2340 réponses à ce sujet

[Renmiri1]

Ya, I think Anders didn't think it through. Not that he ever does.. Mr "merge with Fade Spirit will be fun" is not known for lots of strategical thinking

BTW, since this is the kill Anders thread

[Plaintiff]

Knight of Dane wrote...
Anders bomb was not a choise, it was a cowardly action that inflicted harm on those that hadn't threatened him personally.

Except for all the times that they did threaten him personally by spreading the religious dogma that advocates his lifelong imprisonment.

Anders is in very real danger, every single day of his life, because of Chantry bigotry. Exactly what part of that is he supposed to not take personally?

[Knight of Dane]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

** snip **

 Anders never needed to do as he did to start what he wanted. It was the act of a selfish idiotic brat that didn't want to let his people choose their own path.

Sure, his surprise attack saved the lives of many mages, but the cost was not something my Hawke and I consider worth it. And Hawke knows he didn't do it for tactical reasons. He did it because he couldn't live on the current impasse any longer.

On the contrary his bomb jeopardized the lives of many people that was content with the situation as it was, both Templar and Mage.

The only playthroughs i let him live are the ones where my own Hawke is a mage and view him as a better ally than martyr.

[Knight of Dane]

Plaintiff wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...
Anders bomb was not a choise, it was a cowardly action that inflicted harm on those that hadn't threatened him personally.

Except for all the times that they did threaten him personally by spreading the religious dogma that advocates his lifelong imprisonment.

Anders is in very real danger, every single day of his life, because of Chantry bigotry. Exactly what part of that is he supposed to not take personally?

Being against the chantry as a whole is not the same as not allowing those few that doesn't mean him any personal harm live.

[Plaintiff]

DPSSOC wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Sorry I was unclear I meant anyone not actively opposing the Circle and the Templars. If all Anders wanted was to fight the Templars the Gallows would have been the better target, but that's not what he wants he wants to fight everybody who won't side with him.

I don't think this stance is entirely unreasonable.

If I might use a real-life analogy: When it comes to the issue of civil rights for homosexuals (or really, any minority), plenty of people say they don't "see the need" for them. Such individuals like to think of themselves as 'neutral', but the truth is that their complacency and willful ignorance allows for the continued inequity of the status quo. They are part of the problem, whether they want to be or not. In the face of an obvious injustice, neutrality is not a legitimate stance.

A fair point and I don't disagree, someone had just stated that blowing up the Gallows wouldn't send a message, it would just not the message Anders wanted.

Now I disagree with Anders decision to make that statement but that's because I believe it's just going to result in an increase in the number of people standing against the mages.  Anyone who would have remained neutral in the conflict had Anders singled out the Templars isn't going to side with the mages after that kind of demonstration.  You don't win friends by declaring that anybody who doesn't agree with you will die.

People who remain neutral in conflicts like this most often do so out of apathy and self interest.  The conflict does not effect them personally so they don't care, and they gain nothing by getting involved.  Overcoming those feelings is how you get people to join up, not threatening them with magicky death.

So my objection is less about the ethics of his actions and more that I find them to be incredibly stupid.

A fair enough point, but I don't see another way to go about it. Anders spent seven years writing, re-writing and spreading his manifesto around the city. He tried to use logic, he tried to be reasonable. Not only was he ignored, but the situation got steadily worse.

Nothing was going to change without a drastic, violent action to shake the balance of power. It didn't have to be Anders, it didn't even have to be Kirkwall, but then DA2 would be a different game.

[Knight of Dane]

Nonsense, he could just use the Warden/Hawke/Shepard model and start in the small works. Sniffing out cases of isolated mages being hunted, helping them each in the same way the others gather companions. For each case helped attention is drawn towards it. The more people he help the more others will see, the more others will see the more will ask for his help.

Mind you, his enemies would hear of him as well and try to shut him down, but in that case he would prevail as a victor or die fighting as he wants to.

The Warden ends the blight doing it like this, Shepard saves the Galaxy.
The idea was just in front of him and yet he keeps on writing that stupid memento as if anyone is going to read what a unknown apostate thinks about anything.

[Plaintiff]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Nonsense, he could just use the Warden/Hawke/Shepard model and start in the small works. Sniffing out cases of isolated mages being hunted, helping them each in the same way the others gather companions. For each case helped attention is drawn towards it. The more people he help the more others will see, the more others will see the more will ask for his help.

He was already doing this, and he was also running a free clinic for the sick, homeless people of Darktown. It didn't work. The Chantry and Templar Order are aware of the good that magic and mages can do for society, and they don't care. They actively prevent such good from being done by keeping mages isolated from wider society.

Mages have proven their worth time and time again in wartime, and the Chantry shuts them back up again without so much as a thank you. The current system has stood for a millenium. Exactly what do you think Anders was going to change by committing 'good works' that are illegal and regarded as wrong by the majority of society?

The current system has stood for a millenium. Society has had enough to time to start using its brain and make reasonable changes. Enough is enough.

Mind you, his enemies would hear of him as well and try to shut him down, but in that case he would prevail as a victor or die fighting as he wants to.

And acheive nothing of consequence in either outcome.

The Warden ends the blight doing it like this, Shepard saves the Galaxy.

These situations are not at all comparable to the events of DA2. The Warden and Shepard are not dealing with major religious powers that actively repress them and eeveryone like them.

The idea was just in front of him and yet he keeps on writing that stupid memento as if anyone is going to read what a unknown apostate thinks about anything.

You mean like nobody read The Ninety-Five Theses by Martin Luther, which led to drastic religious reform?

Make up your mind: Can Anders change society with reasonable arguments or not? If he can't, and none of his 'good works' so far have made a dent, then what exactly is it that you are expecting him to do?

[Urzon]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Nonsense, he could just use the Warden/Hawke/Shepard model and start in the small works. Sniffing out cases of isolated mages being hunted, helping them each in the same way the others gather companions. For each case helped attention is drawn towards it. The more people he help the more others will see, the more others will see the more will ask for his help.

Mind you, his enemies would hear of him as well and try to shut him down, but in that case he would prevail as a victor or die fighting as he wants to.

You mean like how Hawke can help isolated mages in his 10 years at being in Kirkwall? Where in every case, it has either done absolutly nothing or backfired in his/her face? It didn't help the mage situation in Kirkwall at all, and that was 10 years of Hawke possibly helping the mage cause, Anders writing his book, as well as strong Mage Underground, and possibly friendly nobles.

Your method might help things in the long run, long long run. Kirkwall is one thing, but we are talking about changing the way of thinking for Thedas as a whole. Which has being thinking that mages are a constant danger to everyone around them, and they should be put into Circles (and stay in Circles) for everyone's safety.  Your method could take decades, if not centuries. By then, Thedas would be a radically different place all together.

Modifié par Urzon, 12 septembre 2012 - 11:24 .

[Knight of Dane]

Plaintiff wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Nonsense, he could just use the Warden/Hawke/Shepard model and start in the small works. Sniffing out cases of isolated mages being hunted, helping them each in the same way the others gather companions. For each case helped attention is drawn towards it. The more people he help the more others will see, the more others will see the more will ask for his help.

He was already doing this, and he was also running a free clinic for the sick, homeless people of Darktown. It didn't work. The Chantry and Templar Order are aware of the good that magic and mages can do for society, and they don't care. They actively prevent such good from being done by keeping mages isolated from wider society.

Mages have proven their worth time and time again in wartime, and the Chantry shuts them back up again without so much as a thank you. The current system has stood for a millenium. Exactly what do you think Anders was going to change by committing 'good works' that are illegal and regarded as wrong by the majority of society?

The current system has stood for a millenium. Society has had enough to time to start using its brain and make reasonable changes. Enough is enough.

Mind you, his enemies would hear of him as well and try to shut him down, but in that case he would prevail as a victor or die fighting as he wants to.

And acheive nothing of consequence in either outcome.

The Warden ends the blight doing it like this, Shepard saves the Galaxy.

These situations are not at all comparable to the events of DA2. The Warden and Shepard are not dealing with major religious powers that actively repress them and eeveryone like them.

The idea was just in front of him and yet he keeps on writing that stupid memento as if anyone is going to read what a unknown apostate thinks about anything.

You mean like nobody read The Ninety-Five Theses by Martin Luther, which led to drastic religious reform?

Make up your mind: Can Anders change society with reasonable arguments or not? If he can't, and none of his 'good works' so far have made a dent, then what exactly is it that you are expecting him to do?

Let me be clear: I am pro-mage, you have no need to lecture me in their plight.

Going on...
Of course it's compareable to the Warden/Shepard situation, look through your fingers man. Shepard works practically alone until the reapers hit but still got his work done. The Warden was opposed almost all the places s/he went but still gathered allies.

No matter how opressed a people are, there will still be those able and ready to fight. Anders fault was that when he tried the route he just helped "people." He didn't focus on mages such as i say he should.
When Anders joined Hawke he laid down any possibility at being a leader himself, he let himself become a shadow of Hawke. Had Anders never met Hawke he might have been able to rally other mages around him, perhaps even Thrask and the templars that belevied in cooperation. But he was never of that mind.

[Knight of Dane]

Urzon wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Nonsense, he could just use the Warden/Hawke/Shepard model and start in the small works. Sniffing out cases of isolated mages being hunted, helping them each in the same way the others gather companions. For each case helped attention is drawn towards it. The more people he help the more others will see, the more others will see the more will ask for his help.

Mind you, his enemies would hear of him as well and try to shut him down, but in that case he would prevail as a victor or die fighting as he wants to.

You mean like how Hawke can help isolated mages in his 10 years at being in Kirkwall? Where in every case, it has either done absolutly nothing or backfired in his/her face? It didn't help the mage situation in Kirkwall at all, and that was 10 years of Hawke possibly helping the mage cause, Anders writing his book, as well as strong Mage Underground, and possibly friendly nobles.

Your method might help things in the long run, long long run. Kirkwall is one thing, but we are talking about changing the way of thinking for Thedas as a whole. Which has being thinking that mages are a constant danger to everyone around them, and they should be put into Circles (and stay in Circles) for everyone's safety.  Your method could take decades, if not centuries. By then, Thedas would be a radically different place all together.

Hawke doesn't fight for the mage plight until the very end if you will it.

[Fiacre]

I'm pretty sure my Hawke helped every Apostate he ran into that could be helped...

And it isn't comparable to the Warden. Well, I don't know what yours was going, but mine went to a bunch of factions, was all "A favour for a favour, yes?" And kicked some arse for them so they'd kick some arse for him later on. There was nothing ideological whatsoever about it. No one of note actually believes the accusations against the Wardens. The Warden ends the Blight by making people owe him; and those people actually knew, even before he came along, that Darkspawn are pretty damn dangerous. I really don't see how he can be likened to Anders and his fight for the mages.

[Knight of Dane]

Helping whatever apostates you happen to fall upon is different than actually fighting the fight for mage freedom. Anyone who isn't an idiot knows that action and ideology is two different things.

And the model of work is not based on ideology and I never said it was Fiarce, but there is no reason that it couldn't work for Anders as well short of the fact that I personally find him incapable.
He would still meet opposition, the templars where in the Warden's stead it was Loghain.
He would also still be able to find help, there are many people who would fight for their freedom as well as against the blight.

[TheJediSaint]

When I played Hawke, his motivations of helping the mages were purely personal. Specifically to help Bethany, who was imprisoned in the Circle after the events of Act 1. Ideology had nothing to do with my Hawke choosing to side with the mages in the end. And my Hawke chose to kill Anders because Ander's actions placed Bethany in mortal danger.

[Ryzaki]

There's several reasons to kill him. My Hawke's mostly do it out of mercy and precaution. He's a possessed abomination with little to no control and rapidly losing his humanity at that point. Better just to put him down.At least then he can retain the little of himself he has left.

This is rivalry though.

Friendship anders gets killed because welp he's an abomination. Nothing worth saving. IMO anyway.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 septembre 2012 - 07:54 .

[Xilizhra]

Friendship anders gets killed because welp he's an abomination. Nothing worth saving. IMO anyway.

There's everything worth saving. He hasn't fallen into total madness yet and is still a fighter for the prime good cause at the moment.

[Silfren]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

You can reform the chantry without destroying it and those that live within.

When those people think they have "domination over mages by divine right," I don't agree.

But not all of them beleive that for the makers sake. The entire reasoning for the mages to rebel is because "we do not all summon demons" and that the circle is unjust, then why the hell should they just assume that every chantry sister wants to opress them like that.

Anders died a hypocrite.

Like it or not, when a group of people has to go to war in order to gain their freedom, that means that good, innocent people are going to die.  It doesn't matter whether that's good, bad, right or wrong.  It is GOING to happen.  It HAS happened, in every war in history that has ever been fought, including those for which few people would seriously argue the cause was not just.  There are always going to be people who would BENEFIT from a victorious war for freedom, who don't want that war.  There are always going to be people who are technically on the side of the oppressive regime (i.e. the Chantry laypersons and low-ranking priests) who get caught in the crossfire even if they aren't actively oppressing anyone, and don't even support that oppression.  This is just how war is.  There's nothing unique about what Anders did or what his cause involved--EVERY. FREAKING. WAR. involves it.  There are always people on the rebellion's side who don't want to rebel, and those who get lumped in with the oppressor through no fault of their own.  

That is just how war is...EVEN when that war is justified.  Point to any war in real world history and I guarantee you you'll not find any exceptions.  That does not mean, however, that a war isn't a good thing, however, if war alone is the only means by which freedom for an oppressed people can be attained. 

This is not about the god damn whole war, this is about Anders, only Anders, not anyone else, blowing up a religious building with people inside of it.

I have no illusions towards civilian casualties or the losses of war. Anders didn't need to bomb the chantry or at least not while those people were inside to start the war. He could have murdered Elthina in the streets if that was his point, she was his only real target. Then he's at least only be a bloody murderer.

Those that die on either side fighting in the mage/templar war chooses it themselves. Anders bomb was not a choise, it was a cowardly action that inflicted harm on those that hadn't threatened him personally.

The Chantry is not comparable to the little neighborhood church down the block.  It is a AS MUCH a political and military organization.  Insisting on viewing it solely as a harmless little church is pointless.  It has its own standing army and is equal to, if not greater in power, than entire nations. 

Anders would not have achieved the same effect if he had quietly murdered Elthina in the streets.  The Chantry itself was the target, not just her.  Grand Cleric Elthina was a valid target, true enough, but so was the Chantry itself, representing, as it does, aforementioned military-political complex.

Anders bomb was not a choice?  Well, yes it was.  I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.  You might not have liked the action and may consider it cowardly, but of course it was an acceptable choice.  You need to bear in mind that the world of Thedas is not one in which the average person has the means to effect change through the same non-violent means available to people living in first world nations of the real world.  We have lore indicating that people have tried to get the Chantry to change, and repeatedly get told "No."  There comes a point where, as the blood mage pointed out in Origins, "Someone always has to take the first step.  Force a change, no matter the cost."  When the people in power refuse to listen to peaceful attempts at changing, because they have all the power in the relationship and therefore don't HAVE to listen, then forceful, bloody means are the only remaining alternative.

Modifié par Silfren, 12 septembre 2012 - 08:33 .

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...

Friendship anders gets killed because welp he's an abomination. Nothing worth saving. IMO anyway.

There's everything worth saving. He hasn't fallen into total madness yet and is still a fighter for the prime good cause at the moment.

To you perhaps. To me no everything isn't worth saving and Friendship Anders is one of those things.

[thats1evildude]

Anders' sanity quietly checks itself out halfway through Act 3. When he was spouting off about how his sacrifice will inspire future generations, I could only think "Anders, you have effing lost it."

I'm pleased to see that, by the time of Asunder, no one remembers Anders as anything but a madman.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 12 septembre 2012 - 08:36 .

[Renmiri1]

The Warden had centuries old treaties and the tradition / weight of one of the most respected orders of Thedas BACKING him. Anders had the Chantry and Templars, respected orders in Thedas AGAINST him. Do not compare their plight, it is patently a false comparison. If anything, Anders' plight is the opposite of the Warden's

[sg1fan75]

Yes OP best part of the game. Knife in the gut.

[Lazy Jer]

Renmiri1 wrote...

The Warden had centuries old treaties and the tradition / weight of one of the most respected orders of Thedas BACKING him. Anders had the Chantry and Templars, respected orders in Thedas AGAINST him. Do not compare their plight, it is patently a false comparison. If anything, Anders' plight is the opposite of the Warden's

To be fair, he also had Loghain framing him, offering bounties on his head, and turning the better half of Ferelden's nobility against him/her.  That, after all, is the major reason he had to get help from the Dwarves, the Elves and Redcliffe.  Most everyone else was hearing Loghain's mini-manifestos in Denerium.  So let's not make it seem like the Warden shouted "Ten HUT!" and had everyone marching and singing "Over There!".

Plus, the Grey Wardens weren't all that well respected at the beginning of the game, or else Duncan wouldn't have been scrambling so much for recruits.

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 12 septembre 2012 - 09:07 .

[Knight of Dane]

Silfren wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

You can reform the chantry without destroying it and those that live within.

When those people think they have "domination over mages by divine right," I don't agree.

But not all of them beleive that for the makers sake. The entire reasoning for the mages to rebel is because "we do not all summon demons" and that the circle is unjust, then why the hell should they just assume that every chantry sister wants to opress them like that.

Anders died a hypocrite.

Like it or not, when a group of people has to go to war in order to gain their freedom, that means that good, innocent people are going to die.  It doesn't matter whether that's good, bad, right or wrong.  It is GOING to happen.  It HAS happened, in every war in history that has ever been fought, including those for which few people would seriously argue the cause was not just.  There are always going to be people who would BENEFIT from a victorious war for freedom, who don't want that war.  There are always going to be people who are technically on the side of the oppressive regime (i.e. the Chantry laypersons and low-ranking priests) who get caught in the crossfire even if they aren't actively oppressing anyone, and don't even support that oppression.  This is just how war is.  There's nothing unique about what Anders did or what his cause involved--EVERY. FREAKING. WAR. involves it.  There are always people on the rebellion's side who don't want to rebel, and those who get lumped in with the oppressor through no fault of their own.  

That is just how war is...EVEN when that war is justified.  Point to any war in real world history and I guarantee you you'll not find any exceptions.  That does not mean, however, that a war isn't a good thing, however, if war alone is the only means by which freedom for an oppressed people can be attained. 

This is not about the god damn whole war, this is about Anders, only Anders, not anyone else, blowing up a religious building with people inside of it.

I have no illusions towards civilian casualties or the losses of war. Anders didn't need to bomb the chantry or at least not while those people were inside to start the war. He could have murdered Elthina in the streets if that was his point, she was his only real target. Then he's at least only be a bloody murderer.

Those that die on either side fighting in the mage/templar war chooses it themselves. Anders bomb was not a choise, it was a cowardly action that inflicted harm on those that hadn't threatened him personally.

The Chantry is not comparable to the little neighborhood church down the block.  It is a AS MUCH a political and military organization.  Insisting on viewing it solely as a harmless little church is pointless.  It has its own standing army and is equal to, if not greater in power, than entire nations. 

Of course it is, the Catholic church has lead crusades in its name to secure holy lands killing innocent people along the way. It's not compareable to your local priesthood, sure but we live in a modern society where there is no magic.

Silfren wrote... 
Anders would not have achieved the same effect if he had quietly murdered Elthina in the streets.  The Chantry itself was the target, not just her.  Grand Cleric Elthina was a valid target, true enough, but so was the Chantry itself, representing, as it does, aforementioned military-political complex.

 
He shouldn't need the same effect. And I'm not talking about a quiet assassination, those are made to draw as little attention as possible, I'm not and idiot. But firing a firebolt through her stomach in the middle of the streets would have had a similar effect. Meredith would invoke annulment and Orsino would resist.

Silfren wrote...  
Anders bomb was not a choice?  Well, yes it was.  I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.  You might not have liked the action and may consider it cowardly, but of course it was an acceptable choice.

  
No it wasn't

Silfren wrote...   
You need to bear in mind that the world of Thedas is not one in which the average person has the means to effect change through the same non-violent means available to people living in first world nations of the real world.  We have lore indicating that people have tried to get the Chantry to change, and repeatedly get told "No."  There comes a point where, as the blood mage pointed out in Origins, "Someone always has to take the first step.  Force a change, no matter the cost."  When the people in power refuse to listen to peaceful attempts at changing, because they have all the power in the relationship and therefore don't HAVE to listen, then forceful, bloody means are the only remaining alternative.

I'm not arguing that change doesn't come unless someone forces the issue, I'm saying that Anders was a tactical moron that betrayed everyone when he blew up that building.

[Ryzaki]

thats1evildude wrote...

Anders' sanity quietly checks itself out halfway through Act 3. When he was spouting off about how his sacrifice will inspire future generations, I could only think "Anders, you have effing lost it."

I'm pleased to see that, by the time of Asunder, no one remembers Anders as anything but a madman.

That pleases me as well. That's what his crazy self should be remembered as.

[Xilizhra]

Ryzaki wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

Anders' sanity quietly checks itself out halfway through Act 3. When he was spouting off about how his sacrifice will inspire future generations, I could only think "Anders, you have effing lost it."

I'm pleased to see that, by the time of Asunder, no one remembers Anders as anything but a madman.

That pleases me as well. That's what his crazy self should be remembered as.

It's also inaccurate. Some in-universe still consider him to have a point, even if they disagree with the specific action.

[erilben]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Silfren wrote... 
Anders would not have achieved the same effect if he had quietly murdered Elthina in the streets.  The Chantry itself was the target, not just her.  Grand Cleric Elthina was a valid target, true enough, but so was the Chantry itself, representing, as it does, aforementioned military-political complex.

 
He shouldn't need the same effect. And I'm not talking about a quiet assassination, those are made to draw as little attention as possible, I'm not and idiot. But firing a firebolt through her stomach in the middle of the streets would have had a similar effect. Meredith would invoke annulment and Orsino would resist.

Killing Elthina alone isn't enough. The knight-commander can't invoke an annulment without the grand cleric's authorization. If the GC dies, the KC needs authorization from a ranking revered mother. If there's no GC or ranking mother, then the authority goes to Meredith.