2340 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Monica21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

As for the mass murdering part, he chose nighttime to blow the Chantry and there are beds inside. Given that and the parts of the Chantry we don't see, one can assume it's used residentially as well. Nighttime would likely take the most lives because the Chantry Sisters would be there. I'm not sure what your definition of mass murder is, but there are at least seven people in the Chantry at the time of the explosion. It appears to be limited to the Grand Cleric, two Sisters, and some Templars.

The timing of this is extremely weird. It's broad daylight when Hawke enters the Gallows for the first time, appears to be early evening during Meredith's and Orsino's arguement, switches to late evening for the explosion, and is then full night during the final battle of the Gallows. I have no idea how this is supposed to work or what time is accurate, but I don't think you can draw any real conclusions.

That's how the sun works. It moves across the sky.

Thedas must have an extremely borked day-night cycle. I doubt it would take all day to get from the Gallows to Lowtown and back to the Gallows based on an Earthly cycle.

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

As for the mass murdering part, he chose nighttime to blow the Chantry and there are beds inside. Given that and the parts of the Chantry we don't see, one can assume it's used residentially as well. Nighttime would likely take the most lives because the Chantry Sisters would be there. I'm not sure what your definition of mass murder is, but there are at least seven people in the Chantry at the time of the explosion. It appears to be limited to the Grand Cleric, two Sisters, and some Templars.

The timing of this is extremely weird. It's broad daylight when Hawke enters the Gallows for the first time, appears to be early evening during Meredith's and Orsino's arguement, switches to late evening for the explosion, and is then full night during the final battle of the Gallows. I have no idea how this is supposed to work or what time is accurate, but I don't think you can draw any real conclusions.

That's how the sun works. It moves across the sky.

Thedas must have an extremely borked day-night cycle. I doubt it would take all day to get from the Gallows to Lowtown and back to the Gallows based on an Earthly cycle.

It would if you were a newcomer, but yea Hawke's been living in Kirkwall for 7 years so he shoud definitely know his way around the Kirkwall maze.

[esper]

Monica21 wrote...

esper wrote...

Or you can say that nighttime would take the least innocent lives as civilians were less likely to be praying inside the chantry.

Yes, but would be more likely to kill as many members of the Chantry as possible rather than civilians. I see a lot of Sisters walking around during the day but not many at night.

if you are really pro-mage sisters and brothers are not civilians, but rather part of the chantry. If I had the choice between aiming for the chantry people or aiming more civilians, I will choose the time of day that kills mostly chantry people and not so many civilians.

Modifié par esper, 18 septembre 2011 - 06:11 .

[Monica21]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

As for the mass murdering part, he chose nighttime to blow the Chantry and there are beds inside. Given that and the parts of the Chantry we don't see, one can assume it's used residentially as well. Nighttime would likely take the most lives because the Chantry Sisters would be there. I'm not sure what your definition of mass murder is, but there are at least seven people in the Chantry at the time of the explosion. It appears to be limited to the Grand Cleric, two Sisters, and some Templars.

The timing of this is extremely weird. It's broad daylight when Hawke enters the Gallows for the first time, appears to be early evening during Meredith's and Orsino's arguement, switches to late evening for the explosion, and is then full night during the final battle of the Gallows. I have no idea how this is supposed to work or what time is accurate, but I don't think you can draw any real conclusions.

That's how the sun works. It moves across the sky.

I think what Xilizhra is saying is that it shouldn't have taken that long. Considering that taking a ship from the Gallows leads to the Docks and the Docks lead to Lowtown, why was it early evening when he arrived when it wouldn't take a whole day to find them?

Now, best I can figure Hawke arrived at the Gallows in the early afternoon-early evening.

Yes, I know what she's saying. I just don't think it's relevant. But, it easily be late afternoon when you get to the Gallows. Anywhere you go from the Gallows is by boat, so then you have early evening (and tired arms from the rowing) and then the argument takes a bit and then it's dark out. It's game developer prerogative to make it night and yes, that's the time Anders chose to blow up the Chantry. He could have done it sooner or later but didn't.

[Melca36]

Celestina wrote...

I made a poll on this weeks ago...

http://social.biowar...73/polls/19398/

Interesting how 56 people let him live and 43 killed him.

My rogues kill him, my mages let him live.


Flemeth said the world is standing on the precipice of change...my mages always remember what she says.

I also think the Chantry is corrupt and hides alot of things and look forward to seeing those lies exposed and the citizens of Thedas questioning their faith in Dragon Age 3.

[EmperorSahlertz]

esper wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

esper wrote...

Or you can say that nighttime would take the least innocent lives as civilians were less likely to be praying inside the chantry.

Yes, but would be more likely to kill as many members of the Chantry as possible rather than civilians. I see a lot of Sisters walking around during the day but not many at night.

if you are really pro-mage sisters and brothers are not civilians, but rather part of the chantry. If I had the choice between aiming for the chantry people or aiming more civilians, I will choose the time of day that kills mostly chantry people and not so many civilians.

.... Really? You don't get much more civillian than being a priest. Especially not since the religion got its own military arm, which means the priesthood is entirely seperate from the military.
Also, said priestsesses are important to the civillians you are trying to protect, with all the kindness of your heart. I bet they will be oh so greatful once they realize you've just blown up their spiritual guides.

[Relix28]

Monica21 wrote...

Relix28 wrote...
I just think it's silly to assume that his plan was to cause mass murder of innocents. His plan and later his actions were definitelly morally questionable, a gray area as you said, but so is everything else that happens in that god forsaken city. I mean, there is nothing really solid that proves Anders' plan was to cause mass murder, just to cause mass murder. There isn't even any proof that there was a mass murder. On the other hand, it is clear what his intentions were. He wanted to start a rebellion, and that he did. If his actions were justified or not, is really up to the player to decide, and kinda besides the point here.

Well, I'm not sure exactly what his plan was, but he does say something about not allowing half-measures and an inference to a point of no return. His plan was to cause a destructive event that no one could look away from.

As for the mass murdering part, he chose nighttime to blow the Chantry and there are beds inside. Given that and the parts of the Chantry we don't see, one can assume it's used residentially as well. Nighttime would likely take the most lives because the Chantry Sisters would be there. I'm not sure what your definition of mass murder is, but there are at least seven people in the Chantry at the time of the explosion. It appears to be limited to the Grand Cleric, two Sisters, and some Templars. 

Assumptions are irrelvant here. One could assume that Flemeth came just before the explosion and plucked them all out of there,  just like the wardens in DA:O. The time of day is also irrelevant. He could have blown up the building during the day, when there was a sermon with hundereds of people in there.
My point is that there is nothing really solid within the game, that would imply that Anders just wanted to murder innocents. Considering how many he helped in his clinic would imply otherwise. Or.....maybe he actually turned all those people into abominations that you encounter later in the game. The assumption here is just as ridiculous as saying he was out for mass murder of innocents.

[EmperorSahlertz]

He did not want to murder innocents, yet his plan did invovle the murder of innocents. That is the whole point. Anders himself even admits to his crime and don't think that he should be allowed to live. He did not go out with a plan to kill as many civillians as possible. He went out with a plan about destroying an important symbol, to both the Chantry, but also the people of Thedas. His plan was to spread fear, for the sake of mage freedom. In short he fights for mage freedom, using terror tactics.
So as I said: One man's freedom fighter, is another man's terrorist.

[esper]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

esper wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

esper wrote...

Or you can say that nighttime would take the least innocent lives as civilians were less likely to be praying inside the chantry.

Yes, but would be more likely to kill as many members of the Chantry as possible rather than civilians. I see a lot of Sisters walking around during the day but not many at night.

if you are really pro-mage sisters and brothers are not civilians, but rather part of the chantry. If I had the choice between aiming for the chantry people or aiming more civilians, I will choose the time of day that kills mostly chantry people and not so many civilians.

.... Really? You don't get much more civillian than being a priest. Especially not since the religion got its own military arm, which means the priesthood is entirely seperate from the military.
Also, said priestsesses are important to the civillians you are trying to protect, with all the kindness of your heart. I bet they will be oh so greatful once they realize you've just blown up their spiritual guides.

The chantry is a military organisation so the priest are not civilians. Not ín the world of Thedas. And I don't want the gratitude of the civilians, if they came after me with pitchforkes and what weapon I would not hesistate to burn them down if I were a mage. I am just saying I wouldn't aim for them first, because there would really be no point in aiming for them, but there is a point in aiming for the chantry and its priest.

[Monica21]

Relix28 wrote...
Assumptions are irrelvant here. One could assume that Flemeth came just before the explosion and plucked them all out of there,  just like the wardens in DA:O.

Except you'd be wrong because you clearly see them in the Chantry as the beam shoots through the floor.

The time of day is also irrelevant. He could have blown up the building during the day, when there was a sermon with hundereds of people in there.

The time of day is determined by the developers. One can assume it's just happenstance that Meredith and Orsino are fighting at night or that it Anders chose to blow the Chantry at that time because it was night.

My point is that there is nothing really solid within the game that would imply that Anders just wanted to murder innocents.

That depends on who Anders considers to be innocents. 

Considering how many he helped in his clinic would imply otherwise. Or.....maybe he actually turned all those people into abominations that you encounter later in the game. The assumption here is just as ridiculous as saying he was out for mass murder of innocents.

I never said he was out for mass murder of innocents. I stated that there were seven people in the Chantry, all Sisters or Templars, and that's all. Again, it's what you do with the information you have. Some of it is going to be supportable and some conjecture based on personal experience and some good arguments just from an RP perspective. 

[Relix28]

Monica21 wrote...

Relix28 wrote...
Assumptions are irrelvant here. One could assume that Flemeth came just before the explosion and plucked them all out of there,  just like the wardens in DA:O.

Except you'd be wrong because you clearly see them in the Chantry as the beam shoots through the floor.

The time of day is also irrelevant. He could have blown up the building during the day, when there was a sermon with hundereds of people in there.

The time of day is determined by the developers. One can assume it's just happenstance that Meredith and Orsino are fighting at night or that it Anders chose to blow the Chantry at that time because it was night.

My point is that there is nothing really solid within the game that would imply that Anders just wanted to murder innocents.

That depends on who Anders considers to be innocents. 

Considering how many he helped in his clinic would imply otherwise. Or.....maybe he actually turned all those people into abominations that you encounter later in the game. The assumption here is just as ridiculous as saying he was out for mass murder of innocents.

I never said he was out for mass murder of innocents. I stated that there were seven people in the Chantry, all Sisters or Templars, and that's all. Again, it's what you do with the information you have. Some of it is going to be supportable and some conjecture based on personal experience and some good arguments just from an RP perspective. 

1. It's obvious they died. Sarcasm much?

2. The time of day is irrelevant. He blew up the chantry, some innocents died, Meredith invoked the RoA, end of story.

3. Again, missing the point.

4. No, you didn't say that, but this whole argument started when some other forum member implied so and mentioned shrapnel killing a bunch of people in Hightown lol. Jump back a page or two and see what I'm talking about.

Modifié par Relix28, 18 septembre 2011 - 07:00 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

esper wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

esper wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

esper wrote...

Or you can say that nighttime would take the least innocent lives as civilians were less likely to be praying inside the chantry.

Yes, but would be more likely to kill as many members of the Chantry as possible rather than civilians. I see a lot of Sisters walking around during the day but not many at night.

if you are really pro-mage sisters and brothers are not civilians, but rather part of the chantry. If I had the choice between aiming for the chantry people or aiming more civilians, I will choose the time of day that kills mostly chantry people and not so many civilians.

.... Really? You don't get much more civillian than being a priest. Especially not since the religion got its own military arm, which means the priesthood is entirely seperate from the military.
Also, said priestsesses are important to the civillians you are trying to protect, with all the kindness of your heart. I bet they will be oh so greatful once they realize you've just blown up their spiritual guides.

The chantry is a military organisation so the priest are not civilians. Not ín the world of Thedas. And I don't want the gratitude of the civilians, if they came after me with pitchforkes and what weapon I would not hesistate to burn them down if I were a mage. I am just saying I wouldn't aim for them first, because there would really be no point in aiming for them, but there is a point in aiming for the chantry and its priest.

So basically, if you were a mage, you would be one of the reason mages need to be kept in the Circles.

[ChaplainTappman]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

During Act 2, one sees Anders working in consort with the Mages Underground. A group, which under the active support of even the locals (I'm guessing common folk of Kirkwall), is attempting to help rebel mages flee Kirkwall. This movement kind of dies at the start of ACT 3, when templars are well and truly in control of Kirkwall, after Viscount Dumar dies and the City Guard loses numbers. The whole environment in Kirkwall changes, and I don't know what happens to the Underground - perhaps members caught and made tranquil? It is not because of nothing that Anders runs out of options. The issue with all this is that it is such a small part of the story, so as to go somewhat neglected. So, then, is one ought to think of Anders as a "freedom fighter" in ACT 2 and as a "terrorist" in ACT 3?

But you don't see a difference between helping mages flee Kirkwall, and choosing to shift to a violent path that directly causes the deaths of a great number of innocents? Anders' goals shift between acts, as he loses control of himself to Justice. So, yes, I do think there's a distinction between Anders in Act 2 and Anders in Act 3.

And there is the element of fusion of Justice and Anders, one having an influence upon the other. So where does one begin to blame Anders, and not Justice?

Irrelevant, in large part. Anders himself states that there's no real boundary between the two. They're the same being. But Justice should be considered. As I said earlier, it wasn't until Anders chose to merge with a spirit, when he became the greatest example of the templars' argument against increased freedom for mages, that he decided that he and he alone was worthy of being the arbiter of the Circle mages' fate.

The issue to me aren't only the templars. Looking at it from some perspectives, they're as much abused as mages. Except the abuse of the templars themselves is less apparent than the abuse of the mages by templars. For instance, some of the freedoms that mages forego with - not being able to fraternize, not being able to marry, and so on, are probably also applicable to templars. And let's not forget the lyrium addiction. And doesn't Varric at the end also tells that the templars had rebelled also? Now why would that be? Looking at the situation as purely mages vs. templars is kind of myopic in my view, to say the least.

The Chantry, and all its rules regulations, and incompetance is also to blame. The inflexibility of the 1000 years or so of ruling has caught up with the Chantry finally, it appears.

Varric says the Templar Order rebelled against the Chantry in order to fight the mages. Which tells me that the Divine didn't want them to do so, implying that she wants a peaceful resolution, and would likely support a relaxation of restrictions for mages. And keep in mind that the Order has never been fully part of the Chantry. They're Andrastians, to be sure, but they started out as a violent movement of laypersons and hedge priests attacking and killing anyone they deemed not sufficently pious. In order to stop the Inquisition, as it was known, the Chantry co-opted them, turning them into the Templar Order, and giving them the task of overseeing the Circles of Mages. That, in hidsight, was a mistake, although I don't know what better alternative was available. To me, that is the only mistake the Chantry made, not exterminating the Inquisition.

And regarding the point of simply assassinating Elthina. Couldn't that have been easily construed as Anders' hatred for Elthina alone? So, no, according to Anders the Chantry had to go. And in this regard, his logic was correct. (NOTE: I'm not necessarily supporting his actions here.)

I get that logic, but it again assumes that Meredith would act in a rational manner. But there's no reason to believe that, and every reason to believe that she'd act exactly as she did in game.

Yet another point: the debate to me to some extent looks something like about "the end justifying the means." In this context, Anders thinking the mage freedom as justifying the destruction of the Chantry. But the case is that the end itself is somehow not acceptable to many. Nobody (perpahs apart from a few mages themselves) desires complete mage freedom, and everyone seems to have differing opinions as to how much mages should be allowed to roam free. And the reasoning given by some is that another Tevinter would arise because of this, although not knowing how Tevinter Imperium came to power in the first place; or that common folk will always be at risk from mages.

So whatever the issue is, it's clearly not a simple one, in the sense that one cannot look ten steps into the future and predict what might happen, in any scenario. And this is done intentionally by the writers and developers - it's all going according to plan.

This. I could give my opinion on how it should be managed, and it'd be (as usual) pretty moderate. But at the end of the day, this is what Bioware wants- people debating, people arguing. It's meant to be a polarizing issue.

[DKJaigen]

esper wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

esper wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

esper wrote...

Or you can say that nighttime would take the least innocent lives as civilians were less likely to be praying inside the chantry.

Yes, but would be more likely to kill as many members of the Chantry as possible rather than civilians. I see a lot of Sisters walking around during the day but not many at night.

if you are really pro-mage sisters and brothers are not civilians, but rather part of the chantry. If I had the choice between aiming for the chantry people or aiming more civilians, I will choose the time of day that kills mostly chantry people and not so many civilians.

.... Really? You don't get much more civillian than being a priest. Especially not since the religion got its own military arm, which means the priesthood is entirely seperate from the military.
Also, said priestsesses are important to the civillians you are trying to protect, with all the kindness of your heart. I bet they will be oh so greatful once they realize you've just blown up their spiritual guides.

The chantry is a military organisation so the priest are not civilians. Not ín the world of Thedas. And I don't want the gratitude of the civilians, if they came after me with pitchforkes and what weapon I would not hesistate to burn them down if I were a mage. I am just saying I wouldn't aim for them first, because there would really be no point in aiming for them, but there is a point in aiming for the chantry and its priest.

Indeed. In fact i rather target the chantries first then the templars. cutting the templars of from administrative and monetary support will cripple the templars and you can resolve this war without many casualties

Modifié par DKJaigen, 18 septembre 2011 - 07:11 .

[esper]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

esper wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

esper wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

esper wrote...

Or you can say that nighttime would take the least innocent lives as civilians were less likely to be praying inside the chantry.

Yes, but would be more likely to kill as many members of the Chantry as possible rather than civilians. I see a lot of Sisters walking around during the day but not many at night.

if you are really pro-mage sisters and brothers are not civilians, but rather part of the chantry. If I had the choice between aiming for the chantry people or aiming more civilians, I will choose the time of day that kills mostly chantry people and not so many civilians.

.... Really? You don't get much more civillian than being a priest. Especially not since the religion got its own military arm, which means the priesthood is entirely seperate from the military.
Also, said priestsesses are important to the civillians you are trying to protect, with all the kindness of your heart. I bet they will be oh so greatful once they realize you've just blown up their spiritual guides.

The chantry is a military organisation so the priest are not civilians. Not ín the world of Thedas. And I don't want the gratitude of the civilians, if they came after me with pitchforkes and what weapon I would not hesistate to burn them down if I were a mage. I am just saying I wouldn't aim for them first, because there would really be no point in aiming for them, but there is a point in aiming for the chantry and its priest.

So basically, if you were a mage, you would be one of the reason mages need to be kept in the Circles.

If people came at me with pitchforkes? I would defend myself, just as I would if I had a sword, but I wouldn't flaunt my magical abilities in the head of normal people so they properly wouldn't come at me with pitchforkes in the first place.
If I were a mage and the cirlce system didn't exit I would feel no need to rebel against the chantry (unless I were an elf too, but I am not sure that rebelling against the chantry is enough for the elves).
My first point is that I don't really care about what the normal people feel about the Chantry thing, and I don't think that Anders does either. It was a symbol meant for the mages, templars and properly the divine. If Anders really thought about night and day, it makes sense that he aimed at night were mostly chantry people and not so many civilians will be lost. (Mind you I don't think no civilian was lost in the attack, the discussion was about what his intent with the time was). 

[Relix28]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

He did not want to murder innocents, yet his plan did invovle the murder of innocents. That is the whole point. Anders himself even admits to his crime and don't think that he should be allowed to live. He did not go out with a plan to kill as many civillians as possible. He went out with a plan about destroying an important symbol, to both the Chantry, but also the people of Thedas. His plan was to spread fear, for the sake of mage freedom. In short he fights for mage freedom, using terror tactics.
So as I said: One man's freedom fighter, is another man's terrorist.

Exactly. The unfortunate innocents were collateral damage, and not the main target or the reason behind the attack.
That's what I've been saying all along.

[esper]

DKJaigen wrote...

esper wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

esper wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

esper wrote...

Or you can say that nighttime would take the least innocent lives as civilians were less likely to be praying inside the chantry.

Yes, but would be more likely to kill as many members of the Chantry as possible rather than civilians. I see a lot of Sisters walking around during the day but not many at night.

if you are really pro-mage sisters and brothers are not civilians, but rather part of the chantry. If I had the choice between aiming for the chantry people or aiming more civilians, I will choose the time of day that kills mostly chantry people and not so many civilians.

.... Really? You don't get much more civillian than being a priest. Especially not since the religion got its own military arm, which means the priesthood is entirely seperate from the military.
Also, said priestsesses are important to the civillians you are trying to protect, with all the kindness of your heart. I bet they will be oh so greatful once they realize you've just blown up their spiritual guides.

The chantry is a military organisation so the priest are not civilians. Not ín the world of Thedas. And I don't want the gratitude of the civilians, if they came after me with pitchforkes and what weapon I would not hesistate to burn them down if I were a mage. I am just saying I wouldn't aim for them first, because there would really be no point in aiming for them, but there is a point in aiming for the chantry and its priest.

Indeed. In fact i rather target the chantries first then the templars. cutting the templars of from administrative and monetary support will cripple the templars and you can resolve this war without many casualties

The templars sort of cut them self off from that specific support by the ending of da2, but before da2 I would agreee with your plan. I still don't know why the templars thought that rebelling against the chantry was a good move. But that means that the only (known) military branch left in the chantry is the Seekers, so I would aim for them next.

[TEWR]

The templars sort of cut them self off from that specific support by the ending of da2, but before da2 I would agreee with your plan. I still don't know why the templars thought that rebelling against the chantry was a good move. But that means that the only (known) military branch left in the chantry is the Seekers, so I would aim for them next.

It's possible that the Divine is an anti-fundamentalist and didn't want to slaughter the mages and actually wanted to work things out with them (though dialogue in DAII's Faith does not convey this at all), and the majority of Templars were unhappy with that route.

The Templars have become the Inquisition again, only a far more dangerous version. The lyrium addicted version.

[Sylvianus]

esper wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

esper wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

esper wrote...

Or you can say that nighttime would take the least innocent lives as civilians were less likely to be praying inside the chantry.

Yes, but would be more likely to kill as many members of the Chantry as possible rather than civilians. I see a lot of Sisters walking around during the day but not many at night.

if you are really pro-mage sisters and brothers are not civilians, but rather part of the chantry. If I had the choice between aiming for the chantry people or aiming more civilians, I will choose the time of day that kills mostly chantry people and not so many civilians.

.... Really? You don't get much more civillian than being a priest. Especially not since the religion got its own military arm, which means the priesthood is entirely seperate from the military.
Also, said priestsesses are important to the civillians you are trying to protect, with all the kindness of your heart. I bet they will be oh so greatful once they realize you've just blown up their spiritual guides.

The chantry is a military organisation so the priest are not civilians. Not ín the world of Thedas. And I don't want the gratitude of the civilians, if they came after me with pitchforkes and what weapon I would not hesistate to burn them down if I were a mage. I am just saying I wouldn't aim for them first, because there would really be no point in aiming for them, but there is a point in aiming for the chantry and its priest.

Excuse me ? Priests not civilians in the world of Thedas ? Can you explain me ? What is the difference with real life ?

So these people have become targets because they are soldiers ?  Meaningless. Those who have joined the Chantry that's because they believe in the maker, or, have found their vocation in religion, as priests,  or want to serve the faith and Andraste, because like Leliana they want to find peace with themself, and to help the people, etc etc. Not to kill and burn mages, etc.

Everything you say makes me feel that you want to convince yourself that nothing bad has happened. But, Yes evil has been done and innocents were killed and killing innocent people it's  never justified whatever the cause. Never.  And yes, the reality is sometimes hard.  It  is not good against evil, that you repeat all the time, even if you do not repeat those words exactly.

You want to aim them ? good, that's a good strategy, but no it's not good, that's not moral,  yes, you are killing innocents people, and, yes for your freedom, you think that's good to kill anyone who can serve your goal. Im' not against this concept, but   you're hiding behind a false morality to justify the killing of innocent people and you coats your sentences. " only victims against the oppressors " , all are bad because the organisation seems bad, good against evil for you discharge any moral responsibility for your actions.

You'll kill innocents people, you'll murder, and you will be a murderer. Not a good and moral person, I say to you. You will be free, and good for you.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 18 septembre 2011 - 07:21 .

[Melca36]

ChaplainTappman wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

During Act 2, one sees Anders working in consort with the Mages Underground. A group, which under the active support of even the locals (I'm guessing common folk of Kirkwall), is attempting to help rebel mages flee Kirkwall. This movement kind of dies at the start of ACT 3, when templars are well and truly in control of Kirkwall, after Viscount Dumar dies and the City Guard loses numbers. The whole environment in Kirkwall changes, and I don't know what happens to the Underground - perhaps members caught and made tranquil? It is not because of nothing that Anders runs out of options. The issue with all this is that it is such a small part of the story, so as to go somewhat neglected. So, then, is one ought to think of Anders as a "freedom fighter" in ACT 2 and as a "terrorist" in ACT 3?

But you don't see a difference between helping mages flee Kirkwall, and choosing to shift to a violent path that directly causes the deaths of a great number of innocents? Anders' goals shift between acts, as he loses control of himself to Justice. So, yes, I do think there's a distinction between Anders in Act 2 and Anders in Act 3.

And there is the element of fusion of Justice and Anders, one having an influence upon the other. So where does one begin to blame Anders, and not Justice?

Irrelevant, in large part. Anders himself states that there's no real boundary between the two. They're the same being. But Justice should be considered. As I said earlier, it wasn't until Anders chose to merge with a spirit, when he became the greatest example of the templars' argument against increased freedom for mages, that he decided that he and he alone was worthy of being the arbiter of the Circle mages' fate.

The issue to me aren't only the templars. Looking at it from some perspectives, they're as much abused as mages. Except the abuse of the templars themselves is less apparent than the abuse of the mages by templars. For instance, some of the freedoms that mages forego with - not being able to fraternize, not being able to marry, and so on, are probably also applicable to templars. And let's not forget the lyrium addiction. And doesn't Varric at the end also tells that the templars had rebelled also? Now why would that be? Looking at the situation as purely mages vs. templars is kind of myopic in my view, to say the least.

The Chantry, and all its rules regulations, and incompetance is also to blame. The inflexibility of the 1000 years or so of ruling has caught up with the Chantry finally, it appears.

Varric says the Templar Order rebelled against the Chantry in order to fight the mages. Which tells me that the Divine didn't want them to do so, implying that she wants a peaceful resolution, and would likely support a relaxation of restrictions for mages. And keep in mind that the Order has never been fully part of the Chantry. They're Andrastians, to be sure, but they started out as a violent movement of laypersons and hedge priests attacking and killing anyone they deemed not sufficently pious. In order to stop the Inquisition, as it was known, the Chantry co-opted them, turning them into the Templar Order, and giving them the task of overseeing the Circles of Mages. That, in hidsight, was a mistake, although I don't know what better alternative was available. To me, that is the only mistake the Chantry made, not exterminating the Inquisition.

And regarding the point of simply assassinating Elthina. Couldn't that have been easily construed as Anders' hatred for Elthina alone? So, no, according to Anders the Chantry had to go. And in this regard, his logic was correct. (NOTE: I'm not necessarily supporting his actions here.)

I get that logic, but it again assumes that Meredith would act in a rational manner. But there's no reason to believe that, and every reason to believe that she'd act exactly as she did in game.

Yet another point: the debate to me to some extent looks something like about "the end justifying the means." In this context, Anders thinking the mage freedom as justifying the destruction of the Chantry. But the case is that the end itself is somehow not acceptable to many. Nobody (perpahs apart from a few mages themselves) desires complete mage freedom, and everyone seems to have differing opinions as to how much mages should be allowed to roam free. And the reasoning given by some is that another Tevinter would arise because of this, although not knowing how Tevinter Imperium came to power in the first place; or that common folk will always be at risk from mages.

So whatever the issue is, it's clearly not a simple one, in the sense that one cannot look ten steps into the future and predict what might happen, in any scenario. And this is done intentionally by the writers and developers - it's all going according to plan.

This. I could give my opinion on how it should be managed, and it'd be (as usual) pretty moderate. But at the end of the day, this is what Bioware wants- people debating, people arguing. It's meant to be a polarizing issue.

Actually if you listen **carefully** to what Varric said.... The Templars DID NOT rebel to fight the mages....

Modifié par Melca36, 18 septembre 2011 - 07:21 .

[esper]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The templars sort of cut them self off from that specific support by the ending of da2, but before da2 I would agreee with your plan. I still don't know why the templars thought that rebelling against the chantry was a good move. But that means that the only (known) military branch left in the chantry is the Seekers, so I would aim for them next.

It's possible that the Divine is an anti-fundamentalist and didn't want to slaughter the mages and actually wanted to work things out with them (though dialogue in DAII's Faith does not convey this at all), and the majority of Templars were unhappy with that route.

The Templars have become the Inquisition again, only a far more dangerous version. The lyrium addicted version.

What we have seen in the game so far makes I think no. Not before the rebellion.
But I think that the White Divine possible panicked. With the mages out of control one third (to make this easy we just say that all three branches are euqally big) of her army was suddenly lost. She might actually have being against a slaugther at that point because losing one third of your army in Thedas is not funny. (Too bad that the system encouraged fanaticts among Templars so they would not compromise). 
Judging from Cassandra the chantry have problery being hunting Hawke from the moment the Templars began to rebel hence the reason pro-templar Hawke is gone too, (Cassandra is all: The champion spread subversion/upsurption against the chantry matter what you chose at the end) but she still wants to find the champion to do damage control.
I think that the White Divine realised that she wouldn't get the mages back into the fold (so to speak) without some compromise.
The templars who was trained to be fanatics, were: hell no, compromise is not our purpose and suddenly the chantry has lost two branches of their army instead of one, and none of the two are willing to listen to the chantry anymore. It properly takes some times for the chantry to realise that the templars are a lost cause as well (to the chantry) so therefore they desperately grasp at the one straw (the champion) that might help.

[esper]

Sylvianus wrote...

esper wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

esper wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

esper wrote...

Or you can say that nighttime would take the least innocent lives as civilians were less likely to be praying inside the chantry.

Yes, but would be more likely to kill as many members of the Chantry as possible rather than civilians. I see a lot of Sisters walking around during the day but not many at night.

if you are really pro-mage sisters and brothers are not civilians, but rather part of the chantry. If I had the choice between aiming for the chantry people or aiming more civilians, I will choose the time of day that kills mostly chantry people and not so many civilians.

.... Really? You don't get much more civillian than being a priest. Especially not since the religion got its own military arm, which means the priesthood is entirely seperate from the military.
Also, said priestsesses are important to the civillians you are trying to protect, with all the kindness of your heart. I bet they will be oh so greatful once they realize you've just blown up their spiritual guides.

The chantry is a military organisation so the priest are not civilians. Not ín the world of Thedas. And I don't want the gratitude of the civilians, if they came after me with pitchforkes and what weapon I would not hesistate to burn them down if I were a mage. I am just saying I wouldn't aim for them first, because there would really be no point in aiming for them, but there is a point in aiming for the chantry and its priest.

Excuse me ? Priests not civilians in the world of Thedas ? Can you explain me ? What is the difference with real life ?

So these people have become targets because they are soldiers ?  Meaningless. Those who have joined the Chantry that's because they believe in the maker, or, have found their vocation in religion, as priests,  or want to serve the faith and Andraste, because like Leliana they want to find peace with themself, and to help the people, etc etc. Not to kill and burn mages, etc.

Everything you say makes me feel that you want to convince yourself that nothing bad has happened. But, Yes evil has been done and innocents were killed and killing innocent people it's  never justified whatever the cause. Never.  And yes, the reality is sometimes hard.  It  is not good against evil, that you repeat all the time, even if you do not repeat those words exactly.

You want to aim them ? good, that's a good strategy, but no it's not good, that's not moral,  yes, you are killing innocents people, and, yes for your freedom, you think that's good to kill anyone who can serve your goal. Im' not against this concept, but   you're hiding behind a false morality to justify the killing of innocent people and you coats your sentences. " only victims against the oppressors " , all are bad because the organisation seems bad, good against evil for you discharge any moral responsibility for your actions.

You'll kill innocents people, you'll murder, and you will be a murderer. Not a good and moral person, I say to you. You will be free, and good for you.

The difference is that our church don't have a military (any longer) they can march against people who doesn't belief in their way of life. The chantry does and is not afraid to use the military. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Relix28 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

He did not want to murder innocents, yet his plan did invovle the murder of innocents. That is the whole point. Anders himself even admits to his crime and don't think that he should be allowed to live. He did not go out with a plan to kill as many civillians as possible. He went out with a plan about destroying an important symbol, to both the Chantry, but also the people of Thedas. His plan was to spread fear, for the sake of mage freedom. In short he fights for mage freedom, using terror tactics.
So as I said: One man's freedom fighter, is another man's terrorist.

Exactly. The unfortunate innocents were collateral damage, and not the main target or the reason behind the attack.
That's what I've been saying all along.

They were not collateral. he knew they would be inside the Chantry when he set of his bomb. At best they were a sacrifice he was willing to make. At worst they were his actual targets. We know for a fact that Elthina and the Chantry (building) was his targets.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The templars sort of cut them self off from that specific support by the ending of da2, but before da2 I would agreee with your plan. I still don't know why the templars thought that rebelling against the chantry was a good move. But that means that the only (known) military branch left in the chantry is the Seekers, so I would aim for them next.

It's possible that the Divine is an anti-fundamentalist and didn't want to slaughter the mages and actually wanted to work things out with them (though dialogue in DAII's Faith does not convey this at all), and the majority of Templars were unhappy with that route.

The Templars have become the Inquisition again, only a far more dangerous version. The lyrium addicted version.

The dialogue in Faith does not give any hints at all towards the Divine's motivation, except that she is not in favor of a violent mage uprising.

[MichaelFinnegan]

ChaplainTappman wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

During Act 2, one sees Anders working in consort with the Mages Underground. A group, which under the active support of even the locals (I'm guessing common folk of Kirkwall), is attempting to help rebel mages flee Kirkwall. This movement kind of dies at the start of ACT 3, when templars are well and truly in control of Kirkwall, after Viscount Dumar dies and the City Guard loses numbers. The whole environment in Kirkwall changes, and I don't know what happens to the Underground - perhaps members caught and made tranquil? It is not because of nothing that Anders runs out of options. The issue with all this is that it is such a small part of the story, so as to go somewhat neglected. So, then, is one ought to think of Anders as a "freedom fighter" in ACT 2 and as a "terrorist" in ACT 3?

But you don't see a difference between helping mages flee Kirkwall, and choosing to shift to a violent path that directly causes the deaths of a great number of innocents? Anders' goals shift between acts, as he loses control of himself to Justice. So, yes, I do think there's a distinction between Anders in Act 2 and Anders in Act 3.

Don't get me wrong. I was merely pondering how one could see the difference between a "freedom fighter" and "terrorst," because there is something in the game itself that can help us to distinguish/contrast between the terms.

But, although I perceive his act to be wrong, not merely in blowing up the Chantry, but also in losing the support that he had from locals, who go from helping apostates escape to possibly demanding for blood of mages, I do understand that Anders was mostly acting out of desperation.

It's a funny thing what BioWare did - with Anders and Justice and with Meredith and the idol. It was almost as if they were using these devices to force the story to follow a set path.

And there is the element of fusion of Justice and Anders, one having an influence upon the other. So where does one begin to blame Anders, and not Justice?

Irrelevant, in large part. Anders himself states that there's no real boundary between the two. They're the same being. But Justice should be considered. As I said earlier, it wasn't until Anders chose to merge with a spirit, when he became the greatest example of the templars' argument against increased freedom for mages, that he decided that he and he alone was worthy of being the arbiter of the Circle mages' fate.

I do not think it's as irrelevant as you suggest. Merrill seems to suggest in a conversation with Anders that the Dalish understand that there are no such things as good spirits in the Fade, and all should be considered dangerous. Anders may have made a grave error in judgment. The motive is important I believe when one thinks about deciding his fate.  But, yes, I know he admits that here was no real distinction between him and Justice, but I kind of take that to mean he had not really understood the situation, even then. I actually changed my mind about it sometime back...

Varric says the Templar Order rebelled against the Chantry in order to fight the mages. Which tells me that the Divine didn't want them to do so, implying that she wants a peaceful resolution, and would likely support a relaxation of restrictions for mages.

But does Varric really say that the templars are going after the mages? If so, I'll take back my argument.

And keep in mind that the Order has never been fully part of the Chantry. They're Andrastians, to be sure, but they started out as a violent movement of laypersons and hedge priests attacking and killing anyone they deemed not sufficently pious. In order to stop the Inquisition, as it was known, the Chantry co-opted them, turning them into the Templar Order, and giving them the task of overseeing the Circles of Mages. That, in hidsight, was a mistake, although I don't know what better alternative was available. To me, that is the only mistake the Chantry made, not exterminating the Inquisition.

No, I do not think it was a mistake. The Chantry, when it formed the Circles with the mages and templars, was perhaps doing the right thing for everyone concerned. After the fall of Tevinter, mages would have been considered a threat, everywhere, so they'd have had a terrible time, not really because of a fault of their own.

Where the Chantry went wrong in my opinion is when they stopped considering ways to improve the condition of mages (and templars) over the ages. Although mages are not slaves of templars, templars have sufficient power that can be used for abuse, as Kirkwall demonstrates. And mages taken away from families when they are young, not being able to fraternize or marry like normal folk, that will be looked upon as oppression by mages. And then there is the Right of Annulment, the Harrowing process, and the possibility of being made tranquil. These all add to the insecurity of mages, so they should've been short term measures, and the objective should've been to find better methods over time.

And regarding the point of simply assassinating Elthina. Couldn't that have been easily construed as Anders' hatred for Elthina alone? So, no, according to Anders the Chantry had to go. And in this regard, his logic was correct. (NOTE: I'm not necessarily supporting his actions here.)

I get that logic, but it again assumes that Meredith would act in a rational manner. But there's no reason to believe that, and every reason to believe that she'd act exactly as she did in game.

Anders was betting on Meridith to act that way, I think. He was more or less sure that Orsino would surrender, if such an opportunity arose, and that would have resulted in compromise with the templars, if Meredith had accepted. Anders wanted to remove this compromise, and he was willing to sacrifice the Grand Cleric's life (although I doubt he wanted to kill her, actually) and lives of the Circle mages (who would either be forced to undergo RoA or fight back). Any civilian death is not suggested in the game, but it's logical to assume that some might have died during the blast, too.

So whatever the issue is, it's clearly not a simple one, in the sense that one cannot look ten steps into the future and predict what might happen, in any scenario. And this is done intentionally by the writers and developers - it's all going according to plan.

This. I could give my opinion on how it should be managed, and it'd be (as usual) pretty moderate. But at the end of the day, this is what Bioware wants- people debating, people arguing. It's meant to be a polarizing issue

And let's not forget this is supposed to be a "dark fantasy." So I don't think the ending is going to be a pleasant one, at least not entirely. Although, for the life of me, I cannot guess what it might really be; at least I think it is just one possible ending....