2340 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Wait...seriously?

Ella's first threatened by templars and then Janders bursts in. If I never saw him before I'd be scared of him to. He only validates her fears by attempting to/attacking her when she says he's a demon.

[Merlex]

DPSSOC wrote...

Every time. Regardless of how any of my particular Hawkes feel about Anders position there is one action that secures his death in every playthrough, Ella. The situation with Ella, seeing how quickly and easily Justice changes targets, solidified it in my mind that Anders can`t, under any circumstances, be allowed to live. Because next time Hawke might not be there to stop him, and it might not just be one innocent girl who makes the mistake of being terrified of him. Anders, for all his noble intentions, is a time bomb, and worse he can go off more than once. Sorry son but we gotta put Yeller down.

That's a very good point. I personally am neutral in the Templar/ Mage conflict. But my Hawks...

My neutral/ pro-Mage DW Duelist/ Assasssin killed him because it was his duty as the Champion. He didn't want to, but Anders had gone to far. Murdering the Grand Cleric, and other innocents. It was clear that Anders was beyond the hope of saving; and needed to be put down for the safety of all.

My neutral/ pro-Mage Controller Mage let him live. So that he could try and earn redemption for the innocent lives he took.

My pro-Templar S/S Reaver/ Templar is going to waste his terrorist arse. Like he should have, when he first revealed what he was.

My pro-Mage Bloodmage will say: "Welcome to the revolution".

My neutral/ pro-Templar Archer Shadow/ Assassin will shoot him in the head.

Modifié par Merlex, 07 juin 2012 - 09:30 .

[Lazy Jer]

Alessa-00 wrote...
That's my opinion, too.

Well, I wouldn't say she deserves to die for being too unhinged to grasp that the glowing man, standing in front of her, is not going to hurt her.

But one would think, she realizes that he poses no threat to her, because she only just watched that glowing man kill the Templars, who were menacing her.

Does she think, he did it just to kill her afterwards?

If I was in Justice's position I would have been annoyed at her reaction, too. <_<

Well Justice/Anders, of course, has the right to feel annoyed at Ella as well, true.  No one likes being called a demon, except for demons perhaps.  That issue isn't that he's annoyed at her, though, the issue is that he kills her because of it, or would if Hawke wasn't there to tug the the leash a couple of times and say "Bad Emo Mage!"  That's what the point is about Anders getting killed because of Ella.  What might happen if Anders in in a similar situation and Hawke isn't there?

[DPSSOC]

Alessa-00 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Oh please. Ella was a twit. Even if Anders sprouted horns and spat flames, he saved her from a magic lobotomy and gangrape. If she can't tell that he's a good guy, she deserves to die anyway for being so mind-numbingly stupid, not to mention ungrateful.

She probably needs to be reminded to breathe.

That's my opinion, too.

Well, I wouldn't say she deserves to die for being too unhinged to grasp that the glowing man, standing in front of her, is not going to hurt her.

But one would think, she realizes that he poses no threat to her, because she only just watched that glowing man kill the Templars, who were menacing her.

DPSSOC wrote...
You're surrounded by a pack of wolves and you're pretty sure they mean to kill you, a grizzly suddenly bursts from the bush and kills all the wolves, are you any less terrified of the bear?

[Alessa]

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
You're surrounded by a pack of wolves and you're pretty sure they mean to kill you, a grizzly suddenly bursts from the bush and kills all the wolves, are you any less terrified of the bear?[/quote]
[/quote]


Absolutely ... he's my friend ... gonna hug him for being so cute ...

Modifié par Alessa-00, 08 juin 2012 - 02:28 .

[Lazy Jer]

Alessa-00 wrote...
Absolutely ... he's my friend ... gonna hug him for being so cute ...

I'm sure the bear will hug you back.  He may claw you up a little bit at the same time, but a hug is a hug, right?

[Alessa]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Alessa-00 wrote...
Absolutely ... he's my friend ... gonna hug him for being so cute ...

I'm sure the bear will hug you back.  He may claw you up a little bit at the same time, but a hug is a hug, right?

Sure. I don't mind being clawed up a little bit ... can be great fun sometimes, you know ... 

Modifié par Alessa-00, 08 juin 2012 - 07:14 .

[TEWR]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Alessa-00 wrote...
Absolutely ... he's my friend ... gonna hug him for being so cute ...

I'm sure the bear will hug you back.  He may claw you up a little bit at the same time, but a hug is a hug, right?

He's a very polite bear.

[Lazy Jer]

Anyway the point is I hardly see Ella's being afraid of Anders as being deserving of death, and it's not the point anyway. As Justice, Anders hasn't enough control over himself to keep from killing someone. So unless you want to follow him around his entire life making sure he doesn't do anything extreme...

[Alessa]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...

Alessa-00 wrote...
Absolutely ... he's my friend ... gonna hug him for being so cute ...

I'm sure the bear will hug you back.  He may claw you up a little bit at the same time, but a hug is a hug, right?

He's a very polite bear.

GREAT! That's him! I see you know him, too.

[Plaintiff]

DPSSOC wrote...

Alessa-00 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Oh please. Ella was a twit. Even if Anders sprouted horns and spat flames, he saved her from a magic lobotomy and gangrape. If she can't tell that he's a good guy, she deserves to die anyway for being so mind-numbingly stupid, not to mention ungrateful.

She probably needs to be reminded to breathe.

That's my opinion, too.

Well, I wouldn't say she deserves to die for being too unhinged to grasp that the glowing man, standing in front of her, is not going to hurt her.

But one would think, she realizes that he poses no threat to her, because she only just watched that glowing man kill the Templars, who were menacing her.

DPSSOC wrote...
You're surrounded by a pack of wolves and you're pretty sure they mean to kill you, a grizzly suddenly bursts from the bush and kills all the wolves, are you any less terrified of the bear?

The comparison is nonsense. Anders, even when possessed by Justice, is not equivalent to a wild animal that lacks higher thought functions.

Nevertheless, if a bear saves me from a pack of wolves, and then turns away from me to growl at its bear friends about how it's going to kill all of the wolves in the forest, and then I actively antagonize it by calling it names or throwing something at it, it has every right to be pissed, and if it decides to turn around and eat me, then that's what I get for being a stupid douche.

Not to mention, Hawke and his other companions were actively involved in the slaughter of Alrik and his men. They are equally as culpable and they don't have demonic possession as an excuse. But Ella is not afraid of any of them. She only lashed out at Anders because he was glowing blue and had a funny voice. She's prejudiced is what she is.

[aldien]

I played through the game a few times before I decided to kill Anders. At the end of the game he becomes a terrorist. It starts with the destruction of the Chantry and in his mind it is justified. Forget Elthina for a moment and ask: Were there children in the Chantry that day? Perhaps whole families were blown to bits? He sees their deaths as acceptable for his cause. How many mages were standing with him that day? Orsino doesn't agree with him and the circle mages are horrified when they have to fight.

He tells Hawke: 'There is nothing you can say that I have not already said to myself' which to me says: I know best. It is really arrogant and selfish if you consider his words. There isn't a group of mages supporting what he is doing. As Anders says: 'I am the cause of mages.' As if all mages agree and wish to accept him as their emissarry. He has raised himself up on a pedestal and no matter what, he will come out smelling like roses. The sacrificial lamb and martyr. Someone like him will always play on people's emotions, use them, and murder to get what they want. He blew up the Chantry, next time it could be something worse if he is allowed to live. That's why I kill Anders. I don't like it, but as far as the game goes it is a necessary evil.

[Plaintiff]

aldien wrote...

I played through the game a few times before I decided to kill Anders. At the end of the game he becomes a terrorist. It starts with the destruction of the Chantry and in his mind it is justified. Forget Elthina for a moment and ask: Were there children in the Chantry that day? Perhaps whole families were blown to bits?

There were no children shown in there on any other day. Why would there be a school field trip on the exact day that Anders decides to nuke it?

[aldien]

Plaintiff wrote...

aldien wrote...

I played through the game a few times before I decided to kill Anders. At the end of the game he becomes a terrorist. It starts with the destruction of the Chantry and in his mind it is justified. Forget Elthina for a moment and ask: Were there children in the Chantry that day? Perhaps whole families were blown to bits?

There were no children shown in there on any other day. Why would there be a school field trip on the exact day that Anders decides to nuke it?

It was meant as a hypothetical not an absolute.

[DPSSOC]

Plaintiff wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
You're surrounded by a pack of wolves and you're pretty sure they mean to kill you, a grizzly suddenly bursts from the bush and kills all the wolves, are you any less terrified of the bear?

The comparison is nonsense. Anders, even when possessed by Justice, is not equivalent to a wild animal that lacks higher thought functions.

Neither are the Templars, the point is you have something that's probably going to kill you being torn apart by a complete unknown.  She doesn't know what Anders wants, doesn't know what he's doing there, all she knows is that he's clearly possessed and dangerous.

Plaintiff wrote...
Nevertheless, if a bear saves me from a pack of wolves, and then turns away from me to growl at its bear friends about how it's going to kill all of the wolves in the forest, and then I actively antagonize it by calling it names or throwing something at it, it has every right to be pissed, and if it decides to turn around and eat me, then that's what I get for being a stupid douche.

You're seriously saying that one word, uttered in shock and terror, legitimizes Justice killing a defenseless girl?  However I think you're misremembering that scene.  After Anders, Hawke, and co kill the Templars Anders goes on a long tirade about killing people and then turns to Ella.  If I'm running around with a shotgun talking about killing people and I turn to point it at you, even if you aren't part of the group of people I'm talking about, you're going to be afraid.

Just like people are afraid of Batman or the Hulk.  They're genuinely terrifying and especially with the Hulk there's no guarantee, even if he just saved you, that you're not next.

Plaintiff wrote...
Not to mention, Hawke and his other companions were actively involved in the slaughter of Alrik and his men. They are equally as culpable and they don't have demonic possession as an excuse. But Ella is not afraid of any of them.

 
What gave you that impression?  It's not like she talks calmly to and thanks Hawke and then goes "Aah a demon!" when she spots Anders, the only chance for her to demonstrate she's not afraid of Hawke and co minus Anders is if you stopped Anders from killing her, and she's had time to run off and calm down.

Plaintiff wrote...
She only lashed out at Anders because he was glowing blue and had a funny voice. She's prejudiced is what she is.

No she's just most frightened by Anders.  She's not expressing fear of the people who might harm her because she's far more concerned about the abomination.

[Lazy Jer]

Plaintiff wrote...

The comparison is nonsense. Anders, even when possessed by Justice, is not equivalent to a wild animal that lacks higher thought functions.

Nevertheless, if a bear saves me from a pack of wolves, and then turns away from me to growl at its bear friends about how it's going to kill all of the wolves in the forest, and then I actively antagonize it by calling it names or throwing something at it, it has every right to be pissed, and if it decides to turn around and eat me, then that's what I get for being a stupid douche.

Not to mention, Hawke and his other companions were actively involved in the slaughter of Alrik and his men. They are equally as culpable and they don't have demonic possession as an excuse. But Ella is not afraid of any of them. She only lashed out at Anders because he was glowing blue and had a funny voice. She's prejudiced is what she is.

Let's to a spot check about what the woman has been through so far.  She's in a cave filled with slavers that you have to cut through to get her.  She's been cornered by Alrick and the Bucketheads and he's about to turn her into the Tranquil Du Jure.  Then someone whose clearly possessed by some sort of spirit from beyond busts in glowing and issuing a demonic voice issues death threats and promptly follows up on them.  Still think her reaction to Anders was all that unreasonable?  Given the circumstances?

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 10 juin 2012 - 08:51 .

[TEWR]

Plaintiff wrote...

She's prejudiced is what she is.

WAT.

[Ryzaki]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

She's prejudiced is what she is.

WAT.

...Yeah.

...I'm just shaking my head at this point.

[TEWR]

Ryzaki wrote...

...Yeah.

...I'm just shaking my head at this point.

I mean really, let's just take a step back here for a minute and examine everything about the situation.

1) Ella's a Circle Mage. Being in the Circle, she's taught that the only times a Mage will have a spirit of the Fade inside of him/her is through demonic possession, since Spirits rarely deign to assist the mortal world and have no compulsion to enter it.

2) Anders is possessed. This is immediately discernable because his eyes and skin are glowing, the Fade is pretty much all around him as a result, and his voice is loud and booming. Mages are able to be aware of disturbances/shifts in the Fade. Ella would be able to sense that Anders is not only tapping into the Fade, but bringing the Fade into the real world through his own body.

3) While it's true Justice/Vengeance is inside of Anders and he isn't evil like a Demon, Ella only knows one thing about the situation: Anders is possessed. Because of what she's been taught, all she can do is assume that Anders is possessed by a Demon. She doesn't know Justice. She doesn't know the circumstances of Anders' possession. How often have we heard of a benign Spirit possessing a Mage? Twice, both of which have occurred around the same timeframe and the Circles were not able to be informed of.  And one of those times went horribly wrong, so Anders believes.

4) Justice's proclamation that every Templar will die does little to change her opinion on things, because we often see Abominations -- the more malicious kind -- and possessed non-mages make the exact same proclamation. No doubt Ella was taught that Abominations will try and destroy the Templars and the Mages -- or even society -- in pursuit of their own goals. Because we've seen ample evidence of Abominations doing that, and Abominations like Anders and Wynne are a rarity. Wynne more so, because she's retained control of herself over the decade or so she was merged with Faith.

Ella calling Justice/Vengeance a Demon isn't based on idiocy or prejudice. It's based on what she's been taught and what she's seen before her. The facts of the situation are quite clear to her, and short of asking Anders/Justice to sit down for tea so she can get to know them better in the hopes that she doesn't label them as something they're not, her statement is valid.

Not entirely accurate I feel -- I don't see Justice/Vengeance as a Demon, because I don't think we have enough lore to state definitively that's what he is -- but a valid statement to make based on the facts of the situation. And let's not forget that other people do call Justice/Vengeance a Demon, Anders among them. If Ella's prejudiced, so is Anders since the lore states that Demons are Spirits twisted by their desires.

Whether or not it's accurate is irrelevant, but that's what the general populus -- Mages chiefly among them -- believe about Spirits and Demons. So her statement and her fear are perfectly justifiable and are not "grounds for her to be executed by Justice".

It's not like Justice is going "I'm not a demon, please don't call me that. I'm really a nice Spirit of the Fade."

He's going "I'm no demon! Are you one of them?! You are! You must die! I can feel their hold over you!"

And as an aside: what she's been taught is.... very iffy because the Circle erroneously believes that Spirits are completely harmless. They're safer, definitely. But not by much, and one could argue that the Circle's education on Spirits has actually made Spirits the bigger threat -- because if you know Demons are not to be trusted, you know the threat. If you falsely believe that Spirits are safe and do something like Anders did.... well.... you're in for a rude awakening.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 juin 2012 - 10:48 .

[Ryzaki]

Yup. That's the one time I actually agreed with Merrill on something. All spirits are dangerous. It's too bad Anders learned that too late.

[N7KnightSabre]

I actually agree with Anders that someone has to force a confrontation in order to initiate change but I greatly disagreed with how he did it. Even so, I think killing him is crummy. I made him stay and fight. I was surprised by just how many people on the internet said they enjoyed killing him, even if you absolutely hated him, that's a cruel thing to do. Just tell him to ****** off, he's on his own.

[Elvis_Mazur]

I know it's an old topic, but I want to post here either way.

Yes, I killed Anders on my second playthrough because my second Hawke always supported the Chantry and always wanted to kill Orsino when she figured out he was involved in her mother's death, but she didn't want to stab him in the back. After all, he saved my Hawke's sister from death in the deep roads. Therefore, she and him had a fight after I told him to get the **** out of there.

[Might Sephiroth]

Most Dirty choice in all game ever, Anders is one of the best role play character ever made as a companion for videogame RPG, he has values and principles, who's play awakening know better both Ander and Justice, he have too a strrong personality and a real good belief, and it's true mage are far more opressed than the game show, that opression have more fault in Anders Actions then the Anders hinself, yes the slaught of the gran cleric is really tragic but very necessary the writers did good on that, but Sabastian is a great companion too, and made the player choose one or another was a poor choice, considering the game make impossible not loose/Kill Anders to stay with Sebastian.
My point "IF" you have a Hawke Diplomatic, Romanced with Sebastian, Rivaled with Anders and convince Anders to atone his sins and take side with the templars, Sebastian as a man of faith and can be fogiven considering his previous experience with vengeance not bring relief, why not stay with both on the party and get a really great and heroic end with all your friends alive. and supporting your decision.
That could be Epic, a some of really good choices leaving to a Epic End.

Quote: "I can't kill Anders (he is right)" hurts my heart loose Sebastian (he is a very good änd loyal friend).

Ok bad things happens to good people but in the end i love "Heroic Epic Ends"

[SeptimusMagistos]

My Hawke's only real beef with Anders was that Anders didn't inform him beforehand.

If he had they might have snuck more bombs into places where they could kill most of the Templars before the fighting started.

Yes, the loss of the (relatively) innocent lives inside the Chantry was unfortunate, but Hawke is just so very thankful to Anders for finally forcing the Mage/Templar conflict to begin he can't do anything less than thank him and welcome him back into the group.

[Heimdall]

My Hawke saw Anders as losing himself to the spirit of vengeance, which might be observed in his increasingly frantic efforts over the course of Act 3. In the end, it was meant as a mercy killing.