2340 réponses à ce sujet

[Rawgrim]

I killed him in Awakening. Then he showed up again, so YES, I took the oppertunity. Lets hope he stays dead this time.

[xxBabyMonkeyxx]

babymoon wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Fannlyn wrote...

No.

I kept Anders alive, and ran away with him. Was a mage, sided with mages. The time for negotiations was over. The Chantry promoted slavery in the form of locking up mages because of what they /could/ do. You can't charge someone with a crime before they commit it. And Tranquils? Zomg. Crime against nature much? I liked the leader woman from the Chantry (forget her name, forgive me), but she was an enabler of this situation. A situation that should never have been tolerated to begin with.

Judge me if you will, but I'm sticking to it.

I didn't kill Anders. He killed members of an organization that enslaved his people for nearly a millennia. An anti-mage religious organization that preaches hatred and intolerance towards mages, that has lead to innocent mages being killed by mobs, and to some mages committing suicide. The Chantry preaches that mages are "cursed," and we see the effects of this with Keili and Bethany.

Anders wanted to see his people free. If I was a mage, I wouldn't capitulate to the templars, either.

Agree with all of this.

Need I say more?

[Dragoonlordz]

Rawgrim wrote...

I killed him in Awakening. Then he showed up again, so YES, I took the oppertunity. Lets hope he stays dead this time.

Zombie Anders can never die!

I liked him in Awakening, he was the Alistair replacement. His personality was changed so much in DA2 and his betrayal of my character and mass murder he commited, yeh I killed him and would do it over and over without guilt because he was not the same Anders I liked in Awakening.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 10 septembre 2012 - 03:21 .

[TEWR]

Rawgrim wrote...

I killed him in Awakening. Then he showed up again, so YES, I took the oppertunity. Lets hope he stays dead this time.

I thought the explanation they gave for him still being alive was well enough, him having dressed up someone else and burning the corpse beyond recognition aside from a few minor details one would believe to have been Anders.

The real trouble is just how he meets Justice and worked with the Amaranthine Wardens if you didn't recruit him at all -- and did other things.

Bioware failed to give a suitable explantation to the former, and the latter just really made it worse. When in reality, an explanation -- a good one -- could've been given, had they put some thought into just how those things happened.

But they didn't.

Also, yes he will stay dead this time. Gaider's said as much. Justice/Vengeance on the other hand is another matter. Gaider didn't say whether he'd die with Anders or is freed and able to roam Thedas. All he said was that no possessed Anders corpse would be happening.

[Treacherous J Slither]

LobselVith8 wrote...

JSlither wrote...

I'm all for the freedom of mages. I also despise the Chantry. That said, I refuse to support terrorism/terrorists and it sickens me that you do.

You could consider the American revolutionaries and the revolting slaves of Saint Dominique (modern day Haiti) to be terrorists; it's a term that's thrown around quite a bit, and has no universal definition. That said, Anders killed members of an organization that conducts slavery against mages; he didn't target civilians.

I'm not familiar with what the American revolutionaries did that could be considered terrorist acts. Same with Saint Dominique. However, were I involved in a slave revolt, I would go after the slave masters and whoever else held me down. I would spare their wives, children and whoever else was not responsible for my torment. To kill them anyway would be wrong and I don't support that kind of behavior.

To me, Anders blowing up the Chantry is no different than Meredith and her Templars annulling the Circle. A lot of people dying for something they didn't do.

The Chantry leadership should be taken out if anything. They are the ones making all the decisions. Not the Chantry Sister/Mother that wants to help feed the hungry and care for the sick.

[LobselVith8]

JSlither wrote...

I'm not familiar with what the American revolutionaries did that could be considered terrorist acts. Same with Saint Dominique.

There's no universal definition for terrorists or terrorism, but historical rebels could be classified as terrorists.

JSlither wrote...

However, were I involved in a slave revolt, I would go after the slave masters and whoever else held me down. I would spare their wives, children and whoever else was not responsible for my torment. To kill them anyway would be wrong and I don't support that kind of behavior.

To me, Anders blowing up the Chantry is no different than Meredith and her Templars annulling the Circle. A lot of people dying for something they didn't do.

Killing Grand Cleric Elthina and her templars isn't the same as killing hundreds of innocent people. The Chantry is an expansionist organization with its own military, and is intertwined with the Orlesian Empire.

JSlither wrote...

The Chantry leadership should be taken out if anything. They are the ones making all the decisions. Not the Chantry Sister/Mother that wants to help feed the hungry and care for the sick.

The members of the organization that enslaves mages and brainwashes people into such hatred that Mother Hannah has to assure the Amell Warden that a mob won't kill him? Who threaten the Dalish? Who see "others" as heathens? Let's not pretend the Chantry is like a modern day church; it isn't. And I recall the Chantry doing nothing about the poor, especially in Darktown; the person helping them is Anders.

[Treacherous J Slither]

LobselVith8 wrote...

JSlither wrote...

I'm not familiar with what the American revolutionaries did that could be considered terrorist acts. Same with Saint Dominique.

There's no universal definition for terrorists or terrorism, but historical rebels could be classified as terrorists.

JSlither wrote...

However, were I involved in a slave revolt, I would go after the slave masters and whoever else held me down. I would spare their wives, children and whoever else was not responsible for my torment. To kill them anyway would be wrong and I don't support that kind of behavior.

To me, Anders blowing up the Chantry is no different than Meredith and her Templars annulling the Circle. A lot of people dying for something they didn't do.

Killing Grand Cleric Elthina and her templars isn't the same as killing hundreds of innocent people. The Chantry is an expansionist organization with its own military, and is intertwined with the Orlesian Empire.

JSlither wrote...

The Chantry leadership should be taken out if anything. They are the ones making all the decisions. Not the Chantry Sister/Mother that wants to help feed the hungry and care for the sick.

The members of the organization that enslaves mages and brainwashes people into such hatred that Mother Hannah has to assure the Amell Warden that a mob won't kill him? Who threaten the Dalish? Who see "others" as heathens? Let's not pretend the Chantry is like a modern day church; it isn't. And I recall the Chantry doing nothing about the poor, especially in Darktown; the person helping them is Anders.

Not every Chantry member is bad just like not every mage is bad. There are many who actually help people. In Kirkwall you don't see many if any examples of this but you do in Lothering.

[LobselVith8]

JSlither wrote...

Not every Chantry member is bad just like not every mage is bad. There are many who actually help people. In Kirkwall you don't see many if any examples of this but you do in Lothering.

Which doesn't make the Chantry members or the templars who died civilian targets.

[Treacherous J Slither]

LobselVith8 wrote...

JSlither wrote...

Not every Chantry member is bad just like not every mage is bad. There are many who actually help people. In Kirkwall you don't see many if any examples of this but you do in Lothering.

Which doesn't make the Chantry members or the templars who died civilian targets.

Still wrong though. No matter how you try to justify it.

[LobselVith8]

JSlither wrote...

Still wrong though. No matter how you try to justify it.

I have a bigger issue with the Chantry's involvement in slavery.

[SeptimusMagistos]

Fleet Command wrote...

Well, I killed Anders without a thought. He murdered irrelevant innocents. I knew he was about to blow up somewhere (because he mentioned "boom"!) but I always thought it would be the Templar's headquarters in the Gallows. But the Chantry building? Wow!

The Gallows is also where they keep all the mages.

[Silfren]

Fleet Command wrote...

Well, I killed Anders without a thought. He murdered irrelevant innocents. I knew he was about to blow up somewhere (because he mentioned "boom"!) but I always thought it would be the Templar's headquarters in the Gallows. But the Chantry building? Wow!

I also sided with mages. Meredith was doing the same thing that Anders did: Murdering irrelevant innocents. (Strange, only Sebastian noticed this fact.)

I did side with Templars in one gameplay to get the achievements but load the game again and sided with mages. I declared that the first playthrough was bad dream of Hawke.

Is this another "OMG he blew up a church!" thing?  Because the Chantry was THE appropriate target, as an organization with political AND military power.  Blowing up the Gallows would not have had the same effect.  Anders didn't blow up the Chantry just to murder random people for the hell of it.  He was specifically trying to get worldwide attention with a political assassination of a high ranking Chantry official.  Blowing up the Gallows wouldn't have achieved that goal; killing the Grand Cleric did.

[Renmiri1]

Blowing up the Gallows would kill all mages there

[erilben]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Blowing up the Gallows would kill all mages there

He still wanted to get all the Circle mages killed, even including Bethany. He wanted Annulment to happen. That's why he doesn't kill Meredith and instead kills the priests. With all the priests dead, Meredith can invoke the Right of Annulment herself.

[Plaintiff]

erilben wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Blowing up the Gallows would kill all mages there

He still wanted to get all the Circle mages killed, even including Bethany. He wanted Annulment to happen. That's why he doesn't kill Meredith and instead kills the priests. With all the priests dead, Meredith can invoke the Right of Annulment herself.

Which she can't do if Anders blows all the mages to smithereens beforehand. Duh.

Anders doesn't necessarily want the mages dead, their slaughter is not a definite outcome. Anders wants to expose the cruelty and hypocrisy of the Circle system, which is exactly what happens. Whether or not the other mages die is irrelevent, his goal is strictly to provoke Meredith into taking action that she already wanted to take anyway.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 11 septembre 2012 - 03:30 .

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

*snip*

Renmiri1 wrote...

Blowing up the Gallows would kill all mages there

Exactly, along with failing to make a powerful statement as Silfren stated. It defeats the entire purpose if he blows up the Gallows instead.

He wants the Mages to either fight or die on their knees. Killing them alongside the Templars defeats the point and renders him a simple mad bomber -- which he arguably still is to some people. Not me, personally.

It's like V for Vendetta, really. The Chantry is a symbol, given power by the people. As is blowing up the building. As is the Grand Cleric. Blow up the Chantry and remove the priests from the picture -- especially Elthina -- and you send a powerful message to the populus about what the current state of the Circle system creates -- seen with Meredith's unjust RoA when she's in charge.

This is sadly something many posters fail to realize. They see simply a bombing of a place of worship, but don't see the poltical undertones that the act itself holds. To them, the Chantry isn't a political/military organization or target.

It's just a church, to them.

Granted, I tend to view the endgame as being not so well done -- Anders' act was, though what followed both in dialogue and in-game events wasn't -- but it did send a shockwave throughout Thedas.

[Lazy Jer]

Rawgrim wrote...

I killed him in Awakening. Then he showed up again, so YES, I took the oppertunity. Lets hope he stays dead this time.

He got better.

[DPSSOC]

Silfren wrote...

Fleet Command wrote...

Well, I killed Anders without a thought. He murdered irrelevant innocents. I knew he was about to blow up somewhere (because he mentioned "boom"!) but I always thought it would be the Templar's headquarters in the Gallows. But the Chantry building? Wow!

I also sided with mages. Meredith was doing the same thing that Anders did: Murdering irrelevant innocents. (Strange, only Sebastian noticed this fact.)

I did side with Templars in one gameplay to get the achievements but load the game again and sided with mages. I declared that the first playthrough was bad dream of Hawke.

Is this another "OMG he blew up a church!" thing?  Because the Chantry was THE appropriate target, as an organization with political AND military power.  Blowing up the Gallows would not have had the same effect.  Anders didn't blow up the Chantry just to murder random people for the hell of it.  He was specifically trying to get worldwide attention with a political assassination of a high ranking Chantry official.  Blowing up the Gallows wouldn't have achieved that goal; killing the Grand Cleric did.

The Gallows could have worked at sending a message, it just wasn't the one Anders wanted.  Attacking the Gallows demonstrates an opposition to the Circle and the Templars specifically (that's what he targeted).  By targeting the Chantry he demonstrates an opposition to anyone not actively opposing them.  One is drawing your sword and challenging your opponent to a fight, the other is picking up an M-60 and screaming, "Get behind me or you're dead!"  Anders wants the latter, he wants an excuse to kill anybody who doesn't agree with him so he declares the broadest war he can. 

[Plaintiff]

DPSSOC wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Fleet Command wrote...

Well, I killed Anders without a thought. He murdered irrelevant innocents. I knew he was about to blow up somewhere (because he mentioned "boom"!) but I always thought it would be the Templar's headquarters in the Gallows. But the Chantry building? Wow!

I also sided with mages. Meredith was doing the same thing that Anders did: Murdering irrelevant innocents. (Strange, only Sebastian noticed this fact.)

I did side with Templars in one gameplay to get the achievements but load the game again and sided with mages. I declared that the first playthrough was bad dream of Hawke.

Is this another "OMG he blew up a church!" thing?  Because the Chantry was THE appropriate target, as an organization with political AND military power.  Blowing up the Gallows would not have had the same effect.  Anders didn't blow up the Chantry just to murder random people for the hell of it.  He was specifically trying to get worldwide attention with a political assassination of a high ranking Chantry official.  Blowing up the Gallows wouldn't have achieved that goal; killing the Grand Cleric did.

The Gallows could have worked at sending a message, it just wasn't the one Anders wanted.  Attacking the Gallows demonstrates an opposition to the Circle and the Templars specifically (that's what he targeted).  By targeting the Chantry he demonstrates an opposition to anyone not actively opposing them.  One is drawing your sword and challenging your opponent to a fight, the other is picking up an M-60 and screaming, "Get behind me or you're dead!"  Anders wants the latter, he wants an excuse to kill anybody who doesn't agree with him so he declares the broadest war he can. 

But the Chantry is actively opposing mage freedom. Its dogma and laws are the entire foundation on which the system is based.

[DPSSOC]

Sorry I was unclear I meant anyone not actively opposing the Circle and the Templars. If all Anders wanted was to fight the Templars the Gallows would have been the better target, but that's not what he wants he wants to fight everybody who won't side with him.

[formaristarry]

Whenever I see people asking, "Why didn't he just blow up the Gallows?" It makes me wonder if they are paying any attention at all to the game. Yeah, the mages are housed in the Gallows, but also, the Templars exist because of and are controlled by the Chantry, they are the army of these "irrelevent innocents". It is Chantry law that he is opposing, from that stems the oppression he is trying to end, so striking a blow against the source is more effective.

If you think of it in these terms, the Wardens don't end Blights by killing all of the darkspawn, they cut off the head of the one leading the army.

And no, I didn't kill him...I couldn't hear the option to over the sound of the Chantry exploding...teeheee

[Plaintiff]

DPSSOC wrote...

Sorry I was unclear I meant anyone not actively opposing the Circle and the Templars. If all Anders wanted was to fight the Templars the Gallows would have been the better target, but that's not what he wants he wants to fight everybody who won't side with him.

I don't think this stance is entirely unreasonable.

If I might use a real-life analogy: When it comes to the issue of civil rights for homosexuals (or really, any minority), plenty of people say they don't "see the need" for them. Such individuals like to think of themselves as 'neutral', but the truth is that their complacency and willful ignorance allows for the continued inequity of the status quo. They are part of the problem, whether they want to be or not. In the face of an obvious injustice, neutrality is not a legitimate stance.

Luckily, we live in a relatively civilised society that offers individuals and groups the chance to engage publicly in reasonable discourse without fear of violent repurcussion from authorities.

Anders and mages in general have no such options. They live in a completely different social climate. One where violence perpetrated against them is not only tolerated but a protected right possessed by their captors. Entire groups of mages can be slaughtered on the whim of high-ranking officials in an organisation whose only authority is derived from the claimed existence of an absent deity. They live in a world where the major religion preaches that it is essentially wrong for them to even exist. Non-mage individuals who aid them even slightly do so at great personal risk.

There's no room for reasonable discourse in Thedas. Those who oppose mage freedom are not and will not be rational or merciful, and those who don't "see the need" for mage rights will allow mages to be slaughtered in droves by their inaction. Anders should not pull his punches and should not be expected to.

[Knight of Dane]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

This is sadly something many posters fail to realize. They see simply a bombing of a place of worship, but don't see the poltical undertones that the act itself holds. To them, the Chantry isn't a political/military organization or target.

It's just a church, to them.

Granted, I tend to view the endgame as being not so well done -- Anders' act was, though what followed both in dialogue and in-game events wasn't -- but it did send a shockwave throughout Thedas.

Nonsense TEWR, no matter what the Chantry is Anders won't be something other than a mad bomber. You don't have to know what the chantry really is to realize the madness of his actions.

[Red Templar]

The amount of people on this forum who so easily adopt and zealously advocate terrorist rhetoric in defense of their fictional tribal affiliations makes me very sad and doubtful for the future of humanity.