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[Knight of Dane]

erilben wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Silfren wrote... 
Anders would not have achieved the same effect if he had quietly murdered Elthina in the streets.  The Chantry itself was the target, not just her.  Grand Cleric Elthina was a valid target, true enough, but so was the Chantry itself, representing, as it does, aforementioned military-political complex.

 
He shouldn't need the same effect. And I'm not talking about a quiet assassination, those are made to draw as little attention as possible, I'm not and idiot. But firing a firebolt through her stomach in the middle of the streets would have had a similar effect. Meredith would invoke annulment and Orsino would resist.

Killing Elthina alone isn't enough. The knight-commander can't invoke an annulment without the grand cleric's authorization. If the GC dies, the KC needs authorization from a ranking revered mother. If there's no GC or ranking mother, then the authority goes to Meredith.

No it doesn't it goes to the devine. It is never in the hands of a templar to decide the right.
Besides, I doubt all mothers and sisters were inside the chantry when it blew up, they patrol the streets too, if it was the case as you say then nothing really stopped Meredith anyway.

[erilben]

Knight of Dane wrote...

erilben wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Silfren wrote... 
Anders would not have achieved the same effect if he had quietly murdered Elthina in the streets.  The Chantry itself was the target, not just her.  Grand Cleric Elthina was a valid target, true enough, but so was the Chantry itself, representing, as it does, aforementioned military-political complex.

 
He shouldn't need the same effect. And I'm not talking about a quiet assassination, those are made to draw as little attention as possible, I'm not and idiot. But firing a firebolt through her stomach in the middle of the streets would have had a similar effect. Meredith would invoke annulment and Orsino would resist.

Killing Elthina alone isn't enough. The knight-commander can't invoke an annulment without the grand cleric's authorization. If the GC dies, the KC needs authorization from a ranking revered mother. If there's no GC or ranking mother, then the authority goes to Meredith.

No it doesn't it goes to the devine. It is never in the hands of a templar to decide the right.
Besides, I doubt all mothers and sisters were inside the chantry when it blew up, they patrol the streets too, if it was the case as you say then nothing really stopped Meredith anyway.

DG confrim that is how it works, and he said that Meredith legally invoked the annulment.

Why didn't Meredith just invoke an annulment anyway? I don't know. Meredith wanted badly to invoke an annulment, but Elthina wouldn't approve it because there's no proof the circle is corrupt. If you had been siding with templars, you learn about this. Meredith sends you to try to find evidence that will convince Elthinia the Circle needs to be annulled. Meredith wasn't willing to go against the GC for some reason.

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

Anders' sanity quietly checks itself out halfway through Act 3. When he was spouting off about how his sacrifice will inspire future generations, I could only think "Anders, you have effing lost it."

I'm pleased to see that, by the time of Asunder, no one remembers Anders as anything but a madman.

That pleases me as well. That's what his crazy self should be remembered as.

It's also inaccurate. Some in-universe still consider him to have a point, even if they disagree with the specific action.

Still a madman and he doesn't deserve his matryism. So it's for the best IMO.

[Xilizhra]

Luckily for me, he's not a martyr. There's time for him to be vindicated.

[Knight of Dane]

erilben wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

erilben wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Silfren wrote... 
Anders would not have achieved the same effect if he had quietly murdered Elthina in the streets.  The Chantry itself was the target, not just her.  Grand Cleric Elthina was a valid target, true enough, but so was the Chantry itself, representing, as it does, aforementioned military-political complex.

 
He shouldn't need the same effect. And I'm not talking about a quiet assassination, those are made to draw as little attention as possible, I'm not and idiot. But firing a firebolt through her stomach in the middle of the streets would have had a similar effect. Meredith would invoke annulment and Orsino would resist.

Killing Elthina alone isn't enough. The knight-commander can't invoke an annulment without the grand cleric's authorization. If the GC dies, the KC needs authorization from a ranking revered mother. If there's no GC or ranking mother, then the authority goes to Meredith.

No it doesn't it goes to the devine. It is never in the hands of a templar to decide the right.
Besides, I doubt all mothers and sisters were inside the chantry when it blew up, they patrol the streets too, if it was the case as you say then nothing really stopped Meredith anyway.

DG confrim that is how it works, and he said that Meredith legally invoked the annulment.

Why didn't Meredith just invoke an annulment anyway? I don't know. Meredith wanted badly to invoke an annulment, but Elthina wouldn't approve it because there's no proof the circle is corrupt. If you had been siding with templars, you learn about this. Meredith sends you to try to find evidence that will convince Elthinia the Circle needs to be annulled. Meredith wasn't willing to go against the GC for some reason.

You are right, i found the link myself.
http://social.biowar...ex/6981321&lf=8 

David Gaider wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Please show us where the Right of Annulment can only be granted if evidence is presented in a court of law or something rather than a judgement call on the Knight-Commander's part which can be supported or denied by the Grand Cleric.

So long as the Grand Cleric was alive and refused Meredith's request for the Right of Annulment, Meredith's only option was to appeal to the Divine. Once the Grand Cleric was dead, and no immediate successor in evidence, Meredith had the legal authority she needed.

This does not mean the Divine could not theoretically call her to the mat later on for choosing wrongly... and one could argue that she was morally obligated to wait for the Divine's answer, but she certainly wasn't legally obligated to do so. Beyond that, one can conjecture until the cows come home with regards to what the repercussions of such a decision would be.

 

[Fiacre]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Helping whatever apostates you happen to fall upon is different than actually fighting the fight for mage freedom. Anyone who isn't an idiot knows that action and ideology is two different things.

And the model of work is not based on ideology and I never said it was Fiarce, but there is no reason that it couldn't work for Anders as well short of the fact that I personally find him incapable.
He would still meet opposition, the templars where in the Warden's stead it was Loghain.
He would also still be able to find help, there are many people who would fight for their freedom as well as against the blight.

What model of work? The Warden didn't need to show people that the Darkspawn are dangerous, people already knew. The only one really important that turned against the Warden was Loghain. And whatever the Bannorn might have done is a mute point, because it was too busy fighting a civil war with Loghain, the man with the largest army left (except maybe Howe, who controlled the Coastlands, after all).

otherwise, the Warden has the treaties, and they're his only chance because Ferelden alone couldn't have won and was tearing itself apart, anyway. Arl Eamon? Has his own reasons to help the Warden -- the Warden saving him is hardly the only one. The elves? Never believed Loghain's lies -- if they even heard of them -- and helped because a) treaty, and owed the Warden. The Werewolves? Owed the Warden. The dwarves? Treaty, and the dwarves always fight the 'Spawn -- and if you choose Bhelen, it's pretty much a matter of course, the man wants to stop the Blight. The mages? Owe you + treaty. The Templars? Also owe you and don't really have much to do with the Circle annulled, aside from protecting Ferelden. Neither Greagoir nor Irving give much of a **** aboiut what Loghain says -- when you first go to the tower Greagoir just complains about the Warden's endless need for men, but says that it's their right.

Really, I don't see how Anders is supposed to do the same -- there are no fancy treaties, no common threat like the 'Spawn -- and mages themselves are seen as a threat -- and he can hardly make all of Thedas owe him so they'll help fight the Chantry and Templars.


As for Hawke, my Hawke's have been firmly pro-mage ideologically and have done everything pro mage that they could (unless you think siding with Larius is anti mage, but even Anders agrees with doing that). That the game doesn't give me more options to show that Hawke is fighting on the mage's side is, if anything, a fault with the game; it doesn't change the allegiance and ideology it does let you establish for your Hawke. And in any case, there are quite a few pro mage things you can do -- imho, it's actually easier to be actively pro mages than pro Templars, considering that a pro Templar character can't turn Anders and Merrill, and abomination and a blood mage, in.

[Renmiri1]

Huh ? kindle search for Anders on Asunder
3 results

• ".. something to celebrate but the badlanders.." - irrelevant
• ".. not going to condone what Anders did, Fiona said, But I understand why he did it" - 
  location 5008 if you have cloud reader -  Wynne calls Anders a madman, Fiona disagrees Anders is a madman and understands why he did it
• ".. rebellion. A mage named Anders had slain the Grand Cleric and set of a series.."  - 
  location 5934 if you have cloud reader - Rhys says Anders did it for the good of all mages in a desperate situation

To say that the book condemned Anders as a madman is blatantly false

Modifié par Renmiri1, 12 septembre 2012 - 10:29 .

[Knight of Dane]

Fiacre wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Helping whatever apostates you happen to fall upon is different than actually fighting the fight for mage freedom. Anyone who isn't an idiot knows that action and ideology is two different things.

And the model of work is not based on ideology and I never said it was Fiarce, but there is no reason that it couldn't work for Anders as well short of the fact that I personally find him incapable.
He would still meet opposition, the templars where in the Warden's stead it was Loghain.
He would also still be able to find help, there are many people who would fight for their freedom as well as against the blight.

What model of work? The Warden didn't need to show people that the Darkspawn are dangerous, people already knew. The only one really important that turned against the Warden was Loghain. And whatever the Bannorn might have done is a mute point, because it was too busy fighting a civil war with Loghain, the man with the largest army left (except maybe Howe, who controlled the Coastlands, after all).

 
Anders doesn't need to show people of his plight either. As I already said, he should find those that would support him just as the Warden did.

Fiacre wrote... 
otherwise, the Warden has the treaties, and they're his only chance because Ferelden alone couldn't have won and was tearing itself apart, anyway. Arl Eamon? Has his own reasons to help the Warden -- the Warden saving him is hardly the only one. The elves? Never believed Loghain's lies -- if they even heard of them -- and helped because a) treaty, and owed the Warden. The Werewolves? Owed the Warden. The dwarves? Treaty, and the dwarves always fight the 'Spawn -- and if you choose Bhelen, it's pretty much a matter of course, the man wants to stop the Blight. The mages? Owe you + treaty. The Templars? Also owe you and don't really have much to do with the Circle annulled, aside from protecting Ferelden. Neither Greagoir nor Irving give much of a **** aboiut what Loghain says -- when you first go to the tower Greagoir just complains about the Warden's endless need for men, but says that it's their right.

Again my point wasn't that Anders needed to convince anyone to go with him but that he should gather those that share hsi beleiifs or part of them.

Fiacre wrote...  
Really, I don't see how Anders is supposed to do the same -- there are no fancy treaties, no common threat like the 'Spawn -- and mages themselves are seen as a threat -- and he can hardly make all of Thedas owe him so they'll help fight the Chantry and Templars.

 
He doesn't need all of Thedas. What he wants is for the mages to fight for their right, get it or die trying. H eonly needs the mages, and many of them agree with him.

Fiacre wrote... 
As for Hawke, my Hawke's have been firmly pro-mage ideologically and have done everything pro mage that they could (unless you think siding with Larius is anti mage, but even Anders agrees with doing that). That the game doesn't give me more options to show that Hawke is fighting on the mage's side is, if anything, a fault with the game; it doesn't change the allegiance and ideology it does let you establish for your Hawke. And in any case, there are quite a few pro mage things you can do -- imho, it's actually easier to be actively pro mages than pro Templars, considering that a pro Templar character can't turn Anders and Merrill, and abomination and a blood mage, in.

That's why I mentioned the Warden specifically and didn't highlight Hawke for s/he is not our character. We are simply not allowed to do anything other than express support and help out in a few select cases, for that was not the role the developers wanted Hawke to have.

[Fiacre]

The Warden has actually allies he can turn to that would, and do, suffice. Anders does not. Anders has the majority of Thedas against him because of the Chantry's teachings and anything he does without showing the majority the plight of the mages, cannot succeed.

What Anders did might not have been smart -- I see problems with it (like the majority possibly thinking even worse of mages as a result) -- but your idea of fighting this fight is simply not feasible. A mage Warden can have the Fereldan monarch on their side and still fail to liberate the Fereldan Circle because the Chantry says no and the Chantry is backed by the majority. Open conflict needed to happen and people needed to be made to choose, and needed to know what was going on, because the Chantry is a too powerful enemy to defeat otherwise.

And personally, I don't see the point in fighting a revolution doomed from the start. Might as well go about it in a way that actually has a chance of working, whatever that way is.

And Ithink DA2 still allows you quite a bit, at least when you're pro-mage. For example, I'm currently playing an agressive Hawke who'll side with Petrice against the Qunari specifically because of the way they treat their mages, and only uses Petrice's fanaticism to fight people he finds to be as bad, if not worse, than the Templars.

Modifié par Fiacre, 12 septembre 2012 - 10:38 .

[Knight of Dane]

Fiacre wrote...

The Warden has actually allies he can turn to that would, and do, suffice. Anders does not. Anders has the majority of Thedas against him because of the Chantry's teachings and anything he does without showing the majority the plight of the mages, cannot succeed.

What Anders did might not have been smart -- I see problems with it (like the majority possibly thinking even worse of mages as a result) -- but your idea of fighting this fight is simply not feasible. A mage Warden can have the Fereldan monarch on their side and still fail to liberate the Fereldan Circle because the Chantry says no and the Chantry is backed by the majority. Open conflict needed to happen and people needed to be made to choose, and needed to know what was going on, because the Chantry is a too powerful enemy to defeat otherwise.

And personally, I don't see the point in fighting a revolution doomed from the start. Might as well go about it in a way that actually has a chance of working, whatever that way is.

And Ithink DA2 still allows you quite a bit, at least when you're pro-mage. For example, I'm currently playing an agressive Hawke who'll side with Petrice against the Qunari specifically because of the way they treat their mages, and only uses Petrice's fanaticism to fight people he finds to be as bad, if not worse, than the Templars.

The Warden has an idea of possible allies s/he can turn to, s/he still has to actually recruit them, and that takes a whole lot of dealings. If the treaties worked as they should have then the Dwarves the mages and the Elves all would just had helped without all the work.
It works the same way for Anders in a scenario where he chooses to do it like this. He needs to find possible allies, none are ever sure but still he tries. Those he find he help the same way Hawke helps him, afterwards they see that Anders gets things done and join up with him.

[DPSSOC]

Plaintiff wrote...
A fair enough point, but I don't see another way to go about it. Anders spent seven years writing, re-writing and spreading his manifesto around the city. He tried to use logic, he tried to be reasonable. Not only was he ignored, but the situation got steadily worse.

We don't know that.  We're never given the opportunity to read it, we have no idea if it was logical, reasonable, or even coherent.  For all we know, and given Anders condition it wouldn't surprise me, the manifesto was a tirade of demands being written by two madmen.  I highly doubt that Anders was being reasonable all those years, because he's never been able to accept any kind of compromise.  Refusing to offer even a sliver of negotiation is not being reasonable, and considering the mages highly disadvantaged bargaining position it could be viewed as downright insane.

Plaintiff wrote...
Nothing was going to change without a drastic, violent action to shake the balance of power. It didn't have to be Anders, it didn't even have to be Kirkwall, but then DA2 would be a different game.

Agreed, like I said I just think Anders could have, and should have, made a narrower declaration of war.  As it stands he's declared to the world on behalf of all mages that you're either with them or against them, that is not a stance that wins friends.  It can work when you're in a position that people can't afford (militarily, economically, diplomatically, etc.) to not work with you, but not when you're the underdog, the upstart.

[Fiacre]

Knight of Dane wrote...

The Warden has an idea of possible allies s/he can turn to, s/he still has to actually recruit them, and that takes a whole lot of dealings. If the treaties worked as they should have then the Dwarves the mages and the Elves all would just had helped without all the work.
It works the same way for Anders in a scenario where he chooses to do it like this. He needs to find possible allies, none are ever sure but still he tries. Those he find he help the same way Hawke helps him, afterwards they see that Anders gets things done and join up with him.

The problem is that none of the factions the Warden has treaties for are in any shape to help at first. Zathrian's clan is the only one the Warden can find because Dalish aen't everywhere -- and since that clan is in no shape to help r contact the others unless you do something about the werewolve curse, the treaty alone isn't sufficient. The dwarves have no King and first -- similarly to Ferelden -- need a new moanrch to lead them during the war; without one, they simply can't help the Warden, no matter how much they might wan to. The mages are busy being slaughtered, bit hard to kill Darkwpawn before the warden helps them.

And what allies would Anders call on that would be suffcient to fight the war? Almost all of Thedas is against him because of the Chantry's teachings. The mages allies simply aren't numerous enough. The Warden method doesn't work for the mage cause because Anders does not have any allies some fancies treaties tell him he could ask.

[Knight of Dane]

Fiacre wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

The Warden has an idea of possible allies s/he can turn to, s/he still has to actually recruit them, and that takes a whole lot of dealings. If the treaties worked as they should have then the Dwarves the mages and the Elves all would just had helped without all the work.
It works the same way for Anders in a scenario where he chooses to do it like this. He needs to find possible allies, none are ever sure but still he tries. Those he find he help the same way Hawke helps him, afterwards they see that Anders gets things done and join up with him.

The problem is that none of the factions the Warden has treaties for are in any shape to help at first. Zathrian's clan is the only one the Warden can find because Dalish aen't everywhere -- and since that clan is in no shape to help r contact the others unless you do something about the werewolve curse, the treaty alone isn't sufficient. The dwarves have no King and first -- similarly to Ferelden -- need a new moanrch to lead them during the war; without one, they simply can't help the Warden, no matter how much they might wan to. The mages are busy being slaughtered, bit hard to kill Darkwpawn before the warden helps them.

And what allies would Anders call on that would be suffcient to fight the war? Almost all of Thedas is against him because of the Chantry's teachings. The mages allies simply aren't numerous enough. The Warden method doesn't work for the mage cause because Anders does not have any allies some fancies treaties tell him he could ask.

Anders wouldn't call for allies if he worked the rebellion like this. He would have to slowly build a squad then into a unit and slowly spread influence and fame. He would have to sniff out the people he need to get it going and then eventually lead it to greater influence in the underworld.

[Fiacre]

And how would that help fighting an institution like the Chantry? I really don't see how that method is supposed to achieve anything.

[LobselVith8]

Knight of Dane wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

When those people think they have "domination over mages by divine right," I don't agree.

But not all of them beleive that for the makers sake.

Edmund Burke said, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

Knight of Dane wrote...

The entire reasoning for the mages to rebel is because "we do not all summon demons" and that the circle is unjust, then why the hell should they just assume that every chantry sister wants to opress them like that.

Anders died a hypocrite.

The reason the mages rebel is because there are people who don't want to be forced into servitude to the Chantry. When faced with the choice to submit and be a slave, or resist and strive for freedom, not everyone will capitulate to the Chantry and it's army. If Anders' actions lead to the emancipation of millions of men, women, and children across Thedas (after nearly a millennia of subjugation), then he helped free his people.

[Knight of Dane]

 

Fiacre wrote...

And how would that help fighting an institution like the Chantry? I really don't see how that method is supposed to achieve anything.

Then you are blind. I'm not sayin that the solution is better but you don't have to be very smart to see that building alliances from scratch can work however slow it might be.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

When those people think they have "domination over mages by divine right," I don't agree.

But not all of them beleive that for the makers sake.

Edmund Burke said, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

And I say fight with dignity and you shall have victory.

LobselVith8 wrote... 

Knight of Dane wrote...

The entire reasoning for the mages to rebel is because "we do not all summon demons" and that the circle is unjust, then why the hell should they just assume that every chantry sister wants to opress them like that.

Anders died a hypocrite.

The reason the mages rebel is because there are people who don't want to be forced into servitude to the Chantry. When faced with the choice to submit and be a slave, or resist and strive for freedom, not everyone will capitulate to the Chantry and it's army. If Anders' actions lead to the emancipation of millions of men, women, and children across Thedas (after nearly a millennia of subjugation), then he helped free his people.

I know why they rebel goddammit that's not the point og my argument. And I'm nopt saying Anders actions won't push things for a change, I'm just saying that he could have acheived it without harming innocents.

Modifié par Knight of Dane, 13 septembre 2012 - 01:52 .

[Renmiri1]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Anders wouldn't call for allies if he worked the rebellion like this. He would have to slowly build a squad then into a unit and slowly spread influence and fame. He would have to sniff out the people he need to get it going and then eventually lead it to greater influence in the underworld.

You do realize that a proccess like you describe takes a long time, no ? 

Anders only has 30 years before his Calling, and patience has never been his (and Justice's) strong suit. 

Anders is impulsive, impatient and passionate. Not the kind of guy that would be able to do this slow army building work. King Marric maybe could do it, thoiugh his armies to retake Ferelden were mostly built by his mother before him.

There are several paths to freedom from slavery. Some are slower and have less risk of civilian casualties. Doesn't mean they are the only way. This is a game where anything that dies is just pixels  don't fret too much about those dead templars.. They deserve it.. as much as the countless bandits Hawke's party killed.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 13 septembre 2012 - 01:54 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

DPSSOC wrote...

Agreed, like I said I just think Anders could have, and should have, made a narrower declaration of war.  As it stands he's declared to the world on behalf of all mages that you're either with them or against them, that is not a stance that wins friends.  It can work when you're in a position that people can't afford (militarily, economically, diplomatically, etc.) to not work with you, but not when you're the underdog, the upstart.

It's more complicated than that. Firstly, the Chantry as the parent organization of the Templars and the one that gave them orders isn't uninvolved in this. You can go on about innocent civilians all you want but this was similar to someone who was against Kirkwal blowing up the Keep, along with whatever innocent bureaucrats and chambermaids happened to be inside. The Chantry being a religious organization can't and shouldn't protect it as long as it has a military force and uses it offensively.

Secondly, most people who aren't Meredith recognize that Anders' actions had nothing to do with any other mage and that Meredith's attempt to kill other mages for it is ridiculous and just plain evil. Part of Anders' plan was to ensure the mage cause would have sympathy by demonstrating the insane response of the Templars.

Thirdly, Anders' method also served to ensure that all mages would either join the war or at least leave the Circles. It also led the Templars to rebel, effectively destroying the Chantry's ability to prosecute people it doesn't like and removing the Templars' legitimacy. I'd call that a smart move.

[LobselVith8]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Nonsense, he could just use the Warden/Hawke/Shepard model and start in the small works. Sniffing out cases of isolated mages being hunted, helping them each in the same way the others gather companions. For each case helped attention is drawn towards it. The more people he help the more others will see, the more others will see the more will ask for his help.

Mind you, his enemies would hear of him as well and try to shut him down, but in that case he would prevail as a victor or die fighting as he wants to.

The Warden ends the blight doing it like this, Shepard saves the Galaxy.
The idea was just in front of him and yet he keeps on writing that stupid memento as if anyone is going to read what a unknown apostate thinks about anything.

Considering The Warden can vary, depending on the player, there's no set model. My Surana Warden agreed with the Libertarians in the Magi Origin, helped the Mages' Collective protect apostates (even through violent means), asked for his people to be emancipated from the Chantry and the Order of Templars, and argued with Wynne in the City of Amaranthine that mages need to seek out their freedom even in the face of violence from the Chantry (which is Wynne's argument against breaking free from the Chantry, as she argues that the Chantry would rather kill all the mages rather than see them free), because they would never be liberated otherwise.

[TEWR]

DPSSOC wrote...


We don't know that. We're never given the opportunity to read it, we have no idea if it was logical, reasonable, or even coherent. For all we know, and given Anders condition it wouldn't surprise me, the manifesto was a tirade of demands being written by two madmen. I highly doubt that Anders was being reasonable all those years, because he's never been able to accept any kind of compromise. Refusing to offer even a sliver of negotiation is not being reasonable, and considering the mages highly disadvantaged bargaining position it could be viewed as downright insane

On the Rivalry path he'll tell you a little about what he's written. It's not much, but if we were to use that as a means of trying to understand the entire bulk of it, it would basically be summed up as different interpretations and beliefs of Chantry dogma that should be examined, debated, and studied.

Obviously, they're pro-mage interpretations.

I forget exactly what his line was in that path -- only Rivaled him once, and it was as a pro-mage/anti-Anders person so that method was ruined due to Anders not recognizing the distinction and going on about things that didn't happen.

EDIT: Well... not the entire manifesto anyway. I'm sure that as he started to lose his fight to Justice/Vengeance in the years between Act 2 and Act 3, he probably started scribbling more violent things.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 septembre 2012 - 04:41 .

[Silfren]

erilben wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

erilben wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Silfren wrote... 
Anders would not have achieved the same effect if he had quietly murdered Elthina in the streets.  The Chantry itself was the target, not just her.  Grand Cleric Elthina was a valid target, true enough, but so was the Chantry itself, representing, as it does, aforementioned military-political complex.

 
He shouldn't need the same effect. And I'm not talking about a quiet assassination, those are made to draw as little attention as possible, I'm not and idiot. But firing a firebolt through her stomach in the middle of the streets would have had a similar effect. Meredith would invoke annulment and Orsino would resist.

Killing Elthina alone isn't enough. The knight-commander can't invoke an annulment without the grand cleric's authorization. If the GC dies, the KC needs authorization from a ranking revered mother. If there's no GC or ranking mother, then the authority goes to Meredith.

No it doesn't it goes to the devine. It is never in the hands of a templar to decide the right.
Besides, I doubt all mothers and sisters were inside the chantry when it blew up, they patrol the streets too, if it was the case as you say then nothing really stopped Meredith anyway.

DG confrim that is how it works, and he said that Meredith legally invoked the annulment.

Why didn't Meredith just invoke an annulment anyway? I don't know. Meredith wanted badly to invoke an annulment, but Elthina wouldn't approve it because there's no proof the circle is corrupt. If you had been siding with templars, you learn about this. Meredith sends you to try to find evidence that will convince Elthinia the Circle needs to be annulled. Meredith wasn't willing to go against the GC for some reason.

Revered mothers don't have the right; it belongs either to the Grand Cleric or the Divine.  What Gaider confirmed is that in such a situation as Meredith was in, where the Grand Cleric was not available to grant the Right, and the Divine was far away, the Knight Commander has the right to determine that it is too serious an emergency to go through the normal process.  One would hope that investigative safeguards are in place to ensure that Knight Commanders don't simply use that clause to annul a Circle without adequate justification, but in any event, it's a rational provision to allow for circumstances that don't allow for the luxury of waiting through the time involved in requesting for authorization and receiving it

Meredith wasn't willing to go against the Grand Cleric because she could not legally do so without the Divine's consent.  That's what she didn't invoke the Right while Elthina was alive--I'm not sure what's so confusing about that.  She actually DID have the right to act on her own authority when Anders created the situation he did, but prior to that, she had no grounds to declare Annulment when the Grand Cleric refused it, and the Divine had not yet overruled the Grand Cleric's decision. 

[Renmiri1]

It was just a matter of minutes...

Meredith was set to search the Mage's quarters and we know Orsino had Quentin's necromancy research put aside somewhere in there.

Finding blood magic and necromancy in the First Enchanter's hands would give Meredith all the justification she needed to annul the Circle. That is probably why Orsino panicked and called the Champion to stop the search.

Anders surprise actions saved some mages. The entire Circle was going to be put to death by Meredith, as soon as the search revealed Quentin's stuff.

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...

Luckily for me, he's not a martyr. There's time for him to be vindicated.

Lucky for me he's dead. He can't kill anymore innocent people.

[Urzon]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Anders wouldn't call for allies if he worked the rebellion like this. He would have to slowly build a squad then into a unit and slowly spread influence and fame. He would have to sniff out the people he need to get it going and then eventually lead it to greater influence in the underworld.

He did, and it's called the Mage Underground. From their codex...



To Knight-Commander Meredith, re. the so-called "Mage Underground"
Every Circle in Thedas suffers from individual mages who rebel and attempt to flee. These apostates are usually found and returned to the Circle or mercifully killed if they have fallen to demonic temptation. Until now, I have never served anywhere that the populace does not fully cooperate in hunting these rebels.
Here in Kirkwall, citizens actually help rebel mages escape. Escaped apostates have survived their freedom long enough to form the "the mage underground," a network that feeds and shelters escapees and even transports apostates into remote areas of the Free Marches and beyond our easy reach.
As of late, the movement has grown bolder, sending raiding parties into the Gallows in an attempt to break out mages who lack the skills or willpower to escape on their own. This is a grave concern. My recommendation is to fight back, both physically and in turning the minds and hearts of their supporters against them.
—Knight-Captain Cullen

It helped mages, but not their situation persay. The people in Kirkwall helped the Underground because they had a mage relative, and they knew how the templars treated them. It didn't help that they were actually sending raiding parties into the Gallows. Which would only make the Mage/Templar conflict (for Kirkwall at least) worse for both parties. It showed that the mages were getting much more aggressive in their tactics, much like Anders was, and it makes the templars much more desperate to maintain control over the situation.

If anything, the underground in Ferelden had a much better method in mind, which was much more subtle.

[Zack_Nero]

I let Anders go, I never wanted to see him again, but I understood his reason and cause of that I joined the mages. But for some reason he joined up with me in the end, small error but that is what I ideally did. Let Anders go, never wanted to see him again, helped the mages. My DA2 ending.