2340 réponses à ce sujet

[Lazy Jer]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If someone had stolen the Statue of Liberty, but turned it back, you can bet your ass that the Americans wouldn't just let the person go... Despite the fact that the artifact is returned, a crime was still commited, and crimes call for punishment. Or in the case of the Qunari, reeducation.

Your example fails to acknowledge that Hawke and Co. had just cut their way through several Qunari just to get to that point where they're returning the book.  Clearly Hawke is capable of dealing out more death if needs be.  The Arishok was faced with a choice.  Take the Tome back home and forget reeducating the thief responsible, or risk death of either (a) himself or ( himself and the rest of his crew for the sake of bringing this one woman back to Par Vollen.  In that situation wouldn't it be more pragmatic to say "Tradition be damned, I'm not risking more of my men when I've got what I actually came here for"?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Lazy Jer wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If someone had stolen the Statue of Liberty, but turned it back, you can bet your ass that the Americans wouldn't just let the person go... Despite the fact that the artifact is returned, a crime was still commited, and crimes call for punishment. Or in the case of the Qunari, reeducation.

Your example fails to acknowledge that Hawke and Co. had just cut their way through several Qunari just to get to that point where they're returning the book.  Clearly Hawke is capable of dealing out more death if needs be.  The Arishok was faced with a choice.  Take the Tome back home and forget reeducating the thief responsible, or risk death of either (a) himself or ( himself and the rest of his crew for the sake of bringing this one woman back to Par Vollen.  In that situation wouldn't it be more pragmatic to say "Tradition be damned, I'm not risking more of my men when I've got what I actually came here for"?

And you fail to acknowledge the Qunari's sense of duty. It was the Arishok's duty to bring the theif back with him, therefore he had no choice but to do so, unless defeated in a challenge for the theif's life.

[caradoc2000]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It was the Arishok's duty to bring the theif back with him, therefore he had no choice but to do so, unless defeated in a challenge for the theif's life.

Even so, the Arishok himself had just refused to hand over the elves (who had committed a murder, not just theft like Isabela).

[Koire]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And you fail to acknowledge the Qunari's sense of duty. It was the Arishok's duty to bring the theif back with him, therefore he had no choice but to do so, unless defeated in a challenge for the theif's life.

This)

Modifié par Koire, 15 mars 2012 - 10:19 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

caradoc2000 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It was the Arishok's duty to bring the theif back with him, therefore he had no choice but to do so, unless defeated in a challenge for the theif's life.

Even so, the Arishok himself had just refused to hand over the elves (who had committed a murder, not just theft like Isabela).

Again, it is the Arishok's duty to protect his people. Furthermore, whatever Videthari were before they joined the Qun is irrelevant. They will be educated in the Qun, and the Qun will find the proper place in society for them.

[caradoc2000]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Again, it is the Arishok's duty to protect his people. Furthermore, whatever Videthari were before they joined the Qun is irrelevant. They will be educated in the Qun, and the Qun will find the proper place in society for them.

I'd call that double standards. I'd call it something else if these weren't family-friendly forums.

[Urzon]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If someone had stolen the Statue of Liberty, but turned it back, you can bet your ass that the Americans wouldn't just let the person go... Despite the fact that the artifact is returned, a crime was still commited, and crimes call for punishment. Or in the case of the Qunari, reeducation.

Does that make Isabela Carmen Sandiego in this equation? Because if that does, I don't think the game can handle that much thievery awesomeness.

[EmperorSahlertz]

caradoc2000 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Again, it is the Arishok's duty to protect his people. Furthermore, whatever Videthari were before they joined the Qun is irrelevant. They will be educated in the Qun, and the Qun will find the proper place in society for them.

I'd call that double standards. I'd call it something else if these weren't family-friendly forums.

Why is that double standards? He was fully expecting everyone to protect their people. He would no more expect Kirkwall to hand over Tal Vasoth they were harboring, than he would handover criminal videthari. The difference is, he wouldn't care wether or not Kirkwall wouldn't hand over Tal Vasoth, or if they want to claim the criminal Videthari. The Arishok's duty demands that he protects the Videthari, and it demands that he punishes the Tal Vasoth. It is as simple as that.

[Lazy Jer]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And you fail to acknowledge the Qunari's sense of duty. It was the Arishok's duty to bring the theif back with him, therefore he had no choice but to do so, unless defeated in a challenge for the theif's life.

Actually I'm not failing to acknowledge it.  Quite the opposite, actually, it's what I'm talking about.  The Arishok had what he came for but he was honorbound to bring in the theif as well.  This decision was quiet literally fatal for him (at least it was in my play-through).  I was honor that caused him to risk his life in a dual with Hawke and it was honor that killed him.  *shrug* It's just one of the many reasons why I'd never join the Qunari.

Now regarding the issue of his not turning over the elves.  This is what happens when laws clash.  The law of Kirkwall demanded that the elves be tried for murder.  The law of the Qun determines that when one accepts the Qun his past crimes are forgiven (unless I'm misreading).  So the Arishok was following his rulebook and Aveline was following hers.  There were probably diplomatic ways of handling it, but the Arishok is no diplomat.

[TEWR]

but the Arishok is no diplomat.

Eh, he was a decent diplomat when he was tolerating Kirkwall. He should've been dealing with Meredith as well as Dumar -- since the former is the real power in Kirkwall -- but he did send delegates to converse with the Viscount.

By the time the Elves have killed the city guardsman in retaliation for the rape of their sister, he was fed up with Kirkwall and was in no mood to be diplomatic anymore.

...well, as diplomatic as he could be given that it wasn't his job under the Qun.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Lazy Jer wrote...
Actually I'm not failing to acknowledge it.  Quite the opposite, actually, it's what I'm talking about.  The Arishok had what he came for but he was honorbound to bring in the theif as well.  This decision was quiet literally fatal for him (at least it was in my play-through).  I was honor that caused him to risk his life in a dual with Hawke and it was honor that killed him.  *shrug* It's just one of the many reasons why I'd never join the Qunari.

 
Because they believe in, and are willing to die for, something greater than themselves? 

Lazy Jer wrote... 
Now regarding the issue of his not turning over the elves.  This is what happens when laws clash.  The law of Kirkwall demanded that the elves be tried for murder.  The law of the Qun determines that when one accepts the Qun his past crimes are forgiven (unless I'm misreading).  So the Arishok was following his rulebook and Aveline was following hers.  There were probably diplomatic ways of handling it, but the Arishok is no diplomat.

Their past crimes may be forgiven, but not forgotten. The Videthari are gonna go through a full test from the Tamassrans, who will probably take note that the person they are tested, failed to follow the laws of his previous government.

[TEWR]

Their past crimes may be forgiven, but not forgotten. The Videthari are gonna go through a full test from the Tamassrans, who will probably take note that the person they are tested, failed to follow the laws of his previous government.

I'm not so sure. The Arishok says that sometimes taking vigilante action is required. The Arishok seemed to condone what they did.

[Dave of Canada]

Wait, Anders can live? I didn't know.

*stab*

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Their past crimes may be forgiven, but not forgotten. The Videthari are gonna go through a full test from the Tamassrans, who will probably take note that the person they are tested, failed to follow the laws of his previous government.

I'm not so sure. The Arishok says that sometimes taking vigilante action is required. The Arishok seemed to condone what they did.

In the case of these individuals, yes he probably did.

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

If the Arishok isn't a diplomat, who is? I thought the military was the only branch that dealt with other nations substantially.

The antaam are the eyes and ears of Qunari society, but I don't think they're the mouth. They observe and listen, but they don't really speak about Qunari society to outsiders.

Sten says as much, claiming that he's not fit to explain how Qunari society operates. I imagine that duty falls to the Tamassrans/Ben-Hassrath.

[Lazy Jer]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Because they believe in, and are willing to die for, something greater than themselves? 

Dying to bring back the book is understandable, but a bit of a stretch.  But dying to bring back Isabella?  I compare that to dying because you got the cake but not the icing. 

Their past crimes may be forgiven, but not forgotten. The Videthari are gonna go through a full test from the Tamassrans, who will probably take note that the person they are tested, failed to follow the laws of his previous government.

That's all well and good, but it's not what the Laws of Kirkwall say.  Which is the problem.  Kirkwall wants it their way, Arishok wants it his way.  Hence the conflict.

[Lazy Jer]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Wait, Anders can live? I didn't know.

*stab*

Anders...I vaguely remember him...oh yeah!  He's the original subject of this completely off-topic thread.

[Silfren]

caradoc2000 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It was the Arishok's duty to bring the theif back with him, therefore he had no choice but to do so, unless defeated in a challenge for the theif's life.

Even so, the Arishok himself had just refused to hand over the elves (who had committed a murder, not just theft like Isabela).

Once again, there's a significant moral difference in context here.  The elves didn't commit murder, they exacted justice for rape.  The Arishok wouldn't hand them over because he understood that the situation of the elves went as follows: A human had commited a brutal atrocity against one of their friends (or kin, I forget which), and they sought justice against the criminal.  They were denied justice.  So they took matters into their hands by killing the rapist.  Then suddenly the law that ignored their need for justice, stood up and took notice. 

In the case of Isabela, in the beginning, the Arishok wanted only the return of the stolen book, and custody of the woman who stole it.  That's all he wanted, and his duty to the Qun required that he accomplish both.  Yes, he ended up committing mass slaughter, but the case of wanting to take custody of the thief who stole the treasured artifact, if compared against the sheltering of the elves, is in no way morally equivalent.  The two cannot be compared at all, if taken into context.  

The two are only correlateable if one completely disregards context and looks at the matter from a literalistic, legalistic viewpoint. 

[Silfren]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Dying to bring back the book is understandable, but a bit of a stretch.  But dying to bring back Isabella?  I compare that to dying because you got the cake but not the icing.

It's that whole question of duty thing.  I don't think that apprehending the thief who stole the Qun was seen by the Arishok as a separate responsibility, but part and parcel of his duty to retrieve the stolen artifact. 

Basically I think the Arishok couldn't conceive of a good reason not to take Isabela into custody.  She had stolen the book, therefore she had to pay the consequences.  Anyone arguing against this was simply interfering with his duty, and for no good reason.  After all, there is no question that she was the thief, so what good reason was there NOT to require her answer for the crime?

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Qunari didn't "commit mass slaughter" they only fought the City Guard and killed what few nobles who actually resisted. Otherwise Kirkwall was left remarkably intact.

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Qunari didn't "commit mass slaughter" they only fought the City Guard and killed what few nobles who actually resisted. Otherwise Kirkwall was left remarkably intact.

Yet the story would have us believe it was a small-scale war, complete with chaos, death, and destruction.  I think more than a few bystanders probably got killed in the crossfire.  After all, we see the Grey Wardens fighting their way out of the city, which given the whole neutrality issue, strongly suggests that the Qunari weren't just leaving the Wardens be. 

And we do know that the qunari ARE willing to kill those who resist, whether peasant, noble, guard, or otherwise.  So whether they actually committed mass slaughter or not, which I admit is debateable, the fact remains that the qunari are not above indiscriminate killing (indiscriminate=anyone who refuses to submit) in order to advance the Qun's influence.

Edit: Meant to include, killing the guards and nobles hardly excludes the qunari offensive from being mass slaughter.  Quite a few guards were killed, and that qualifies aplenty.  Unless you think it only qualifies as mass slaughter if non-combatants are targeted. 

Modifié par Silfren, 15 mars 2012 - 07:32 .

[TEWR]

You can actually see quite a few citizens dead -- as much as the game allows anyway -- and Anders will say that the Qunari were in Darktown -- where people were fleeing from them.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Qunari wanted to prevent everyone from leaving the city. If you were running, they would probably assume you were trying to escaping. I don't recall seeing any dead citizens in Lowtown either, but certainly in Hightown, where the nobles live.

[TEWR]

There are a few in Lowtown. Some killed by falling debris, others just laying in the streets.