2340 réponses à ce sujet

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Qunari wanted to prevent everyone from leaving the city. If you were running, they would probably assume you were trying to escaping. I don't recall seeing any dead citizens in Lowtown either, but certainly in Hightown, where the nobles live.

Your original assertion was that they did not comit mass slaughter, yet now you are arguing a different point. Their reasons for killing people has no bearing on the question of who or how many people they were killing.  Either they committed mass slaughter, or they did not.  Why they killed fleeing people is irrelevant.

The story evidence strongly suggests that the qunari were not restricting their onslaught to the Kirkwall guard and the resistant nobles.  As EWR pointed out, Anders does say something about the people of Lowtown fleeing the qunari, and, again, they apparently attacked the Grey Wardens within the city as well.

It seems that the Arishok ultimately wanted to subdue the city, and didn't have qualms about killing any people among the general populace who were viewed as contrary to this plan, whether because they actively resisted a qunari takeover or were just trying to get the hell out of the way. 

[Lazy Jer]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Qunari wanted to prevent everyone from leaving the city. If you were running, they would probably assume you were trying to escaping.

Well gee-harmoney as long as they had a good reason...
 

I don't recall seeing any dead citizens in Lowtown either, but certainly in Hightown, where the nobles live.

If they slaughtered a mass of them then it was a mass slaughter...or do the nobles not count?

[Silfren]

Lazy Jer wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Qunari wanted to prevent everyone from leaving the city. If you were running, they would probably assume you were trying to escaping.

Well gee-harmoney as long as they had a good reason...
 

I don't recall seeing any dead citizens in Lowtown either, but certainly in Hightown, where the nobles live.

If they slaughtered a mass of them then it was a mass slaughter...or do the nobles not count?

Any time there's a news story that involves mutiple killings, it's called a mass slaughter.  I admit I've always found it a little odd to hear of a a handful of murders (I often see as few as four or five deaths carried out by a gunman referred to as such) as a "mass" slaughter, since I personally tend to envision a mass as being dozens or scores of deaths caused by a single event.  But I suppose this is a niggling argument, because there's no set numerical definition for "mass" in terms of numbered individuals.  Nevertheless, I think the qunari assault on Kirkwall probably does qualify as mass slaughter. 

[Lazy Jer]

Silfren wrote...

Any time there's a news story that involves mutiple killings, it's called a mass slaughter.  I admit I've always found it a little odd to hear of a a handful of murders (I often see as few as four or five deaths carried out by a gunman referred to as such) as a "mass" slaughter, since I personally tend to envision a mass as being dozens or scores of deaths caused by a single event.  But I suppose this is a niggling argument, because there's no set numerical definition for "mass" in terms of numbered individuals.  Nevertheless, I think the qunari assault on Kirkwall probably does qualify as mass slaughter. 

Agreed.  I think the system used these days is that two deaths is "double murder" and more then three or mor is either "mass murder" or "mass killing" or "mass slaying".  Now obviously DA doesn't take place nowadays, but considering the Qunari's general attitude towards the people of the city (i.e., the noble who speaks up against the Arishok is flat out killed, and I have to believe that Viscount Dumar probably said "please don't kill me" and was given an air-conditioned neck for his trouble) that even by DA standards it was a mass killing.

[caradoc2000]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why is that double standards?

Hawke asks the Arishok to hand over murderers - the Arishok refuses.
The Arishok asks Hawke to hand over a thief - Hawke refuses.

I would have wanted a dialogue option:
" I can accept butt-ugly, heathen dirtbags with bad breath. but I can't accept double standards"

Modifié par caradoc2000, 15 mars 2012 - 10:27 .

[Kavatica]

caradoc2000 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why is that double standards?

Hawke asks the Arishok to hand over murderers - the Arishok refuses.
The Arishok asks Hawke to hand over a thief - Hawke refuses.

I would have wanted a dialogue option:
" I can accept butt-ugly, heathen dirtbags with bad breath. but I can't accept double standards"

Well, that probably would have removed the option to duel him one-on-one. Just a wild guess.

Do you really think the Arishok has bad breath? I bet he smells like cookies. With maybe a hint of self-righteousness and death.

[Lazy Jer]

Kavatica wrote...

Do you really think the Arishok has bad breath? I bet he smells like cookies...

That depends on whether Sten has made his report or not.  If he has I think we've found what the Qunari were really searching for in Kirkwall.

[Kavatica]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Kavatica wrote...

Do you really think the Arishok has bad breath? I bet he smells like cookies...

That depends on whether Sten has made his report or not.  If he has I think we've found what the Qunari were really searching for in Kirkwall.

Hawke: What is this relic?
Isabela: It's a box of Thin Mints.

[TEWR]

Mmmm.... thin mints.....

*drools like Homer Simpson*

[Silfren]

So basically you guys are saying that what the qunari "delegation" was really after in Kirkwall were all the Girl Scout cookies.

Can't imagine why they'd be so desperate for Isabela, then. I'm pretty sure she can't bake worth a damn.

[TEWR]

Isabela's got connections with the Raiders of the Baking Sea, the meanest bunch of cookie pirates you'll ever meet.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 mars 2012 - 01:31 .

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Isabela's got connections with the Raiders of the Baking Sea, the meanest bunch of cookie pirates you'll ever meet.

Hmm.  I wonder if Sten made a detour on his way back to Par Vollen. 

Do you suppose there's anything at all in the Qun to allow for a change of position?  I think Sten totally missed his calling as a baker of sweet and crumbly foodstuffs.

[TEWR]

Actually, you just brought up something I pondered earlier.

Say a Qunari was found to excel at science and was made a scientist, but he was put into a situation with Tal-Vashoth -- by sheer chance -- where he proved himself to be a better fighter because of what transpired. What would happen? Would the Tamassrans re-evaluate him? What if he was found to be equally adept as both a scientist and a soldier, but when the Tamassrans first evaluated him his prowess at combat didn't display itself?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 mars 2012 - 01:46 .

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Actually, you just brought up something I pondered earlier.

Say a Qunari was found to excel at science and was made a scientist, but he was put into a situation with Tal-Vashoth -- by sheer chance -- where he proved himself to be a better fighter because of what transpired. What would happen? Would the Tamassrans re-evaluate him? What if he was found to be equally adept as both a scientist and a soldier, but when the Tamassrans first evaluated him his prowess at combat didn't display itself?

I would prefer to believe that the chance is provided, albeit in strict fashion per the Qun's demands.  Such as, if a qunari insisted that they belonged in a different position, they would have to make a solid case to prove it.  If they failed to do so, then they just went back into whatever Qun-dictated role they'd been in to begin with.

[caradoc2000]

At least it is not Anders' fault this thread is off-topic

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Actually, you just brought up something I pondered earlier.

Say a Qunari was found to excel at science and was made a scientist, but he was put into a situation with Tal-Vashoth -- by sheer chance -- where he proved himself to be a better fighter because of what transpired. What would happen? Would the Tamassrans re-evaluate him? What if he was found to be equally adept as both a scientist and a soldier, but when the Tamassrans first evaluated him his prowess at combat didn't display itself?

They would already have tested him in fighting themselves, and discovered his aptitude for both fighting and science. They would probably assign him a role of warmachine-engineer or weapons-developer.

[TEWR]

At least it is not Anders' fault this thread is off-topic

Eh, the DA forums are dead these days. Some off-topic discussions seem to have brought them back to life.

We've discussed Anders, Meredith, and the Mage-Templar so many times the threads have generally just ceased to be interesting.

[Burnouts3s3]

I did w/ my Healer character. B/C to me, the only reason to keep Anders around is because he heals.

[Kavatica]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Actually, you just brought up something I pondered earlier.

Say a Qunari was found to excel at science and was made a scientist, but he was put into a situation with Tal-Vashoth -- by sheer chance -- where he proved himself to be a better fighter because of what transpired. What would happen? Would the Tamassrans re-evaluate him? What if he was found to be equally adept as both a scientist and a soldier, but when the Tamassrans first evaluated him his prowess at combat didn't display itself?

Something about Sten's conversation with a fem Warden and his inability to even comprehend someone being anything outside of their prescribed roles leads me to believe the Qun do not allow you to change roles. But then again, you are better versed in Qunari than I.

[TEWR]

Kavatica wrote...

Something about Sten's conversation with a fem Warden and his inability to even comprehend someone being anything outside of their prescribed roles leads me to believe the Qun do not allow you to change roles. But then again, you are better versed in Qunari than I.

Well, Qunari society dictates that women -- no matter how skilled they are in combat -- cannot be a part of the Antaam, the Qunari army. The army is a man-only role, for men will always be better at it then women.

For a woman to be a part of the army -- and David Gaider has gone on record to say that the Qunari would consider the Grey Wardens an army unto themselves -- it's as if that woman wants to be man. Genetically, she's a woman but role-wise, she'd be a man.

Now, the Qunari define "fighting", "combat", and the like very rigidly and differently. So a woman can join the Ben-Hassrath. And the Ben-Hassrath will fight, but it's not a role that exists solely to fight.

Additionally, Sten says that if placed in a situation akin to the Redcliffe scenario all Qunari would fight to defend their home.

I'll admit, it's tricky to understand Qunari society when all you really know about it is what you're told. Certainly, were we to see Qunari society firsthand we could know how it operates more then we do now.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They would already have tested him in fighting themselves, and discovered his aptitude for both fighting and science. They would probably assign him a role of warmachine-engineer or weapons-developer.

But what if when they had tested him, he wasn't that good at fighting? What if he choked? What if he sucked then? But what if later on when he was put into a situation that forced him to fight, he was shown to be adept at it.

I'm wondering what the Qunari would do if a scientist was later on found out to be equally adept in combat when he wasn't that good at it the first time he was tested.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 mars 2012 - 08:40 .

[Kavatica]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Kavatica wrote...

Something about Sten's conversation with a fem Warden and his inability to even comprehend someone being anything outside of their prescribed roles leads me to believe the Qun do not allow you to change roles. But then again, you are better versed in Qunari than I.

Well, Qunari society dictates that women -- no matter how skilled they are in combat -- cannot be a part of the Antaam, the Qunari army. The army is a man-only role, for men will always be better at it then women.

For a woman to be a part of the army -- and David Gaider has gone on record to say that the Qunari would consider the Grey Wardens an army unto themselves -- it's as if that woman wants to be man. Genetically, she's a woman but role-wise, she'd be a man.

Now, the Qunari define "fighting", "combat", and the like very rigidly and differently. So a woman can join the Ben-Hassrath. And the Ben-Hassrath will fight, but it's not a role that exists solely to fight.

Additionally, Sten says that if placed in a situation akin to the Redcliffe scenario all Qunari would fight to defend their home.

I'll admit, it's tricky to understand Qunari society when all you really know about it is what you're told. Certainly, were we to see Qunari society firsthand we could know how it operates more then we do now.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They would already have tested him in fighting themselves, and discovered his aptitude for both fighting and science. They would probably assign him a role of warmachine-engineer or weapons-developer.

But what if when they had tested him, he wasn't that good at fighting? What if he choked? What if he sucked then? But what if later on when he was put into a situation that forced him to fight, he was shown to be adept at it.

I'm wondering what the Qunari would do if a scientist was later on found out to be equally adept in combat when he wasn't that good at it the first time he was tested.

I remember him also saying something about men not being able to choose either, though. Can't find the exact quote (It was something around where he says  "We do not choose. We simply are."). But then again, I guess we never know if this is representative of all Qunari, or just his own fatalist view of the world.

Also, do the Qunari have scientists? I want to see that.

Also, do you think the Qun would give someone a second chance if he sucked at fighting the first time around? Somehow I doubt it. They don't seem like the "second chance" type.

Modifié par Kavatica, 16 mars 2012 - 08:57 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They would already have tested him in fighting themselves, and discovered his aptitude for both fighting and science. They would probably assign him a role of warmachine-engineer or weapons-developer.

But what if when they had tested him, he wasn't that good at fighting? What if he choked? What if he sucked then? But what if later on when he was put into a situation that forced him to fight, he was shown to be adept at it.

I'm wondering what the Qunari would do if a scientist was later on found out to be equally adept in combat when he wasn't that good at it the first time he was tested.

You don't magically develop significant fighting skills. If his aptitude for fighting did not show during the tests, he simply don't have any.

What you are proposing is an improbability of such a magnitude, that it is probably unprecedented, and the Qun would have no easy answer to it.

[Silfren]

We see that there are at least two versions of the Chantry and three versions, potentially four, of Andrastianism altogether. I wonder what the odds are of multiple sects of the Qun? There simply is no such thing as a singularly cohesive religious philosophy that never, ever branches off, so it does stand to reason that there are other forms of it.

Particularly in areas that converted to the Qun but still have a Chantry presence. I'm drawing a blank here but it seems that I recall reading of at least one society that would be the perfect breeding ground for development of a less stringent form of the Qun, wherein some degree of individual choice in one's path might be permissable. I'll have to dig up my Origins lore, now.

Modifié par Silfren, 19 mars 2012 - 09:19 .

[TEWR]

@Silfren, the nation you're thinking of with both a Qunari presence and a Chantry presence is Rivain. Though it's not so much them coexisting in one area but rather the nation is split in half. One side Qunari, the other Chantry.

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

@Silfren, the nation you're thinking of with both a Qunari presence and a Chantry presence is Rivain. Though it's not so much them coexisting in one area but rather the nation is split in half. One side Qunari, the other Chantry.

Yes, that's it.  I had almost convinced myself it was Nevarra.

Anyway, that would be the ideal cultural setup, I think, for a religion to crop up that is a hybrid of the Chantry and the Qun.  Certainly a likely place for more liberal, tolerant versions of both.  Especially since it is Rivain that insists on having their mages live freely, despite Chantry presence, and with the far more brutal Qunari right on their doorstep.

Modifié par Silfren, 21 mars 2012 - 12:31 .