2340 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvianus]

esper wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

esper wrote...

The chantry is a military organisation so the priest are not civilians. Not ín the world of Thedas. And I don't want the gratitude of the civilians, if they came after me with pitchforkes and what weapon I would not hesistate to burn them down if I were a mage. I am just saying I wouldn't aim for them first, because there would really be no point in aiming for them, but there is a point in aiming for the chantry and its priest.

Excuse me ? Priests not civilians in the world of Thedas ? Can you explain me ? What is the difference with real life ?

So these people have become targets because they are soldiers ?  Meaningless. Those who have joined the Chantry that's because they believe in the maker, or, have found their vocation in religion, as priests,  or want to serve the faith and Andraste, because like Leliana they want to find peace with themself, and to help the people, etc etc. Not to kill and burn mages, etc.

Everything you say makes me feel that you want to convince yourself that nothing bad has happened. But, Yes evil has been done and innocents were killed and killing innocent people it's  never justified whatever the cause. Never.  And yes, the reality is sometimes hard.  It  is not good against evil, that you repeat all the time, even if you do not repeat those words exactly.

You want to aim them ? good, that's a good strategy, but no it's not good, that's not moral,  yes, you are killing innocents people, and, yes for your freedom, you think that's good to kill anyone who can serve your goal. Im' not against this concept, but   you're hiding behind a false morality to justify the killing of innocent people and you coats your sentences. " only victims against the oppressors " , all are bad because the organisation seems bad, good against evil for you discharge any moral responsibility for your actions.

You'll kill innocents people, you'll murder, and you will be a murderer. Not a good and moral person, I say to you. You will be free, and good for you.

The difference is that our church don't have a military (any longer) they can march against people who doesn't belief in their way of life. The chantry does and is not afraid to use the military. 

During the wars of religion, is that it was justified to kill all the priests on the other side? Here is a Catholic priest, as the Catholic church or Rome is bad, I'll kill all the Catholic priests everywhere and massacred entire cities of Catholics. Yes, because Spain is the armed wing of the Catholic Church, ligue or others. So these are all military.

Here is a Protestant. As the Protestant religion is a heresy, I will kill all the priests, Protestant, and massacred entire cities of Protestants. Yes, because England, the netherlands, sweden, are the armed wing of the Protestant church in Europe. These are all soldiers since all the priests belong to the Protestant church.

The Templars is a military organization. The Chantry is a political power, a religious institution. It covers lots of area and lots of ordinary people. Without the Templars, the chantry is nothing. You can threaten the organization and have a lot of results without using the mass murder. ( but if that's your will, you can as well, but we must not  behind some false moral )

You go too much into  "they are all bad, so kill them all."

The priests are harmless, but as they are part of the Chantry, they must all be soldiers and then kill them all ?

Sounds a lot like:

mages are dangerous, apostates are often blood mages ouside, since the circle is a group of mages, they must be all dangerous and  should be all eliminated. good against evil, they aren't innocents, because some were bad.

I'm telling you, you all are not credible and you make the cause of the Mages less friendly because you think in the end as some of the chantry, you have just your own goals. And only that goal counts; But you aren't different.

, your screams of genocide seem not credible too. What bothers you is simply that the mages are victims, not the act in question, since you are defending the same principle, albeit for different reasons.

I'm not complaining, and I can understand this desire, but again, do not pretend to be morally better than others, the thought that you have, has destroyed everything that you defend on the other side, and you only the pro-mages think credible. ( I'm not pro-templar, neutral, )

you Just want to be free, and your goals, whatever the cost, and ready to kill everyone, including innocent people, who are all bad, as all mages are bad for Meredith, her who want to protect her people.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 18 septembre 2011 - 07:58 .

[ChaplainTappman]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Don't get me wrong. I was merely pondering how one could see the difference between a "freedom fighter" and "terrorst," because there is something in the game itself that can help us to distinguish/contrast between the terms.

But, although I perceive his act to be wrong, not merely in blowing up the Chantry, but also in losing the support that he had from locals, who go from helping apostates escape to possibly demanding for blood of mages, I do understand that Anders was mostly acting out of desperation.

I'd agree with you, but I see a clear delineation between acts. When Anders lashes out in frustration and desperation, like he does against Ser Alrik in "Dissent," that's forgivable. But by Act 3, his goals have shifted from mage liberation to destruction of the Chantry, and his methods have become inexcusable.

It's a funny thing what BioWare did - with Anders and Justice and with Meredith and the idol. It was almost as if they were using these devices to force the story to follow a set path.

Well, that's exactly what they wanted to do. I'm okay with that, they need to be able to tell a focused story.

I do not think it's as irrelevant as you suggest. Merrill seems to suggest in a conversation with Anders that the Dalish understand that there are no such things as good spirits in the Fade, and all should be considered dangerous. Anders may have made a grave error in judgment. The motive is important I believe when one thinks about deciding his fate.  But, yes, I know he admits that here was no real distinction between him and Justice, but I kind of take that to mean he had not really understood the situation, even then. I actually changed my mind about it sometime back...

That's a fair point, that it's not Anders who decides to destroy the chantry, but Justice. But the fact remains that the creature (whatever it is) calling itself Anders chose that act, and must be held accountable for it. That quote of Merrill's, that there's no such thing as a "good spirit" is actually kind of core to my opinion of Anders, post-merging with Justice. He is an abomination, an incredibly powerful one. The arc of his mental state throughout the game suggests to me that the demon is winning, is taking over. It's not unreasonable to assume that, left alive, he'll only become more unstable, more violent.

But does Varric really say that the templars are going after the mages? If so, I'll take back my argument.

What Varric says, verbatim:

"In fact, haven't the templars rebelled as well? I thought you decided to abandon the Chantry to hunt the mages."

He's speaking to Cassandra and making the common mistake of assuming the Seekers are part of the Order, but it's pretty clear to me. The Order wouldn't have abandoned the Chantry if the Divine was willing to let them fight a war with the mages.

No, I do not think it was a mistake. The Chantry, when it formed the Circles with the mages and templars, was perhaps doing the right thing for everyone concerned. After the fall of Tevinter, mages would have been considered a threat, everywhere, so they'd have had a terrible time, not really because of a fault of their own.

Like I said, I think it's the sort of thing that requires hindsight to accept as a mistake. I don't know what alternatives they had, though they should have kept strict oversight on the Order.

Where the Chantry went wrong in my opinion is when they stopped considering ways to improve the condition of mages (and templars) over the ages. Although mages are not slaves of templars, templars have sufficient power that can be used for abuse, as Kirkwall demonstrates. And mages taken away from families when they are young, not being able to fraternize or marry like normal folk, that will be looked upon as oppression by mages. And then there is the Right of Annulment, the Harrowing process, and the possibility of being made tranquil. These all add to the insecurity of mages, so they should've been short term measures, and the objective should've been to find better methods over time.

There's a lot wrong with the system, no doubt, but I think much of it should be blamed on the Order, considering they're the ones who created and oversaw the system. The fact is, there never should have been a Circle in Kirkwall. The Tevinter magisters deliberately weakened the Fade there, and to situate a large number of Fade-sensitive people there was the height of arrogance and stupidity. There's no doubt in my mind that the first Circle mages there informed the templars and were ignored. That invited everything that transpired there.

The prohibition on marriage (which is somewhat flexible) and the separation from family are wrong, there's no doubt about that to me. I think young mages should be kept at the Circle (for uniformity of education and for their own protection), but absolutely should be given visitation rights. And having relationships and marrying should certainly be allowed.

I actually have no problem with the Harrowing. If you're not strong enough to resist demonic possession, that should be determined in a controlled environment. I'm kind of ambivalent about Annulment and the tranquil issue. If a Circle is too far gone to be salvaged, if possession is rampant, I'm not sure it's a bad idea to give overseers the ability to purge; at least with the Right, that ability is codified and there's some sort of restriction. With tranquils, if you can't resist possession, is it better to be tranquil or dead? I don't know.

To me, the issues stem from the single fact that the people assigned to oversee the mages are an organization that has one prerequisite for enlistment: blind religious zeal. The resultant attitude, that mages are necessarily dangerous and suspect, is a nonstarter for peaceful and constructive cooperation. The Chantry gave the Circles to the Order and stopped thinking about them, which was a mistake. But had mages been placed in the charge of the Seekers, I think the situation would've been much different, and much less onerous to the mages.

[Xilizhra]

To me, the issues stem from the single fact that the people assigned to oversee the mages are an organization that has one prerequisite for enlistment: blind religious zeal. The resultant attitude, that mages are necessarily dangerous and suspect, is a nonstarter for peaceful and constructive cooperation. The Chantry gave the Circles to the Order and stopped thinking about them, which was a mistake. But had mages been placed in the charge of the Seekers, I think the situation would've been much different, and much less onerous to the mages.

Unlikely. The Chantry itself is inherently magophobic; no possible Chantry organization could be trusted to watch out for mages.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Mages certainly can't be trusted to watch over themselves either. So it appears we are at an impass.

[ChaplainTappman]

Xilizhra wrote...

To me, the issues stem from the single fact that the people assigned to oversee the mages are an organization that has one prerequisite for enlistment: blind religious zeal. The resultant attitude, that mages are necessarily dangerous and suspect, is a nonstarter for peaceful and constructive cooperation. The Chantry gave the Circles to the Order and stopped thinking about them, which was a mistake. But had mages been placed in the charge of the Seekers, I think the situation would've been much different, and much less onerous to the mages.

Unlikely. The Chantry itself is inherently magophobic; no possible Chantry organization could be trusted to watch out for mages.

I disagree. I think the Andrastian faith is inherently wary of blood magic; uneducated and superstitious people have equated that with "all mages are evil."

The Seekers represent a much more moderate and intelligent branch of the faith. As I said earlier in this thread, Leliana holds views on the nature of the Andrastian faith that border on the heretical, yet she's not only a high ranking Seeker, she is a personal agent of the Divine. Cassandra is interested in finding out the truth of what happened in Kirkwall. Not the dogmatic truth, but the literal truth. That suggests to me that the organization would be more than willing to work with the mages, rather than hold the confrontational attitude of the templars.

[Dave of Canada]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Templars have become the Inquisition again, only a far more dangerous version. The lyrium addicted version.

We're totally going to be hunting Chaos cults and nuking planets in DA3!

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Mages certainly can't be trusted to watch over themselves either. So it appears we are at an impass.

The Mages' Collective disagrees with your notion of mages being unable to watch over themselves. They especially disagree with anyone's notion that free mages = Tevinter 2.0.

In fact, they've been working to increase the good perception of magic by making problems disappear before the Chantry gets involved.

[esper]

Sylvianus wrote...

esper wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

esper wrote...

The chantry is a military organisation so the priest are not civilians. Not ín the world of Thedas. And I don't want the gratitude of the civilians, if they came after me with pitchforkes and what weapon I would not hesistate to burn them down if I were a mage. I am just saying I wouldn't aim for them first, because there would really be no point in aiming for them, but there is a point in aiming for the chantry and its priest.

Excuse me ? Priests not civilians in the world of Thedas ? Can you explain me ? What is the difference with real life ?

So these people have become targets because they are soldiers ?  Meaningless. Those who have joined the Chantry that's because they believe in the maker, or, have found their vocation in religion, as priests,  or want to serve the faith and Andraste, because like Leliana they want to find peace with themself, and to help the people, etc etc. Not to kill and burn mages, etc.

Everything you say makes me feel that you want to convince yourself that nothing bad has happened. But, Yes evil has been done and innocents were killed and killing innocent people it's  never justified whatever the cause. Never.  And yes, the reality is sometimes hard.  It  is not good against evil, that you repeat all the time, even if you do not repeat those words exactly.

You want to aim them ? good, that's a good strategy, but no it's not good, that's not moral,  yes, you are killing innocents people, and, yes for your freedom, you think that's good to kill anyone who can serve your goal. Im' not against this concept, but   you're hiding behind a false morality to justify the killing of innocent people and you coats your sentences. " only victims against the oppressors " , all are bad because the organisation seems bad, good against evil for you discharge any moral responsibility for your actions.

You'll kill innocents people, you'll murder, and you will be a murderer. Not a good and moral person, I say to you. You will be free, and good for you.

The difference is that our church don't have a military (any longer) they can march against people who doesn't belief in their way of life. The chantry does and is not afraid to use the military. 

During the wars of religion, is that it was justified to kill all the priests on the other side? Here is a Catholic priest, as the Catholic church or Rome is bad, I'll kill all the Catholic priests everywhere and massacred entire cities of Catholics. Yes, because Spain is the armed wing of the Catholic Church, ligue or others. So these are all military.

Here is a Protestant. As the Protestant religion is a heresy, I will kill all the priests, Protestant, and massacred entire cities of Protestants. Yes, because England, the netherlands, sweden, are the armed wing of the Protestant church in Europe. These are all soldiers since all the priests belong to the Protestant church.

The Templars is a military organization. The Chantry is a political power, a religious institution. It covers lots of area and lots of ordinary people. Without the Templars, the chantry is nothing. You can threaten the organization and have a lot of results without using the mass murder. ( but if that's your will, you can as well, but we must not  behind some false moral )

You go too much into  "they are all bad, so kill them all."

The priests are harmless, but as they are part of the Chantry, they must all be soldiers and then kill them all ?

Sounds a lot like:

mages are dangerous, apostates are often blood mages ouside, since the circle is a group of mages, they must be all dangerous and  should be all eliminated. good against evil, they aren't innocents, because some were bad.

I'm telling you, you all are not credible and you make the cause of the Mages less friendly because you think in the end as some of the chantry, you have just your own goals. And only that goal counts; But you aren't different.

, your screams of genocide seem not credible too. What bothers you is simply that the mages are victims, not the act in question, since you are defending the same principle, albeit for different reasons.

I'm not complaining, and I can understand this desire, but again, do not pretend to be morally better than others, the thought that you have, has destroyed everything that you defend on the other side, and you only the pro-mages think credible. ( I'm not pro-templar, neutral, )

you Just want to be free, and your goals, whatever the cost, and ready to kill everyone, including innocent people, who are all bad, as all mages are bad for Meredith, her who want to protect her people.

The chantry controlled the templars, mages and seeker, they used to control the crows as well. Once they are all gone from the chantry control I will stop calling them an military organisation. Sadly the seekers remains so they are still a military. The chantry can command these groups say who they are to attack and when. That makes them military.
 

[Xilizhra]

I disagree. I think the Andrastian faith is inherently wary of blood magic; uneducated and superstitious people have equated that with "all mages are evil."

And the Chantry itself.

The Seekers represent a much more moderate and intelligent branch of the faith. As I said earlier in this thread, Leliana holds views on the nature of the Andrastian faith that border on the heretical, yet she's not only a high ranking Seeker, she is a personal agent of the Divine. Cassandra is interested in finding out the truth of what happened in Kirkwall. Not the dogmatic truth, but the literal truth. That suggests to me that the organization would be more than willing to work with the mages, rather than hold the confrontational attitude of the templars.

Leliana's too opaque for me to say anything, but I think the Chantry might be finally starting to wake up to the crapfest it created when the templars broke away, explaining Cassandra's moderation.

[esper]

Also the priest aren't harmless. Petrice should be prime example of that. Varnell was a templar who followed her because she was a mother. She just chose to sacrifice him, because he had been stupid enough to use the Grabd Cleric seal, but the mere fact that a templar could use the seal and nobody questioned that he was under order from the Grand Cleric, proves that the chantry controls the templars.
And unlike the mages the priest chose to be priests. They can walk away form their position. The mages do not have a choice. If magic was something learned and not born with I would not have felt the same way about the issue.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Mages certainly can't be trusted to watch over themselves either. So it appears we are at an impass.

The Mages' Collective disagrees with your notion of mages being unable to watch over themselves. They especially disagree with anyone's notion that free mages = Tevinter 2.0.

In fact, they've been working to increase the good perception of magic by making problems disappear before the Chantry gets involved.

Yeah... Those guys.. I'm sure none of them at all are rotten to the core. Especially not since they help blood mages escape the proper authorities, and are looking for scrolls detailing blood magic, oh and even better wants to increase their own power with some sort of dark ritual. Yeah, they are an altruistic lot....

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Templars have become the Inquisition again, only a far more dangerous version. The lyrium addicted version.

We're totally going to be hunting Chaos cults and nuking planets in DA3!

Pro-Templar people will be really happy

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

But, although I perceive his act to be wrong, not merely in blowing up the Chantry, but also in losing the support that he had from locals, who go from helping apostates escape to possibly demanding for blood of mages, I do understand that Anders was mostly acting out of desperation.

it's one of the reasons I thought Anders bombing in general, was an idiotic idea. Meredith and her templars were already pushing people past the brink, and turning popular sentiment against them. He should have waited. Or, even better, helped the templars along. We already know the templar order in Kirkwall is full of corruption. I would have went with that, and encourargaed the spread of vice and corruption within the order, driving them to behave even more extreme towards the population, losing the last sliver of respect they held, and inspiring mutiny and rioting of the populace to kick the templars out of Kirkwall for good. Which naturally, the mages of Kirkwall will happily assit in. And look good in the process, in helping the common folk overthrow a tyrant.

And of course, word of what happens in Kirkwall will spread, it will start to tarnish the templars, and perhaps make people question the competance of the Chantry for a change. 

This is what I would have done personally, were I Anders, but then again, it isn't just Anders, it's Justice too. And Justice seems to go for the blunt and hamfisted methods, seemingly despising unlawful stuff. Now that the powder keg has gone off, however, I think the mages, if they hope to survive, should resort to shadier, more criminal methods like lyrium pushing/smuggling, blackmail, bribery, ect. The best tactic they have is to help speed the Chantry's own internal corruption and stagnation. The Chantry already has enough rope, they just need a little help hanging themselves with it, that's all.

It's a funny thing what BioWare did - with Anders and Justice and with Meredith and the idol. It was almost as if they were using these devices to force the story to follow a set path.

I thought it was common knowledge that they were? At the end of the interview with Varric, Cassandra ends up blaming both Meredith and Anders for the mess. They were hammering on each other's buttons quite indirectly, except Anders got in the last button push, and Meredith predictably bit. Hook, line, and sinker.

Even more curious is that Meredith really didn't give a sh*t what you did with Anders.

Modifié par Skadi_the_Evil_Elf, 18 septembre 2011 - 09:19 .

[ChaplainTappman]

@Xilizhra: But the templars broke away to fight the mages. That implies that the Divine was unwilling to set them loose, which in turn suggests a desire for a remarkably moderate response to the murder of a Grand Cleric, the destruction of a chantry, and the inciting of a war. How could you explain that moderation except for a Chantry leadership predisposed towards liberal beliefs?

I think a big problem is that much of the "Chantry" doctrine we hear comes from the mouths of templars. Are there anti-mage zealots in the Chantry proper? Certainly, just as there are anti-Protestant zealots in the Catholic Church's organization. But I think the Chantry as a whole isn't as anti-mage as people assume.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Mages certainly can't be trusted to watch over themselves either. So it appears we are at an impass.

The Mages' Collective disagrees with your notion of mages being unable to watch over themselves. They especially disagree with anyone's notion that free mages = Tevinter 2.0.

In fact, they've been working to increase the good perception of magic by making problems disappear before the Chantry gets involved.

Yeah... Those guys.. I'm sure none of them at all are rotten to the core. Especially not since they help blood mages escape the proper authorities, and are looking for scrolls detailing blood magic, oh and even better wants to increase their own power with some sort of dark ritual. Yeah, they are an altruistic lot....

They help people who were accused of being a blood mage. Anyone can accuse a mage of being a blood mage. But unless they show concrete proof that blood magic was at work, it's just a bunch of hearsay.

"We saw a blood mage" is not a compelling argument. Most people don't even know what blood magic is. Even mages don't know what blood magic looks like!
 
And even then, blood magic is not inherently evil. Also, they helped the families of blood mages escape, because who knows what the Chantry may have done to them.

They were looking for scrolls on how to combat the mind control power of blood magic, not how to actually learn it.

And you were tasked with hunting down Maleficarum who had no association with the Mages' Collective, but were threatening the safety of someone within the Collective. I'd say that's more of a public service to the community.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 septembre 2011 - 09:29 .

[Xilizhra]

ChaplainTappman wrote...

@Xilizhra: But the templars broke away to fight the mages. That implies that the Divine was unwilling to set them loose, which in turn suggests a desire for a remarkably moderate response to the murder of a Grand Cleric, the destruction of a chantry, and the inciting of a war. How could you explain that moderation except for a Chantry leadership predisposed towards liberal beliefs?

I think a big problem is that much of the "Chantry" doctrine we hear comes from the mouths of templars. Are there anti-mage zealots in the Chantry proper? Certainly, just as there are anti-Protestant zealots in the Catholic Church's organization. But I think the Chantry as a whole isn't as anti-mage as people assume.

Given that the same Divine was considering an Exalted March on Kirkwall because the mages were chafing under Meredith's control, this seems inconsistent. Though I'm not positive Cassandra and Leliana are actually sanctioned by the Divine when talking with Varric. I wonder if, perhaps, they're freelancing in a desperate attempt to stop the war for personal reasons.

[Dave of Canada]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Pro-Templar people will be really happy

"One cannot consider the fate of a single man, nor ten, nor a hundred, nor a thousand. Billions will live or die by our actions here, and we have not the luxury to count the cost."

[ChaplainTappman]

Xilizhra wrote...

Given that the same Divine was considering an Exalted March on Kirkwall because the mages were chafing under Meredith's control, this seems inconsistent. Though I'm not positive Cassandra and Leliana are actually sanctioned by the Divine when talking with Varric. I wonder if, perhaps, they're freelancing in a desperate attempt to stop the war for personal reasons.

"Exalted March" is simply the name given to a deployment of outside troops. It stands to reason that, if Meredith can't control the mages with the forces in Kirkwall, reinforcements would be sent. And that's quite an unsubstantiated spin you're putting on things, isn't it?

[Xilizhra]

ChaplainTappman wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Given that the same Divine was considering an Exalted March on Kirkwall because the mages were chafing under Meredith's control, this seems inconsistent. Though I'm not positive Cassandra and Leliana are actually sanctioned by the Divine when talking with Varric. I wonder if, perhaps, they're freelancing in a desperate attempt to stop the war for personal reasons.

"Exalted March" is simply the name given to a deployment of outside troops. It stands to reason that, if Meredith can't control the mages with the forces in Kirkwall, reinforcements would be sent. And that's quite an unsubstantiated spin you're putting on things, isn't it?

I've so far seen nothing whatsoever to convince me that the Divine has sympathetic qualities toward mages.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

ChaplainTappman wrote...

"Exalted March" is simply the name given to a deployment of outside troops. It stands to reason that, if Meredith can't control the mages with the forces in Kirkwall, reinforcements would be sent. And that's quite an unsubstantiated spin you're putting on things, isn't it?

Er, no, an Exalted March is basically the equvilant of a Crusade. In otherwords, a Holy War. Sebastian wouldn't be worried about all the thousands of innocents dying if an Exalted March was called on Kirkwall, if all it meant that Meredith was getting re-enforcements.

An Exalted March is basically a Chantry Sanctioned declaration of war.

[Wulfram]

Xilizhra wrote...

Given that the same Divine was considering an Exalted March on Kirkwall because the mages were chafing under Meredith's control, this seems inconsistent

We don't know that is the case.  All Elthina seems to know, and all Leliana confirms, is that the Divine is highly concerned.  The rest is speculation

Leliana's codex implies that the Divine has plans unknown to the rest of the Chantry's inner circle, presumably including Elthina.

[ChaplainTappman]

Xilizhra wrote...

I've so far seen nothing whatsoever to convince me that the Divine has sympathetic qualities toward mages.

Her guiding principle is of forgiveness. She sent Leliana to investigate the situation rather then take aggressive, rash action. She refused to unleash the templars. Those are not the beliefs and actions of someone violently anti-mage.

Also, it's worth noting that no one ever says anything about Justinia V considering an Exalted March in response to the situation in Kirkwall. Simply that the Divine is concerned, and that Elthina is not safe in Kirkwall.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

They help people who were accused of being a blood mage. Anyone can accuse a mage of being a blood mage. But unless they show concrete proof that blood magic was at work, it's just a bunch of hearsay.

"We saw a blood mage" is not a compelling argument. Most people don't even know what blood magic is. Even mages don't know what blood magic looks like!

If you are willing to believe them. We already know there is a presence of blood mages in the Brecillian Forest. We also know that the collective already have sympathies for blood magic users. I can certainly imagine the reports to be actually true, and the request actually being a lie.
 

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
And even then, blood magic is not inherently evil. Also, they helped the families of blood mages escape, because who knows what the Chantry may have done to them.

I don't care about good or evil. I care about the danger it inherently pose. And what would the Templars have done? They wouldn't neccesarily harm any of the families, if the families had not harbored the fugitive. Had the families been aiding a fugitive, they would be punsihed, as they were due.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
They were looking for scrolls on how to combat the mind control power of blood magic, not how to actually learn it.

If you are willing to believe them. I am not. If they wanted a tool to combat blood magic, they would have asked for the Litany of Adralla.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
And you were tasked with hunting down Maleficarum who had no association with the Mages' Collective, but were threatening the safety of someone within the Collective. I'd say that's more of a public service to the community.

I wasn't talking about that quest. I was talking about the "Places of Power" quest. Where one of the collective mages are looking for a person of questionable character to trace some glyphs at certain places of power, to help him cheat death.

[ChaplainTappman]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Er, no, an Exalted March is basically the equvilant of a Crusade. In otherwords, a Holy War. Sebastian wouldn't be worried about all the thousands of innocents dying if an Exalted March was called on Kirkwall, if all it meant that Meredith was getting re-enforcements.

An Exalted March is basically a Chantry Sanctioned declaration of war.

Actually, the Crusades were much more complicated than simple "holy war." The 1101 crusade was an effort to send reinforcements to the nascent Crusader states that had been conquered in the course of the First Crusade. It failed miserably for various reasons, largely poor planning and lack of unity amongst combatants.

An Exalted March against Kirkwall, pre-Anders' destruction of the chantry, would most likely take that form, reinforcements to bolster Meredith's strengths. And Sebastian certainly would be concerned about innocents dying if Meredith received those reinforcements and used them as she could be assumed to, in her typically brutal fashion. Especially if she were emboldened by what she would see as a sign of the Divine's support of her and her methods.

[TEWR]

If you are willing to believe them. We already know there is a presence of blood mages in the Brecillian Forest. We also know that the collective already have sympathies for blood magic users. I can certainly imagine the reports to be actually true, and the request actually being a lie.

What sympathies? We haven't seen anyone who is a clear cut blood magic user. All we've received is a bunch of hearsay on mages who "use" blood magic.

I don't care about good or evil. I care about the danger it inherently pose. And what would the Templars have done? They wouldn't neccesarily harm any of the families, if the families had not harbored the fugitive. Had the families been aiding a fugitive, they would be punsihed, as they were due.

Who's to say they'd believe them if they were telling the truth about not harboring any mage relatives? Who's to say they wouldn't overstep their bounds? Remember that these are religious fanatics primarily.

If you are willing to believe them. I am not. If they wanted a tool to combat blood magic, they would have asked for the Litany of Adralla.

The Circle is off limits to people unless they have an escort. Hadley makes it clear that a person like the Warden Commander can explore the first floor of the Circle without an escort, and the Litany of Adralla was on the second floor in Owain's storage area.

If the Warden Commander needs an escort throughout the other floors, random strangers would need one throughout the entire tower.

I wasn't talking about that quest. I was talking about the "Places of Power" quest. Where one of the collective mages are looking for a person of questionable character to trace some glyphs at certain places of power, to help him cheat death.

It's not clear that it was blood magic. Anyone would be suspicious of a man who wants to extend his life, so that's why someone was needed that wouldn't ask questions.

Even if it was, it's not a bad thing unless he makes it one. For all we know this is how the elves were immortal.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 septembre 2011 - 10:24 .