2340 réponses à ce sujet

[Joy Divison]

I don't know if it would have defused the situation, but Elthina neglected her duty for not dismissing Meredith when it was clear she had overstepped her authority

[Cobra's_back]

Minxie18 wrote...

 My mage Hawke sided with the Templars and killed her friend Anders. It was heartbreaking but in that particular playthrough I roleplayed my Hawke into deciding Anders' had gone too far. Why couldn't he have just blown up the Templars instead and leave the poor Grand Cleric out of it? Dammit, Anders!

But gawwd, that cutscene was agonizing for me. Watching her knife him and the look on his face as he lay dying, all I could think about was the sweet, lighthearted guy he was in Awakening and how everything had gone so wrong for him because he tried to help Justice.  

I felt the same way. Why couldn't he blow up the Templars and free the mages.

[Cobra's_back]

I would have helped him storm the gates to protest and overthrow Meredith. His decision was repulsive to me. Killing an unarmed person just isn’t cool. Meredith on the other hand would have to set down or get out her trusty lyrium sword so she can take on the Hawke.

[Kavatica]

The one time I killed Anders and sided with the Templars I felt so wrong and evil. It was like that one time I killed Morrigan. Killing someone who doesn't fight back (and someone that you might have been in a relationship with) just feels messed up. I don't care if Sebastian does flip out...I don't believe in capital punishment.

Honestly, after my first few playthroughs when I realized that Anders was going to do what he was going to do and there was no way to stop him, I found it much more fun to just play through as a fellow mage rebel. And from a strategy perspective, things are easier when you keep a healer around.

Modifié par Kavatica, 12 mars 2012 - 06:00 .

[Lazy Jer]

This is off-topic to be sure, but I still don't understand why anyone wants to kill Morrigan in DA:O.

Dragging myself back ON topic, though, I do understand why someone would feel the need to kill Anders.  His bomb did end innocent lives.  If one is a believer in capital punishment, as I tend to be, then it's sort of a no brainer.  If one isn't then they'd spare him.

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 12 mars 2012 - 06:21 .

[Kavatica]

Lazy Jer wrote...

This is off-topic to be sure, but I still don't understand why anyone wants to kill Morrigan in DA:O.

I meant during Witch Hunt. I was kind of pissed because she slept with my boyfriend and didn't give me much of a choice about it. Still...the look on her face made me feel awful. I replayed it and let her go next time. But it was a bit cathartic, not going to lie.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Kavatica wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...

This is off-topic to be sure, but I still don't understand why anyone wants to kill Morrigan in DA:O.

I meant during Witch Hunt. I was kind of pissed because she slept with my boyfriend and didn't give me much of a choice about it. Still...the look on her face made me feel awful. I replayed it and let her go next time. But it was a bit cathartic, not going to lie.

She slept with your boyfriend to save his and your own life, and yet you are pissed at her?

[Kavatica]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
She slept with your boyfriend to save his and your own life, and yet you are pissed at her?

But it was that or she would leave me! I wanted to say no and go off and die and still have her stick around. But I know - I'm a horrible person.  I'm not going to lie, I think my first playthrough I missed a lot of the nuances about her personality and the good things about her. She's one of my favourite characters now, though. 

[Kavatica]

But bringing it back to topic, how is killing Anders any less of a betrayal than killing Morrigan? Especially if he was your lover - and considering the way that he treats you and how he helps save your sibling in the Deep Roads. Yes, he kills a lot of people. But isn't there a big chance that the OGB is going to do the same thing?

Modifié par Kavatica, 13 mars 2012 - 06:40 .

[DarkAmaranth1966]

I usually kill him, it makes no sense that he blow up a church that helps orphans and the like when the problem is Meredith who IS NOT in the chantry. Now had she been in there, meeting with Elthina, then sure, blow it up but as it was done, I see no reason other than an excuse to end the game.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Anders' issue wasn't with Meredith, but with the Circle as a whole. He wanted to force action, from both mages and the Chantry. That, of course, still doesn't justify his actions, but it explains why he didn't go after Meredith individually.

[esper]

Killing Meridith and saving the Kirkwall circle is not Anders' goal. His goal is the Circle system to which he needs a war. If he had attacked Meridith he was just another desperate apostate attacking a templar. What he needs is to make a statement by going after the symbol of the system which is the Chantry.
Killing Meridith would just have accomplished something for Kirkwall and the Kirkwall circle.

[Lazy Jer]

Kavatica wrote...

But bringing it back to topic, how is killing Anders any less of a betrayal than killing Morrigan? Especially if he was your lover - and considering the way that he treats you and how he helps save your sibling in the Deep Roads. Yes, he kills a lot of people. But isn't there a big chance that the OGB is going to do the same thing?

The difference there is that Morrigan's kid hasn't killed anyone yet.  We don't know if he will or won't.  From what I've read all we know is that he's out there and the he will play a part in future games.  Thus Morrigan hasn't cause the death of lots of people, nor do we have any evidence that the OGB will cause the deaths of lots of people.

Anders, on the other hand, actually has caused the deaths of lots of people.  It happens right in front of you.  That's the difference.

[Kavatica]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Kavatica wrote...

But bringing it back to topic, how is killing Anders any less of a betrayal than killing Morrigan? Especially if he was your lover - and considering the way that he treats you and how he helps save your sibling in the Deep Roads. Yes, he kills a lot of people. But isn't there a big chance that the OGB is going to do the same thing?

The difference there is that Morrigan's kid hasn't killed anyone yet.  We don't know if he will or won't.  From what I've read all we know is that he's out there and the he will play a part in future games.  Thus Morrigan hasn't cause the death of lots of people, nor do we have any evidence that the OGB will cause the deaths of lots of people.

Anders, on the other hand, actually has caused the deaths of lots of people.  It happens right in front of you.  That's the difference.

Valid point, but I still think the OGB is going to get up to some sinister things. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure Morrigan would be right on board with Anders' actions, given her opinion of the Chantry and the Circle. I mean, the woman actually Approves if you taint sacred ashes and run around killing puppies. I'm just saying... I don't see how  anyone can condemn Anders while defending Morrigan. To me, they are two sides of the same coin.

[Lazy Jer]

Alexa_ wrote...

The problem in Kirkwall is Meredith, but  Anders' pursuit is to achieve equality and freedom for all the mages in Thedas. Killing Meredith wouldn't change anything! Destroying the chantry as a symbol of nearly 1000 years of suppression and torture ... that's what shakes up the people in whole Thedas!

That may explain why Anders did it.  But it doesn't mean that it is justifiable for him to get away scott-free with killing innocent people.  If he does then Mother Petrice was justifed in killing Seamus.  After all her goal was to protect the people of Kirkwall from the Qunari.  But she isn't.  She killed was responsible for the deaths of innocent people (Seamus, the Qunari entorage).  She was out of line and appropriate punishment.

[Kavatica]

Lazy Jer wrote...

That may explain why Anders did it.  But it doesn't mean that it is justifiable for him to get away scott-free with killing innocent people.  If he does then Mother Petrice was justifed in killing Seamus.  After all her goal was to protect the people of Kirkwall from the Qunari.  But she isn't.  She killed was responsible for the deaths of innocent people (Seamus, the Qunari entorage).  She was out of line and appropriate punishment.

Kind of off-topic but don't you wish you had the option to kill Mother Petrice? I hate that you don't. Especially after the way she leads you around and talks down to you and manipulates you into doing her dirty work. And then the Qunari get to be the ones who take her out. So unfair. To compensate I just take the chance to tell her that I hate her guts whenever the dialogue option arises.

[Lazy Jer]

Kavatica wrote...

Valid point, but I still think the OGB is going to get up to some sinister things. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure Morrigan would be right on board with Anders' actions, given her opinion of the Chantry and the Circle. I mean, the woman actually Approves if you taint sacred ashes and run around killing puppies. I'm just saying... I don't see how  anyone can condemn Anders while defending Morrigan. To me, they are two sides of the same coin.

Well...hmmm...knowing what I know about Morrigan she might approve of Anders' actions, or given that she has a fair amount of distain for the Circle Mage themselves as well as the Chantry and the Circle, she might just roll her eyes and say "As long as it doesn't cross into my yard, have fun with your little war."  But there is a good chance she'd approve of the actions. 

I'm fairly certain, however, that she wouldn't actually plant the bomb.  Not out of any sort of soft-heartedness on her part for the chantry faithful, but out of a simple matter of the fact that it's none of her business.  She doesn't care enough about those involved to stick her neck out.  If she did plant the bomb, or do something similar, if I was able to distance myself from my personal opinions about the characters (I like Morrigan more then Anders) then I would advocate the same punishment.  Again it's in reference to what the characters have actually done rather then what they might do.

Edit:  ...and yes, I do hate Petrice, and if the Qunari didn't give her that fancy new pancreas-piercing, I probably would have.  In addition to just being arrogant, she kills innocent people.

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 14 mars 2012 - 07:46 .

[Silfren]

Kavatica wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...

That may explain why Anders did it.  But it doesn't mean that it is justifiable for him to get away scott-free with killing innocent people.  If he does then Mother Petrice was justifed in killing Seamus.  After all her goal was to protect the people of Kirkwall from the Qunari.  But she isn't.  She killed was responsible for the deaths of innocent people (Seamus, the Qunari entorage).  She was out of line and appropriate punishment.

Kind of off-topic but don't you wish you had the option to kill Mother Petrice? I hate that you don't. Especially after the way she leads you around and talks down to you and manipulates you into doing her dirty work. And then the Qunari get to be the ones who take her out. So unfair. To compensate I just take the chance to tell her that I hate her guts whenever the dialogue option arises.

I love how the Did Anyone Else Kill Anders thread is still going strong, albeit rather off-topically.  =)

Anyway, you could, in a roundabout way, kill Petrice.  I'm not sure how to achieve this, but its confirmed that there is an ending to Petrice's quest line that doesn't end with her being executed by a qunari agent.  So technically, if you assume that Petrice is in the Chantry when Anders explodes it, she goes boom right along with the Grand Cleric's useless self.  I personally find that option rather satisfying.  =)

[Kavatica]

Silfren wrote...

Anyway, you could, in a roundabout way, kill Petrice.  I'm not sure how to achieve this, but its confirmed that there is an ending to Petrice's quest line that doesn't end with her being executed by a qunari agent.  So technically, if you assume that Petrice is in the Chantry when Anders explodes it, she goes boom right along with the Grand Cleric's useless self.  I personally find that option rather satisfying.  =)

Wait, what? I have been wondering if this was possible. *goes off to research and then try*

Edit: Researched and you are correct, but apparently this involves siding with her and Varnell and their merry band of wackjobs. That's just...ew. Still tempted to try this out, though.

Modifié par Kavatica, 14 mars 2012 - 08:00 .

[Kavatica]

Alexa_ wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...

Alexa_ wrote...

The problem in Kirkwall is Meredith, but  Anders' pursuit is to achieve equality and freedom for all the mages in Thedas. Killing Meredith wouldn't change anything! Destroying the chantry as a symbol of nearly 1000 years of suppression and torture ... that's what shakes up the people in whole Thedas!

That may explain why Anders did it.  But it doesn't mean that it is justifiable for him to get away scott-free with killing innocent people.  If he does then Mother Petrice was justifed in killing Seamus.  After all her goal was to protect the people of Kirkwall from the Qunari.  But she isn't.  She killed was responsible for the deaths of innocent people (Seamus, the Qunari entorage).  She was out of line and appropriate punishment.

Sorry, but I don't think that Mother Petrice is an apposite comparison ... she didn't protect the people of Kirkwall from the Qunari ... she just wanted to hinder them from converting to the Qun!

While Anders' aim was to give equality and freedom to all the mages ... he wanted them to get the same rights as anyone else in Thedas! Yes, in the end he killed people to achieve this ... but who knows, if they were really "innocent"?

If you want to compare sparing him with anything comparable than have a look at Isabela. She made the Qunari kill a lot of people (maybe innocents too?) just because she had stolen their relic ... for selfish reason! Would you kill HER, if the game gave you the choice?

I'm going to play the devil's advocate here and say that Mother Petrice and Anders are similar in the sense that they are both making assumptions about what will be good for other people. They both believe that the ends justify the means, and do not allow the people that they are supposedly helping to make their own decisions.

As far as Isabela goes, you can hand Isabela over to the Qunari. And although Fenris points out that they wouldn't have killed her, it sounds like the outcome would have been much worse than stabbing her in the back, a la Anders. I have yet to do this, because I love the girl too much,  but still...you can.

[Lazy Jer]

Alexa_ wrote...

Sorry, but I don't think that Mother Petrice is an apposite comparison ... she didn't protect the people of Kirkwall from the Qunari ... she just wanted to hinder them from converting to the Qun!

While Anders' aim was to give equality and freedom to all the mages ... he wanted them to get the same rights as anyone else in Thedas! Yes, in the end he killed people to achieve this ... but who knows, if they were really "innocent"?

If you want to compare sparing him with anything comparable than have a look at Isabela. She made the Qunari kill a lot of people (maybe innocents too?) just because she had stolen their relic ... for selfish reason! Would you kill HER, if the game gave you the choice?

The similarity, though, is that she believed she was doing something for a righous cause and was not above killing innocent people to do it.  She would rationalize that Seamus and the Qunari Envoy weren't innocent, but that doesn't change the fact that they were.

I don't think Isabella isn't an appropriate conparison either.  She stole the book, yes, but she didn't even know what the book was, so she certainly couldn't have predicted that taking it would lead to an invasion by the Qunari.  If it was anything it was negligence, and that's a maybe since Qunari sacked the city more because of treatment of Qunari by the people of the city (Seamus, the Qunari envoy, the elves that had converted just before the confetti hit the fan).

Anders knew exactly what he was doing and knew that it would result in innocent (yes...innocent...which may be something we'll have to agree to disagree on) people dying.  So did Mother Petrice.  He believed that those innocent deaths were a means justified by his intended end, so did Mother Petrice.

What I'm saying is that it is a slippery slope when you decide that someone can literally get away with murder because the cause is good.  If Anders is allowed to get away with it then it can lead to about a half dozen Petrice Juniors running around bumping people off because of a "just cause".

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 14 mars 2012 - 08:19 .

[Silfren]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Alexa_ wrote...

The problem in Kirkwall is Meredith, but  Anders' pursuit is to achieve equality and freedom for all the mages in Thedas. Killing Meredith wouldn't change anything! Destroying the chantry as a symbol of nearly 1000 years of suppression and torture ... that's what shakes up the people in whole Thedas!

That may explain why Anders did it.  But it doesn't mean that it is justifiable for him to get away scott-free with killing innocent people.  If he does then Mother Petrice was justifed in killing Seamus.  After all her goal was to protect the people of Kirkwall from the Qunari.  But she isn't.  She killed was responsible for the deaths of innocent people (Seamus, the Qunari entorage).  She was out of line and appropriate punishment.

Petrice wasn't trying to protect the people from the Qunari invaders.  She was specifically trying to prevent the qunari religion from taking influence away from the Chantry.  That was her concern: not the people's actual welfare, but making sure that the Chantry didn't have a competitor. 

I don't think that "if this, then that" works well as a comparison between Anders' actions and Petrice's, because it assumes their intentions are equivalent, and they aren't.  Petrice was working to preserve the Chantry's influence among the people.  Anders was working to achieve a war for mage freedom.  Hugely different goals there.