elven Qun converts. The Qunari haven't overrun Thedas because of magic, a force they simply are too paranopid to use in its fullest.

Well, sure. If a bunch of converts were trying to conquer my land because of the Qun I'd kill them too. According to the Llomerryn Accords codex entry the converts were killed because they refused to leave their homes, which was part of the treaty. 

The March on tevinter was a holy war, that's kind of my point. The marches on Orzammar are talked about in the epilogue, where the divine is considering it (though given events, unlikely to pursue because of lack of resources). As far as the Dalish go, who cares if they were offering human sacrifices or not (I highly doubt it, as it's a time honored tool of propganda). Within their own borders, it's their biz, not the Chantry's.

I'm disregarding holy wars because there's really no room for negotiation. I guess it was basically, "Yay! Have a day of celebration because the Divine is dead!" And then war. That's kind of how holy wars go. As for the dwarves, if we're going to go with what Gaider said, then the epilogues are treated as rumors and hearsay. There's no evidence that they ever talked about an Exalted March against Orzammar. If the Dalish are kidnapping humans and sacrificing them, then I would say it's certainly someone's business.

How do slaves and prisoners negotiate with a master/overlord that lives by dogma and superstition over reason and logic? Talking amongst themselves is the limit of power the mages have. Anything else, the Chantry cracks down. And as I said before, even a monarch can't get the Chantry to bend.

All we know is that the monarch asked if the Circle can be free and the Divine said no. Of course she's going to say no. That's not an in-between or any kind of negotiation. You don't start with total freedom. Or you do and work backwards. All we know is that it was asked and denied and that was it. That's not starting with, say, mages having more freedom to leave the Circle without chaperones or allowing their families to visit. Where is the evidence that any of what was discussed at the conference Wynne attended got to the Divine? Where is the evidence of First Enchanters sitting down with Grand Clerics and saying, "You want this but we want this so how do we make this work?" There's none. There's a lot of evidence that groups within the Circle don't like Chantry control, but zero evidence that any of that went beyone that group.

It's easy to say that the Chantry understands violence but I can also say that's the only solution they've been given. And here we have another crazed apostate who violated a Chantry and the people inside and never actually talked to anyone about how to free mages. Seriously. I've seen sit-ins with more planning.

Modifié par Monica21, 18 septembre 2011 - 12:33 .

[Xilizhra]

It's easy to say that the Chantry understands violence but I can also say that's the only solution they've been given. And here we have another crazed apostate who violated a Chantry and the people inside and never actually talked to anyone about how to free mages. Seriously. I've seen sit-ins with more planning.

If the Chantry was capable of reason, I doubt it would have come to this. Especially since the Aequitarian majority in the Fraternities was initially allied with the Loyalists; they'd have been all about pleasant discussion with the Chantry... but as the years wore on, they changed sides to the Libertarians. This speaks volumes to me about how the Chantry's treatment of the mages and any attempts to alter it have gone.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So the mages should attack Orzammar aswell now? Cause that is the only way Orzammar is going to stop trading.

I said knockout the trade routes not attack orzammar smartass.

[ChaplainTappman]

 

Xilizhra wrote...
If the Chantry was capable of reason, I doubt it would have come to this. Especially since the Aequitarian majority in the Fraternities was initially allied with the Loyalists; they'd have been all about pleasant discussion with the Chantry... but as the years wore on, they changed sides to the Libertarians. This speaks volumes to me about how the Chantry's treatment of the mages and any attempts to alter it have gone.

I don't think it's that clear cut. We don't know if the Circles actually discussed a loosening of restrictions with the Chantry, or if they just argued amongst themselves. We don't know who they discussed it with, the Chantry or the templars, a distinction that has to be made. We don't know if the mages opened the discussions in good faith or not. I'm generally sympathetic to the mages, but you shouldn't assume that the mages are without blame. Neither side is (as an aside, I'm not sure it's completely accurate to describe it as mages vs. the Chantry).

DKJaigen wrote...

I said knockout the trade routes not attack orzammar smartass. 

Mages need lyrium, too. The dwarves are not going to trade with people cutting off other trade routes.

OT: I kill Anders every time.

Modifié par ChaplainTappman, 18 septembre 2011 - 01:04 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So the mages should attack Orzammar aswell now? Cause that is the only way Orzammar is going to stop trading.

I said knockout the trade routes not attack orzammar smartass.

An attack on the trade route would be an attack on Orzammar. Not the city itself, but the kingdom.