2340 réponses à ce sujet

[TheJediSaint]

Red Templar wrote...

The amount of people on this forum who so easily adopt and zealously advocate terrorist rhetoric in defense of their fictional tribal affiliations makes me very sad and doubtful for the future of humanity.

If it's any consolation, the forums represent only a tiny sample of the Dragon Age fanbase.  And I'll wager that the "KILL RELIGIOUS PEOPLE FOR FREEDOM!" faction are a minority of that already small sample.  

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 11 septembre 2012 - 01:07 .

[Jorina Leto]

The first time I let him live, because I was surprised by his actions and needed a healer.

Since my second playthroug I killed him every time.

[LobselVith8]

Knight of Dane wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

This is sadly something many posters fail to realize. They see simply a bombing of a place of worship, but don't see the poltical undertones that the act itself holds. To them, the Chantry isn't a political/military organization or target.

It's just a church, to them.

Granted, I tend to view the endgame as being not so well done -- Anders' act was, though what followed both in dialogue and in-game events wasn't -- but it did send a shockwave throughout Thedas.

Nonsense TEWR, no matter what the Chantry is Anders won't be something other than a mad bomber. You don't have to know what the chantry really is to realize the madness of his actions.

If the end result of attacking an institution of slavery against mages is an enviornment where Cassandra thinks Hawke - a companion who can spare Anders, agree with what he did, and protect the mages from Meredith's Right of Annulment - is spreading subversion against the Chantry, I respectfully disagree.

[Knight of Dane]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

This is sadly something many posters fail to realize. They see simply a bombing of a place of worship, but don't see the poltical undertones that the act itself holds. To them, the Chantry isn't a political/military organization or target.

It's just a church, to them.

Granted, I tend to view the endgame as being not so well done -- Anders' act was, though what followed both in dialogue and in-game events wasn't -- but it did send a shockwave throughout Thedas.

Nonsense TEWR, no matter what the Chantry is Anders won't be something other than a mad bomber. You don't have to know what the chantry really is to realize the madness of his actions.

If the end result of attacking an institution of slavery against mages is an enviornment where Cassandra thinks Hawke - a companion who can spare Anders, agree with what he did, and protect the mages from Meredith's Right of Annulment - is spreading subversion against the Chantry, I respectfully disagree.

You can reform the chantry without destroying it and those that live within.

[Lazy Jer]

Jorina Leto wrote...

The first time I let him live, because I was surprised by his actions and needed a healer.

Since my second playthroug I killed him every time.

That's almost exactly why I let him live.  Specifically needing the healer.  At first I told him to GTFO but then when he showed up later I realized he was the only mage I had, at the time that could heal.  If I'd have known a the time that Bethany would be joining me and that I could update her stats I'd probably have told him to GTFO the second time as well.

I, like you, kill him on any playthoughs.  Especially after Sebastian goes all aggro if you don't.

[LobselVith8]

Knight of Dane wrote...

You can reform the chantry without destroying it and those that live within.

When those people think they have "domination over mages by divine right," I don't agree.

[Renmiri1]

Red Templar wrote...

The amount of people on this forum who so easily adopt and zealously advocate terrorist rhetoric in defense of their fictional tribal affiliations makes me very sad and doubtful for the future of humanity.

Me too.


Where are your posts lamenting people adding a hitman (Zevran), a prostitute/spy (Leliana), a serial killer (Velana), a brutal murderer (Fenris) and other "bad" characters to the party ?

People who can not see the difference between fiction and reality are sad indeed.

[TEWR]

Many others have written the same thing. But in my original message, I specifically mentioned "Templar's headquarters in the Gallows". Although I didn't think the explosion would be that big, I also thought Anders wouldn't mind if Alrik, Kerras or "Templar Lieutant" died.

The Templar HQ is also the Mage HQ. They don't live in separate sections of the fortress. They live together.

Red Templar wrote...

The amount of people on this forum who so easily adopt and zealously advocate terrorist rhetoric in defense of their fictional tribal affiliations makes me very sad and doubtful for the future of humanity.

Yes, because we're all going to plant bombs in Sunday School Churches around the globe simply because in a fictional medeival-esque world with fictional problems we see the actions of one person being acceptable.

We are just that disillusioned. We're all terrorists in the making.

Let's ignore the story that's being portrayed here or the history of our own world that mirrors -- as best it can -- what's going on here in Thedas, where when one group was oppressed they did fight back. Let's ignore all of that so we can make disingenuous remarks about other posters.

Bah. The world we live in today is not the same as the one that we lived in centuries ago. Reasonable discourse exists today and is more successful then it was hundreds of years ago, where violence was pretty much the go-to method. Reasonable discourse does not work in Thedas. Not for matters that concern equal rights and freedom to a minority.

To believe that simply because we view Anders' actions as justified means we're going to justify the actions of terrorists today is an absurd and idiotic notion.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 septembre 2012 - 09:46 .

[Face of Evil]

I had a bunch of healing potions, so I didn't need Anders. Murder-knifey time!  

I was actually sad about a little sad about killing Anders, but I was more angry that he made me culpable in his plot. I've murdered my fair share of people who were just following orders or were desperate, but I never engineered a massacre of (mostly) innocent people just to make a political statement. Forget Elthina; the blood of every mage and every templar killed during the Rite of Annulment is on his hands. If they had to die for his revolution, then Anders was damn well going to pay the same price.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 11 septembre 2012 - 10:09 .

[TEWR]

Indeed. either option's justified really. One has you killing him to give justice to everyone he's killed -- even the people in the Chantry, necessary as their deaths were -- along with ensuring Starkhaven's support in whichever path you choose and being able to tell the populus that you did kill the bomber.

The other is about poetic justice, where Anders can work to save as many mages as possible in the war -- that he helped bring to light, as it was always being fought behind closed doors -- and many other things.

[Renmiri1]

Face of Evil wrote...

I had a bunch of healing potions, so I didn't need Anders. Murder-knifey time!  

I was actually sad about a little sad about killing Anders, but I was more angry that he made me culpable in his plot. I've murdered my fair share of people who were just following orders or were desperate, but I never engineered a massacre of (mostly) innocent people just to make a political statement. Forget Elthina; the blood of every mage and every templar killed during the Rite of Annulment is on his hands. If they had to die for his revolution, then Anders was damn well going to pay the same price.

The Right of Annulment was requested long before he acted. And the war was just a matter of time. Even Varric says so.

What Anders did allowed some of the mages in Kirkwall to survive and be able to tell the story. Innocents died, but the surprise attack saved some lives. Are a few mages alive worhty of having chantry innocents killed ? I would say no but it is not as Anders pulled out the mage / templar conflict and Meredith's madness out of his arse. All the elements for the eruption of the war were there. Kirkwall was a powder keg and was going to blow up.

Suppose Meredith was allowed to search the tower and then she found evidence that Orsino kept Quentin's necromancy research ? Do you doubt she would use that to get the Right of Annulment approved ? Do you think Anders and others would stay quiet when all Kirkwall mages were put to death ?

DA2 is the story about the start of the mage / templar war. It was going to get started in our game. Anders or no Anders.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Indeed. either option's justified really. One has you killing him to give justice to everyone he's killed -- even the people in the Chantry, necessary as their deaths were -- along with ensuring Starkhaven's support in whichever path you choose and being able to tell the populus that you did kill the bomber.

The other is about poetic justice, where Anders can work to save as many mages as possible in the war -- that he helped bring to light, as it was always being fought behind closed doors -- and many other things.

 
Agreed 100%

Modifié par Renmiri1, 11 septembre 2012 - 10:19 .

[Silfren]

TheJediSaint wrote...

Red Templar wrote...

The amount of people on this forum who so easily adopt and zealously advocate terrorist rhetoric in defense of their fictional tribal affiliations makes me very sad and doubtful for the future of humanity.

If it's any consolation, the forums represent only a tiny sample of the Dragon Age fanbase.  And I'll wager that the "KILL RELIGIOUS PEOPLE FOR FREEDOM!" faction are a minority of that already small sample.  

Funny.  I thought it was more along the lines of "KILL THE UNYIELDING, UNCOMPROMISING MEMBERS OF A POWERFUL MILITARY-POLITICAL REGIME WHO USE RELIGION AS AN EXCUSE TO ENGAGE IN SLAVERY, MURDER, AND OPPRESSION."

Really, summing that up as people just being anti-religion without qualification is disingenuous.  Most people I know are perfectly fine with religion in general.  It's when religion starts being used as a tool of and justification for oppression that we start to get pissy.  And that is precisely what is going on with the Chantry.  It is hardly an innocent organization that has an unfortunate fringe group of fanatics--from the top down the Chantry's entire purpose revolves around mage enslavement.  Indeed, it is through its anti-mage rhetoric that the Chantry justifies having the army it has used for Exalted Marches against not only mages, but the elves and even a pissing contest with a dissenting sect of its own people.

[Face of Evil]

Meredith likely would have invoked the Right of Annulment at some point or another. Her loyalty to Elthina and the Chantry was the only thing holding her back. And maybe that slaughter would have been far worse because Hawke wouldn't have been involved.

But that's still only a possibility, however likely. Anders' actions prevented a lot of of other "maybes" from happening. Maybe the Seekers would have stepped in. Maybe the people and the nobles would have finally risen up and deposed Meredith. Maybe the idol would have driven her off the bend and she would have to be institutionalized like Bartrand.

In blowing up the Chantry, Anders turned every mage into unwilling martyrs. I have no problem with people choosing of their own volition to fight and die for a cause, but he didn't have the right to decide for them.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 11 septembre 2012 - 10:45 .

[Knight of Dane]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

You can reform the chantry without destroying it and those that live within.

When those people think they have "domination over mages by divine right," I don't agree.

But not all of them beleive that for the makers sake. The entire reasoning for the mages to rebel is because "we do not all summon demons" and that the circle is unjust, then why the hell should they just assume that every chantry sister wants to opress them like that.

Anders died a hypocrite.

[Silfren]

Knight of Dane wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

You can reform the chantry without destroying it and those that live within.

When those people think they have "domination over mages by divine right," I don't agree.

But not all of them beleive that for the makers sake. The entire reasoning for the mages to rebel is because "we do not all summon demons" and that the circle is unjust, then why the hell should they just assume that every chantry sister wants to opress them like that.

Anders died a hypocrite.

Like it or not, when a group of people has to go to war in order to gain their freedom, that means that good, innocent people are going to die.  It doesn't matter whether that's good, bad, right or wrong.  It is GOING to happen.  It HAS happened, in every war in history that has ever been fought, including those for which few people would seriously argue the cause was not just.  There are always going to be people who would BENEFIT from a victorious war for freedom, who don't want that war.  There are always going to be people who are technically on the side of the oppressive regime (i.e. the Chantry laypersons and low-ranking priests) who get caught in the crossfire even if they aren't actively oppressing anyone, and don't even support that oppression.  This is just how war is.  There's nothing unique about what Anders did or what his cause involved--EVERY. FREAKING. WAR. involves it.  There are always people on the rebellion's side who don't want to rebel, and those who get lumped in with the oppressor through no fault of their own.  

That is just how war is...EVEN when that war is justified.  Point to any war in real world history and I guarantee you you'll not find any exceptions.  That does not mean, however, that a war isn't a good thing, if war alone is the only means by which freedom for an oppressed people can be attained. 

Modifié par Silfren, 12 septembre 2012 - 08:06 .

[Silfren]

Knight of Dane wrote...

You can reform the chantry without destroying it and those that live within.

Not when the Chantry has no inclination to change, you can't.  The Chantry has been in power for a thousand years.  Mages have tried to achieve reform through peaceful means.  They've been repeatedly denied. 

It is a fact of life that it is often violence which forces change.  There are NO movements in human history that have ever been 100% peaceful.  Don't bother pointing to Gandi or Martin Luther King, because those peace activists didn't exist in totally peaceful vacuums. 

Even when violence isn't the only or the major method of achieving change, it is nevertheless sometimes violence that serves as a catalyst for making people realize that change NEEDS to happen.  

Modifié par Silfren, 11 septembre 2012 - 11:10 .

[Xilizhra]

Red Templar wrote...

The amount of people on this forum who so easily adopt and zealously advocate terrorist rhetoric in defense of their fictional tribal affiliations makes me very sad and doubtful for the future of humanity.

Well, you zealously advocate the rhetoric of genocidal religious tyrants, so... actually, I'm not that concerned because people like that are always around and losing popularity.

[Garrus94]

Jorina Leto wrote...

The first time I let him live, because I was surprised by his actions and needed a healer.

Since my second playthroug I killed him every time.

Thats why I let him live, he saves my party like every time.  And when I am the healer I am a mage ,so I agree with his actions, or at least understand them.  I killed him once though after he came back to the gallows.

[franka_h]

I killed Anders once when I sided with the Templars. It was my last play of DA:2 and I wanted to be a male mage but then in a turn of events I sided with the Templars, I thought it would be fun and then I get to the stupid tower after sparring Anders and he fights me and I have to kill him, though I did try reasoning with him.

And on a different note I like to think of Anders as a crazier, infinitely more volatile Martin Luther, with the exception obviously that Anders was never with the Chantry.

[Knight of Dane]

Silfren wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

You can reform the chantry without destroying it and those that live within.

When those people think they have "domination over mages by divine right," I don't agree.

But not all of them beleive that for the makers sake. The entire reasoning for the mages to rebel is because "we do not all summon demons" and that the circle is unjust, then why the hell should they just assume that every chantry sister wants to opress them like that.

Anders died a hypocrite.

Like it or not, when a group of people has to go to war in order to gain their freedom, that means that good, innocent people are going to die.  It doesn't matter whether that's good, bad, right or wrong.  It is GOING to happen.  It HAS happened, in every war in history that has ever been fought, including those for which few people would seriously argue the cause was not just.  There are always going to be people who would BENEFIT from a victorious war for freedom, who don't want that war.  There are always going to be people who are technically on the side of the oppressive regime (i.e. the Chantry laypersons and low-ranking priests) who get caught in the crossfire even if they aren't actively oppressing anyone, and don't even support that oppression.  This is just how war is.  There's nothing unique about what Anders did or what his cause involved--EVERY. FREAKING. WAR. involves it.  There are always people on the rebellion's side who don't want to rebel, and those who get lumped in with the oppressor through no fault of their own.  

That is just how war is...EVEN when that war is justified.  Point to any war in real world history and I guarantee you you'll not find any exceptions.  That does not mean, however, that a war isn't a good thing, however, if war alone is the only means by which freedom for an oppressed people can be attained. 

This is not about the god damn whole war, this is about Anders, only Anders, not anyone else, blowing up a religious building with people inside of it.

I have no illusions towards civilian casualties or the losses of war. Anders didn't need to bomb the chantry or at least not while those people were inside to start the war. He could have murdered Elthina in the streets if that was his point, she was his only real target. Then he's at least only be a bloody murderer.

Those that die on either side fighting in the mage/templar war chooses it themselves. Anders bomb was not a choise, it was a cowardly action that inflicted harm on those that hadn't threatened him personally.

[Knight of Dane]

Silfren wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

You can reform the chantry without destroying it and those that live within.

Not when the Chantry has no inclination to change, you can't.  The Chantry has been in power for a thousand years.  Mages have tried to achieve reform through peaceful means.  They've been repeatedly denied. 

It is a fact of life that it is often violence which forces change.  There are NO movements in human history that have ever been 100% peaceful.  Don't bother pointing to Gandi or Martin Luther King, because those peace activists didn't exist in totally peaceful vacuums. 

Even when violence isn't the only or the major method of achieving change, it is nevertheless sometimes violence that serves as a catalyst for making people realize that change NEEDS to happen.  

Don't give me those god awful excuses, you are saying they gave up. Bloody hell, I'm not talking about nowarnoonedies, but Anders never needed to do as he did to start what he wanted. It was the act of a selfish idiotic brat that didn't want to let his people choose their own path.

[Renmiri1]

Knight of Dane wrote...

** snip **

 Anders never needed to do as he did to start what he wanted. It was the act of a selfish idiotic brat that didn't want to let his people choose their own path.

Oddly enough since I always let him live and romance him 99% of the time, I agree with you. He forced the issue. 

Sure, his surprise attack saved the lives of many mages, but the cost was not something my Hawke and I consider worth it. And Hawke knows he didn't do it for tactical reasons. He did it because he couldn't live on the current impasse any longer.

My Hawke will eventually forgive him, for all the reasons mentioned above, but she will slap him around and yell a him a lot before  And she stays with him only under the condition of no more stunts like those.

[DPSSOC]

Plaintiff wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Sorry I was unclear I meant anyone not actively opposing the Circle and the Templars. If all Anders wanted was to fight the Templars the Gallows would have been the better target, but that's not what he wants he wants to fight everybody who won't side with him.

I don't think this stance is entirely unreasonable.

If I might use a real-life analogy: When it comes to the issue of civil rights for homosexuals (or really, any minority), plenty of people say they don't "see the need" for them. Such individuals like to think of themselves as 'neutral', but the truth is that their complacency and willful ignorance allows for the continued inequity of the status quo. They are part of the problem, whether they want to be or not. In the face of an obvious injustice, neutrality is not a legitimate stance.

A fair point and I don't disagree, someone had just stated that blowing up the Gallows wouldn't send a message, it would just not the message Anders wanted.

Now I disagree with Anders decision to make that statement but that's because I believe it's just going to result in an increase in the number of people standing against the mages.  Anyone who would have remained neutral in the conflict had Anders singled out the Templars isn't going to side with the mages after that kind of demonstration.  You don't win friends by declaring that anybody who doesn't agree with you will die.

People who remain neutral in conflicts like this most often do so out of apathy and self interest.  The conflict does not effect them personally so they don't care, and they gain nothing by getting involved.  Overcoming those feelings is how you get people to join up, not threatening them with magicky death.

So my objection is less about the ethics of his actions and more that I find them to be incredibly stupid.