Aller au contenu

Photo

Did anyone else kill Anders?


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
2340 réponses à ce sujet

#1676
Sylvianus

Sylvianus
  • Members
  • 7 775 messages

esper wrote...

Also the priest aren't harmless. Petrice should be prime example of that. Varnell was a templar who followed her because she was a mother. She just chose to sacrifice him, because he had been stupid enough to use the Grabd Cleric seal, but the mere fact that a templar could use the seal and nobody questioned that he was under order from the Grand Cleric, proves that the chantry controls the templars.
And unlike the mages the priest chose to be priests. They can walk away form their position. The mages do not have a choice. If magic was something learned and not born with I would not have felt the same way about the issue.

 People don't become priests because the chantry is monitoring the mages, but because of many other personal reasons. Do you realize what you say ? :devil: If they want to be priests, they desserve to die because they had choices. But what choice  ?  Don't be priest or die ? For civilians don't come to church ? That's not a choice and that don't make them nor bad, nor evil, nor soldiers.  They don't have the right to have vocation in something they love so much and which they believe, to serve the maker according to what you say.  Now they can not be priests, because of details that do not concern them first. I talk about thousand of ordinary people.

And do you really think that someone who truly believe in god, morever priest, will give up its faith under the threat, and it's church, because some threat them ? I bet the majority  of ordinary people, and priests just want to be in peace, to pratice their cult in their church. That never happened in real life, you won't convince anyone who believe in god, not to come to church or pratice in the chantry, because it's nonsense to ask that to a believer, a priest, that's not a choice.

, I agree with what you say about necessity about some things to do. It's war, and sometimes, we kill people for strategic goals, etc, and we have no choice.   but that's not what bother me with what you say. There is a double discourse rather disturbing and your apology of war crime is incompatible with " it's genocide, it's evil lala, that's not good.  "

Basically, What you think, kill them all,  isn't evil because you think there is no choice ? But Meredith too thought there was no choice .

And you do have choice, not to commit mass murder. But to win. There is a big difference here.

The goal I imagine for a mage who isn't a fanatic is to defeat the chantry, to destroy their control over mages, to be free, to destroy their autority, to fight their military organization, , maybe to kill all those who have power in the chantry and who are againstt mages., not to commit the same as Meredith or mass murder on all people " because they must be all bad, all evil, no one is innocent. " What's the point to kill hight autority in the chantry when they  want peace ? And it will be probably the case.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 18 septembre 2011 - 10:54 .


#1677
EmperorSahlertz

EmperorSahlertz
  • Members
  • 8 809 messages

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If you are willing to believe them. I am not. If they wanted a tool to combat blood magic, they would have asked for the Litany of Adralla.


The Circle is off limits to people unless they have an escort. Hadley makes it clear that a person like the Warden Commander can explore the first floor of the Circle without an escort, and the Litany of Adralla was on the second floor in Owain's storage area.

If the Warden Commander needs an escort throughout the other floors, random strangers would need one throughout the entire tower.

One of the scrolls of banastor was on the third floor of the tower... Obviously entering the tower was not an issue for their request.
Edit:And if I'm not mistaken there is actually also one on the second floor. Which should further prove that entering the tower was not an issue.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 18 septembre 2011 - 10:55 .


#1678
DKJaigen

DKJaigen
  • Members
  • 1 647 messages

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

They help people who were accused of being a blood mage. Anyone can accuse a mage of being a blood mage. But unless they show concrete proof that blood magic was at work, it's just a bunch of hearsay.

"We saw a blood mage" is not a compelling argument. Most people don't even know what blood magic is. Even mages don't know what blood magic looks like!

If you are willing to believe them. We already know there is a presence of blood mages in the Brecillian Forest. We also know that the collective already have sympathies for blood magic users. I can certainly imagine the reports to be actually true, and the request actually being a lie.
 
Yes the same bloodmages you where to kill on order of the collective.  They may have bloodmages but they keep their ranks pure at least

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
And even then, blood magic is not inherently evil. Also, they helped the families of blood mages escape, because who knows what the Chantry may have done to them.

I don't care about good or evil. I care about the danger it inherently pose. And what would the Templars have done? They wouldn't neccesarily harm any of the families, if the families had not harbored the fugitive. Had the families been aiding a fugitive, they would be punsihed, as they were due.

Everything is dangerous. And for your information the families where simply targeted because of familie connection not because they harbored mages.


The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
They were looking for scrolls on how to combat the mind control power of blood magic, not how to actually learn it.

If you are willing to believe them. I am not. If they wanted a tool to combat blood magic, they would have asked for the Litany of Adralla.

LOL. they have one tool and suddenly they are mind control proof? Research is needed in such matters otherwise you always be at the whim of bloodmages and demons

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
And you were tasked with hunting down Maleficarum who had no association with the Mages' Collective, but were threatening the safety of someone within the Collective. I'd say that's more of a public service to the community.

I wasn't talking about that quest. I was talking about the "Places of Power" quest. Where one of the collective mages are looking for a person of questionable character to trace some glyphs at certain places of power, to help him cheat death.

No he says his power wanes thats it.



WTF emperor next time you make some argument check your facts first now you look like fool.

#1679
EmperorSahlertz

EmperorSahlertz
  • Members
  • 8 809 messages
http://dragonage.wik...ges'_Collective

Read them yourself then.

#1680
TEWR

TEWR
  • Members
  • 16 990 messages

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...




If you are willing to believe them. I am not. If they wanted a tool to combat blood magic, they would have asked for the Litany of Adralla.


The Circle is off limits to people unless they have an escort. Hadley makes it clear that a person like the Warden Commander can explore the first floor of the Circle without an escort, and the Litany of Adralla was on the second floor in Owain's storage area.

If the Warden Commander needs an escort throughout the other floors, random strangers would need one throughout the entire tower.

One of the scrolls of banastor was on the third floor of the tower... Obviously entering the tower was not an issue for their request.
Edit:And if I'm not mistaken there is actually also one on the second floor. Which should further prove that entering the tower was not an issue.


The same tower that was filled with Abominations and couldn't possibly have escorted anyone, so being caught by the Templar authorities wasn't an issue? Oh yea. That tower.

entering the tower wasn't an issue. lol sure. On a normal day when there aren't abominations everywhere you risk getting caught. On a Broken Circle day you've got to worry about getting killed by Abominations, demons, crazed Templars, and dragons.

EDIT: And perhaps these mages don't know about the Litany of Adralla. Perhaps they didn't know where the Litany was because they thought it might have been in another country. Perhaps they only knew about where the first two scrolls were, since they asked someone to look throughout Ferelden.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 septembre 2011 - 11:31 .


#1681
EmperorSahlertz

EmperorSahlertz
  • Members
  • 8 809 messages

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...




If you are willing to believe them. I am not. If they wanted a tool to combat blood magic, they would have asked for the Litany of Adralla.


The Circle is off limits to people unless they have an escort. Hadley makes it clear that a person like the Warden Commander can explore the first floor of the Circle without an escort, and the Litany of Adralla was on the second floor in Owain's storage area.

If the Warden Commander needs an escort throughout the other floors, random strangers would need one throughout the entire tower.

One of the scrolls of banastor was on the third floor of the tower... Obviously entering the tower was not an issue for their request.
Edit:And if I'm not mistaken there is actually also one on the second floor. Which should further prove that entering the tower was not an issue.


The same tower that was filled with Abominations and couldn't possibly have escorted anyone, so being caught by the Templar authorities wasn't an issue? Oh yea. That tower.

entering the tower wasn't an issue. lol sure. On a normal day when there aren't abominations everywhere you risk getting caught. On a Broken Circle day you've got to worry about getting killed by Abominations, demons, crazed Templars, and dragons.

EDIT: And perhaps these mages don't know about the Litany of Adralla. Perhaps they didn't know where the Litany was because they thought it might have been in another country. Perhaps they only knew about where the first two scrolls were, since they asked someone to look throughout Ferelden.

But they knew about some obscure scrolls of forbidden magic? Right.. That is likely. And it isn't common knowledge that the tower is overrun with abominations, and even if they knew, then if they truely wanted a tool agaisnt blood magic, they would still have asked for the litany (since that is probably far more well known than the scrolls of banastor).

#1682
TEWR

TEWR
  • Members
  • 16 990 messages

But they knew about some obscure scrolls of forbidden magic? Right.. That is likely. And it isn't common knowledge that the tower is overrun with abominations, and even if they knew, then if they truely wanted a tool agaisnt blood magic, they would still have asked for the litany (since that is probably far more well known than the scrolls of banastor).


That's not what I was saying.

You're saying that it's easier to find the Litany of Adralla. On what grounds? On a normal day the Circle is closely guarded. On an Abomination spree day, it's filled to the brim with dangers. There is no easy access to the Litany because both options have a risk.

The Friends of Red Jenny, who are as enigmatic as they come, were unable to infiltrate the Circle to grab a box and leave successfully. Because the area is guarded.

There's no evidence that the Litany of Adralla is known to anyone outside of the Circles and Chantry. It's possible that it was a hedge mage that requested the scrolls and not a rogue mage (the latter being a former Circle mage). If it was so well known outside of the Circle and Chantry system, don't you think monarchs would be asking that all the Templars and the national armies be armed with copies of it? Don't you think that something that's existed for centuries would've been used to the fullest against the maleficarum who kill innocents?

I'm trying to recall what the actual quest thing from the Collective says. A picture would be nice to see. Perhaps Banastor was a well known apostate?

#1683
EmperorSahlertz

EmperorSahlertz
  • Members
  • 8 809 messages
I'm saying the litany is a proven tool against blood magic, and is in the very same circle the collective (which have members within the Circles) sends you. Yet they want you to gather scrolls which teaches you how to learn blood magic, not combat it. And that smells far away of deception.

#1684
TEWR

TEWR
  • Members
  • 16 990 messages

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'm saying the litany is a proven tool against blood magic, and is in the very same circle the collective (which have members within the Circles) sends you. Yet they want you to gather scrolls which teaches you how to learn blood magic, not combat it. And that smells far away of deception.



We don't know if any Fereldan Circle mages are among the Collective. Is it likely? Sure. But we don't actually know. First Enchanter Josephus' report on the Collective doesn't specify whether some of the mages from every Circle are a part, or if it's a select few Circles.

He does say the number is growing.


Despite the Loyalists' grasp on the mages' political community, many Libertarians and Aequitarians have begun to see eye to eye with respect to the Chantry's role in a mage's daily life. A growing number of mages, particularly those whose magic never strays from the Maker's mandate, feel that the Chantry's constant oversight is a burden upon their creativity and their very will, and one that hinders their ability to do their work.

These mages, along with a number of hedge wizards who work their arts outside the Chantry's influence, have formed a shadow-guild of sorts, a mages' collective, wherein members can submit requests and have them seen to without judgement. This collective manages to work in relative secrecy, their members discreet and their clients anonymous. As of yet, this collective has seen no sanction from the templars, and there has been no sign that its members are practicing magic of which the Maker would not approve.

Still, practicing magic outside of the influence of the Chantry is a dream for some and a dangerous notion for others, and many believe that it is only a matter of time before the veil of secrecy is lifted and the mages' collective is brought to swift and brutal justice.

--From A Treatise on Magic and Politics, by First Enchanter Josephus.



Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 19 septembre 2011 - 12:15 .


#1685
EmperorSahlertz

EmperorSahlertz
  • Members
  • 8 809 messages

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'm saying the litany is a proven tool against blood magic, and is in the very same circle the collective (which have members within the Circles) sends you. Yet they want you to gather scrolls which teaches you how to learn blood magic, not combat it. And that smells far away of deception.



We don't know if any Fereldan Circle mages are among the Collective. Is it likely? Sure. But we don't actually know. First Enchanter Josephus' report on the Collective doesn't specify whether some of the mages from every Circle are a part, or if it's a select few Circles.


Despite the Loyalists' grasp on the mages' political community, many Libertarians and Aequitarians have begun to see eye to eye with respect to the Chantry's role in a mage's daily life. A growing number of mages, particularly those whose magic never strays from the Maker's mandate, feel that the Chantry's constant oversight is a burden upon their creativity and their very will, and one that hinders their ability to do their work.

These mages, along with a number of hedge wizards who work their arts outside the Chantry's influence, have formed a shadow-guild of sorts, a mages' collective, wherein members can submit requests and have them seen to without judgement. This collective manages to work in relative secrecy, their members discreet and their clients anonymous. As of yet, this collective has seen no sanction from the templars, and there has been no sign that its members are practicing magic of which the Maker would not approve.

Still, practicing magic outside of the influence of the Chantry is a dream for some and a dangerous notion for others, and many believe that it is only a matter of time before the veil of secrecy is lifted and the mages' collective is brought to swift and brutal justice.

--From A Treatise on Magic and Politics, by First Enchanter Josephus.


Nevertheless there ARE collective mages within the Circles, and teh Circles certainly have knowledge of the Litany of Adralla.

#1686
TEWR

TEWR
  • Members
  • 16 990 messages
Within some Circles. We don't know if they're in all of the Circles. We only know they're in some Circles.

But now we have to ask ourselves this: Did the mage who requested the Scrolls of Banastor actually know about the Litany? Is the mage that requested the Scrolls a former Circle mage? Or is he still one?

This is why I'm trying to remember the actual text when you accept the missive.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 19 septembre 2011 - 12:26 .


#1687
Xilizhra

Xilizhra
  • Members
  • 30 873 messages

Nevertheless there ARE collective mages within the Circles, and teh Circles certainly have knowledge of the Litany of Adralla.

If it's that well-known, why would the Collective need to ask for the Litany? In any case, it only works against mind control, and only mind control spells that are in the process of happening right then. There are many more uses for blood magic.

#1688
TEWR

TEWR
  • Members
  • 16 990 messages

Xilizhra wrote...


Nevertheless there ARE collective mages within the Circles, and teh Circles certainly have knowledge of the Litany of Adralla.

If it's that well-known, why would the Collective need to ask for the Litany? In any case, it only works against mind control, and only mind control spells that are in the process of happening right then. There are many more uses for blood magic.



That's a good point about it being well-known. Also, if they had agents in the Ferelden Circle, why didn't they just ask them to take the Litany?

It should be noted that the Scrolls of Banastor deal with how one learns how to control minds. Mind Control comes up all the time in each of the Scroll entries.

#1689
phaonica

phaonica
  • Members
  • 3 435 messages

Xilizhra wrote...

Making him suffer is unimportant to me. There's far too much going on, and if the action that'll lead to the most good is somehow rewarding Anders, well, that's the action I'll take.


So justice for the murdered civilians is not as important as justice for mages? Killing innocent mages is an executable offense but killing innocent civilians isn't?

#1690
TEWR

TEWR
  • Members
  • 16 990 messages

phaonica wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Making him suffer is unimportant to me. There's far too much going on, and if the action that'll lead to the most good is somehow rewarding Anders, well, that's the action I'll take.


So justice for the murdered civilians is not as important as justice for mages? Killing innocent mages is an executable offense but killing innocent civilians isn't?


I'd say that immediate justice shouldn't be exacted. I think it's reasonable to believe that you'll bring him to justice after he helps save the mages.

Work to atone for the crime by saving the mages, and atone even further by submitting to justice.

#1691
Xilizhra

Xilizhra
  • Members
  • 30 873 messages

phaonica wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Making him suffer is unimportant to me. There's far too much going on, and if the action that'll lead to the most good is somehow rewarding Anders, well, that's the action I'll take.


So justice for the murdered civilians is not as important as justice for mages? Killing innocent mages is an executable offense but killing innocent civilians isn't?

If they're dead, they're dead. Pursuing justice for the dead is a quixotic waste. My only interest is in safeguarding and freeing the living, and that includes nonmages; if Anders continues to be a danger to nonmages, I'll take him out then if I must. However, the circumstances of this act were so unique that I can't reliably say that he'll kill similar numbers of noncombatants in the future. Which is why I don't kill him.

#1692
phaonica

phaonica
  • Members
  • 3 435 messages

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'd say that immediate justice shouldn't be exacted. I think it's reasonable to believe that you'll bring him to justice after he helps save the mages.

Work to atone for the crime by saving the mages, and atone even further by submitting to justice.


Alright, I will concede that the circle mages Anders put into danger don't deserve to have less protection due to his crime. Nor do I think it is just to punish the mage cause to the ends of avenging the lives wrongly taken in the name of that cause. However, once the battle is over, I would expect Anders to be brought to justice.

#1693
Esbatty

Esbatty
  • Members
  • 3 760 messages
I shanked him twice, and teared up each time. But that was my inner Warden tearing up, Anders was not only my subordinate/conscript, and fellow Warden, but also my friend. My inner Hawkes were pissed when they put that mad dog down. He made a series of terrible life decisions... oddly enough each Hawke that put Anders out of his misery was a Mage. Soldier Hawkes understand where he is coming from, and Rogue Hawkes really don't give a nug's arse.

#1694
DKJaigen

DKJaigen
  • Members
  • 1 647 messages

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'm saying the litany is a proven tool against blood magic, and is in the very same circle the collective (which have members within the Circles) sends you. Yet they want you to gather scrolls which teaches you how to learn blood magic, not combat it. And that smells far away of deception.


I do not know what kind of ****ed up world your coming from emperor but before you can solve a problem you need to studie the problem. Then you can create a solution. This also goes for bloodmagic this also goes for adralla herself. But thanks to the "wisdom" of the chantry mages cannot studie bloodmagic or demonlogy even to create counters to it.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 19 septembre 2011 - 08:29 .


#1695
EmperorSahlertz

EmperorSahlertz
  • Members
  • 8 809 messages

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'm saying the litany is a proven tool against blood magic, and is in the very same circle the collective (which have members within the Circles) sends you. Yet they want you to gather scrolls which teaches you how to learn blood magic, not combat it. And that smells far away of deception.


Im do not know what kind of ****ed up world your coming from emperor but before you can solve a problem you need to studie the problem. Then you can create a solution. This also goes for bloodmagic this also goes for adralla herself. But thanks to the "wisdom" of the chantry mages cannot studie bloodmagic or demonlogy even to create counters to it.

The tool is ALREADY made. The Litany is proven to counter mind control. Any furhter study is unneccesary, or at worst redundant. If they truely wanted to find a coutner to mind control, they would study the Litnay, not scrolls that actually teach you mind control, not how to counter it.

#1696
DKJaigen

DKJaigen
  • Members
  • 1 647 messages

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'm saying the litany is a proven tool against blood magic, and is in the very same circle the collective (which have members within the Circles) sends you. Yet they want you to gather scrolls which teaches you how to learn blood magic, not combat it. And that smells far away of deception.


Im do not know what kind of ****ed up world your coming from emperor but before you can solve a problem you need to studie the problem. Then you can create a solution. This also goes for bloodmagic this also goes for adralla herself. But thanks to the "wisdom" of the chantry mages cannot studie bloodmagic or demonlogy even to create counters to it.

The tool is ALREADY made. The Litany is proven to counter mind control. Any furhter study is unneccesary, or at worst redundant. If they truely wanted to find a coutner to mind control, they would study the Litnay, not scrolls that actually teach you mind control, not how to counter it.


One tool to prevent mind control and it has limited power. What about demon summoning? dream walking? blood manipulation? And Adralla did study mind control as well. Your arguments are pure fail once again.

#1697
Urzon

Urzon
  • Members
  • 979 messages

The tool is ALREADY made. The Litany is proven to counter mind control. Any furhter study is unneccesary, or at worst redundant. If they truely wanted to find a coutner to mind control, they would study the Litnay, not scrolls that actually teach you mind control, not how to counter it.



The Litany of Adralla disrupts the casting of mind control spells. Use the Litany whenever a creature tries to dominate another with magic, and it will interrupt the casting. Once the spell is in effect and a character is under a blood mage's power, it is too late.
--From Codex entry: The Litany of Adralla

[/i]It only counters the spell. It in no way counters active mind control already in place.

#1698
TEWR

TEWR
  • Members
  • 16 990 messages

Urzon wrote...

The tool is ALREADY made. The Litany is proven to counter mind control. Any furhter study is unneccesary, or at worst redundant. If they truely wanted to find a coutner to mind control, they would study the Litnay, not scrolls that actually teach you mind control, not how to counter it.



The Litany of Adralla disrupts the casting of mind control spells. Use the Litany whenever a creature tries to dominate another with magic, and it will interrupt the casting. Once the spell is in effect and a character is under a blood mage's power, it is too late.
--From Codex entry: The Litany of Adralla

[/i]It only counters the spell. It in no way counters active mind control already in place.



Huh. And there we go. The Litany isn't worth as much to the mage studying how to counter mind control that's already happened. Perhaps the mage that wanted the scrolls is trying to find some way to save someone he knows from being a blood thrall, and the Scrolls are the only helpful lead he has since the Litany doesn't work against already active mind control.

#1699
EmperorSahlertz

EmperorSahlertz
  • Members
  • 8 809 messages
And why would the scrolls of banastor be of any help? All they teach is how, the Litany is a tool that prevents. If the litany were further studied and perfected, it could possibly cure.
The scrolls offer no more answers than the litany. But the litany is at least a tool that is already proven its effectiveness and worth, and should be further perfected. The scrolls should be burned.

#1700
DKJaigen

DKJaigen
  • Members
  • 1 647 messages

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And why would the scrolls of banastor be of any help? All they teach is how,


You just answerd your own stupid question